71 replies to this topic

[R5D4]

Having played a few rounds in Jenner IIC-A I can say that the re-scale has effectively changed the 'feel' of the Mech' from that of a Light to a Medium. This is not a good thing from my point of view.

Look, I get the whole Volumetric approach to the scaling and how it adds up in the maths (more or less) and it probably makes sense in that respect. In respect to the gameplay and achieving that different 'feel' between the classes I'd say it's had the unintentional side-effect of making the Jenner's (IS and Clan) far too similar to Low end Medium Mech's

Speed, Agility, Size are what make Lights feel distinct but now with two of those things missing it just feels like a really bad Medium and yes I already know that only the Oxide got de-quirked but let's be honest here - a bigger body takes longer to move, turn, twist so yeah it feels like an agility nerf when you use it.

I would say the Jenner's and Jenner IIC's need some quirks now to help compensate for this unintentional (?) nerf but I'll be honest I HATE the quirk system in it's current incarnation so I don't exactly want to recommend using them even in this situation but if the choices are quirk it or leave it I'd say quirk it.

Just don't go so far as to Quark it

[Snowbluff]

Oh I wish they would Quark it. I loved that show.

[ScarecrowES]

*shrug* Same size and movement archetype now as the Raven has been since it was released. Going from tiny to light makes the most change in agility... that's definitely noticeable. Otherwise, you're looking at a mech of the same size and agility we've been playing with for several years.

[Gamuray]

It sometimes annoys me when people say "this mech fells like it's [insert wrong weight class here]". The reason it annoys me is because the weight classes are only there to categorize. There is theoretically only as much difference between a jenner and cicada as there is between cicada and a blackjack. If you're thinking medium like cicada, blackjack, then yes. It SHOULD feel close to those.. because it is. It is close to those very much.

[AWOL 01]

The difference between a Light and a Medium can be as little as 5 tons. The problem isn't that the Jenner plays too heavy now, the problem is we've gotten used to piloting it too light.

[Alistair Winter]

Short-term solution: Give agility quirks to all the 35-tonners, as PGI has already done for the 40- and 45-tonners. Acceleration quirks, etc.

Long-term solution: Change the algorithm for how agility (acceleration, torso twist, turn rate, etc) is determined. 35 tonners are way too sluggish compared to, say, 55 tonners or 75 tonners with big engines, when you consider the firepower and armour differential. They simply aren't agile enough to do well against skilled medium and heavy mech pilots, so people don't want to play them. A 75 ton Timber Wolf needs to be far more sluggish compared to a 35 ton Jenner, compared to the current situation. (And before you ask: No, not all light mechs are supposed to be scouts. Some are specifically designed to be damage dealers. Both in MWO and in lore.)

PS: Light mechs are currently at ~10% in the queue, heavy mechs are currently at ~40%. Business as usual.

[R5D4]

Gamuray, on 22 June 2016 - 04:44 PM, said:

It sometimes annoys me when people say "this mech fells like it's [insert wrong weight class here]". The reason it annoys me is because the weight classes are only there to categorize. There is theoretically only as much difference between a jenner and cicada as there is between cicada and a blackjack. If you're thinking medium like cicada, blackjack, then yes. It SHOULD feel close to those.. because it is. It is close to those very much.

Feel is subjective granted and as for tonnage yes 5 tons may not seem like a lot to some people but honestly I don't care about the lore/table top values of the chassis I care about the gameplay. I wouldn't want the Scout from Team Fortress 2 to feel the same as spy or the medic even if they were 'almost the same weight/height in lore'.

I know that TF2 gameplay mechanics offer far greater diversity between the classes than MWO that's why I'd say it's even more important not to make one class 'feel' like the other. It gives no incentive to play the different classes when they all feel the same but one can take 60+ alpha's and many tons more armor.

Edited by R5D4, 22 June 2016 - 05:00 PM.

[Solis Obscuri]

I think the Jenner suffers somewhat from having a shape that has relatively little total volume, but a large profile area from all sides. I don't think the resize is off by much in its case, but its geometry isn't as forgiving as some other chassis.

Then again, with a primary role of being a fast, agile hit-and-run striker, I think the Jenner is less affected by this than some of the other light and light-medium chassis would be, as some are only good for distractions, spotting, and hill-peeking. The Jenner can still slip in and trash back armor in ways few other mechs can.

[Coolant]

R5D4, on 22 June 2016 - 03:57 PM, said:

Having played a few rounds in Jenner IIC-A I can say that the re-scale has effectively changed the 'feel' of the Mech' from that of a Light to a Medium. This is not a good thing from my point of view.

Of course it's not a good thing for you because u pilot one. And unless you think outside the box and run something other than a bunch of SRM's you shouldve expected a nerf (not enough in my opinion) for running a meta mech. Can you pilot anything else?

[R5D4]

Coolant, on 22 June 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

Of course it's not a good thing for you because u pilot one. And unless you think outside the box and run something other than a bunch of SRM's you shouldve expected a nerf (not enough in my opinion) for running a meta mech. Can you pilot anything else?

FYI Jenner IIC-A is the LASER build not the SRM build.

I also run the Jenner F (Also the Laser Build)
Firestarter A/S/Ember
Orion
Orion IIC
Cataphract

Not exactly meta chasis any of them wouldn't you agree?

[MauttyKoray]

R5D4, on 22 June 2016 - 03:57 PM, said:

Having played a few rounds in Jenner IIC-A I can say that the re-scale has effectively changed the 'feel' of the Mech' from that of a Light to a Medium. This is not a good thing from my point of view.

Look, I get the whole Volumetric approach to the scaling and how it adds up in the maths (more or less) and it probably makes sense in that respect. In respect to the gameplay and achieving that different 'feel' between the classes I'd say it's had the unintentional side-effect of making the Jenner's (IS and Clan) far too similar to Low end Medium Mech's

Speed, Agility, Size are what make Lights feel distinct but now with two of those things missing it just feels like a really bad Medium and yes I already know that only the Oxide got de-quirked but let's be honest here - a bigger body takes longer to move, turn, twist so yeah it feels like an agility nerf when you use it.

I would say the Jenner's and Jenner IIC's need some quirks now to help compensate for this unintentional (?) nerf but I'll be honest I HATE the quirk system in it's current incarnation so I don't exactly want to recommend using them even in this situation but if the choices are quirk it or leave it I'd say quirk it.

Just don't go so far as to Quark it

Its a 35 ton mech, 5 tons down from the initial mediums, YES IT WILL feel like you're playing more of a medium though on the lower end of that.

Honestly this would never have been an issue had the 'quirkening' not gave so many stupid quirks to mechs that the game turned nearly into a twitch shooter.

Not to mention it highlights other issues, to take a quote from something I said before and also pointing out that lights were meant to be fast, lightly armed, and lesser armored, but not to the point where lights were either useless or had to have insane hardpoints and damage numbers to compare. The armor inflation is skewed poorly imo:

Quote

If you really want to get down to it, the durability issue of lighter mechs compared to heavier mechs is the inflated internals and armor values, not their size.

A Spider has 8 points CT armor front and 4 rear in with 20 points total at maximum if you go off BT values. Inflated to 16/8 respectively stock, this is further increased to a maximum of 40 point split between the two for MWO.

Now take an Atlas with 47/14 and a total max of 62 as BTech values, upped to 94/28 stock with a max of 124 points in MWO.

They both 'double' their armor yet the spider gains 20 points while the Atlas gains 62. In perspective an AC 2 would take 4 shots to pop stock armor on the CT of a spider and 24 on the Atlas. This is translated to 8 shots on the Spider but then a whopping 48 shots on the Atlas.

The inflation of these cause a MASSIVE rift in the durability between them and is the real reason we have the issue. The alternative would be to 'add armor' at a set rate on EVERY mech and not MULTIPLY it.

Or at the very least skew the gap between the weights closer (amount TBD based on play testing) to keep the durability gap from being so large and the need of lighter mechs to load insane amounts of weapons with inflated hardpoints.

[Baelfire]

Coolant, on 22 June 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

Of course it's not a good thing for you because u pilot one. And unless you think outside the box and run something other than a bunch of SRM's you shouldve expected a nerf (not enough in my opinion) for running a meta mech. Can you pilot anything else?

I am pretty sure that he runs "something other than a bunch of SRM's", mainly because the IIC-A does not have even a single srm tube.

Size was not the only thing that changed with the patch. Now Jenners and Novas share the same movement template, if i am not wrong. With increased size and decreased mobility it should be no surprise that they feel like mediums now.

Edited by Baelfire, 22 June 2016 - 05:43 PM.

[MauttyKoray]

R5D4, on 22 June 2016 - 04:54 PM, said:

Feel is subjective granted and as for tonnage yes 5 tons may not seem like a lot to some people but honestly I don't care about the lore/table top values of the chassis I care about the gameplay. I wouldn't want the Scout from Team Fortress 2 to feel the same as spy or the medic even if they were 'almost the same weight/height in lore'.

I know that TF2 gameplay mechanics offer far greater diversity between the classes than MWO that's why I'd say it's even more important not to make one class 'feel' like the other. It gives no incentive to play the different classes when they all feel the same but one can take 60+ alpha's and many tons more armor.

....the Jenner isn't supposed to be a scout, its a quick striker mech. It gets in, hits, gets out, while the cicada is meant to be a medium scout mech and the blackjack is a medium...well I don't actually know the classification for that one they never interested me.

[Darian DelFord]

Honestly outside of the dire hard Jenner folks like myself, I really see them slipping away from the forefront as time goes on. The Oxide may stay around and its clan variant, but only time will tell.

[LordKnightFandragon]

It basically is a low end medium, 35t? Yeah, 5 more tons and you have a baby medium.

[Trauglodyte]

R5D4, on 22 June 2016 - 03:57 PM, said:

Having played a few rounds in Jenner IIC-A I can say that the re-scale has effectively changed the 'feel' of the Mech' from that of a Light to a Medium. This is not a good thing from my point of view.

Look, I get the whole Volumetric approach to the scaling and how it adds up in the maths (more or less) and it probably makes sense in that respect. In respect to the gameplay and achieving that different 'feel' between the classes I'd say it's had the unintentional side-effect of making the Jenner's (IS and Clan) far too similar to Low end Medium Mech's

Speed, Agility, Size are what make Lights feel distinct but now with two of those things missing it just feels like a really bad Medium and yes I already know that only the Oxide got de-quirked but let's be honest here - a bigger body takes longer to move, turn, twist so yeah it feels like an agility nerf when you use it.

I would say the Jenner's and Jenner IIC's need some quirks now to help compensate for this unintentional (?) nerf but I'll be honest I HATE the quirk system in it's current incarnation so I don't exactly want to recommend using them even in this situation but if the choices are quirk it or leave it I'd say quirk it.

Just don't go so far as to Quark it

5 tons lighter than a Cicada; size is exactly where it should be.

[Jman5]

You have to see a mech for its tonnage instead of the chassis. Before this patch, a Locust and jenner were rather close to the same size, but they were 15 tons apart. To put that in perspective, it's the same distance between a Jenner and a Hunchback. Making the Jenner the size of a Locust is just as ridiculous as making it the size of a hunchback. Stop thinking in terms of lights, mediums, and heavies. Start thinking in terms of 20 tons, 35 tons, and 50 tons.

Original


New

Edited by Jman5, 22 June 2016 - 06:04 PM.

[Troutmonkey]

Jman5, on 22 June 2016 - 06:01 PM, said:

Stop thinking in terms of lights, mediums, and heavies. Start thinking in terms of 20 tons, 35 tons, and 50 tons.

Maybe start thinking in terms of lights were already the worst performing and least played weight class and don't need any nerfs whatsoever?

Edited by Troutmonkey, 22 June 2016 - 06:09 PM.

[R5D4]

Jman5, on 22 June 2016 - 06:01 PM, said:

Stop thinking in terms of lights, mediums, and heavies. Start thinking in terms of 20 tons, 35 tons, and 50 tons.

Why? Serious question.

From my perspective the gameplay is built around four classes light, medium, heavy, assault. Tonnage affects how much you can carry but should it make two Mech's in the same class feel like they don't belong to the same class? I'd say no but that's my opinion.

End of the day I'll either adapt, PGI will make adjustments, or I'll just stop playing as much (again). No big deal but I do wish they'd start considering the less quantifiable things before they implement changes like these. It can go a long way to improving reception.

[R5D4]

Trauglodyte, on 22 June 2016 - 06:01 PM, said:

5 tons lighter than a Cicada; size is exactly where it should be.

Didn't say anything about changing the size.
Did suggest tweaking the quirks