20 replies to this topic

[MrVei]

after spending a fair amount of time on both clan and IS ac5s, I really like the multi shot on the clan ac over the single shot IS ac. the multi shot feels more auto cannon like. I would love to see the IS ac line get the multi shot that clan has now, who else feels this way?

[Juodas Varnas]

Are you Gyrok in disguise trying to get IS autocannons nerfed?

[627]

MrVei, on 20 June 2016 - 11:53 PM, said:

after spending a fair amount of time on both clan and IS ac5s, I really like the multi shot on the clan ac over the single shot IS ac. the multi shot feels more auto cannon like. I would love to see the IS ac line get the multi shot that clan has now, who else feels this way?

While they sound cooler and all, the Clan ACs can't focus the damage like the IS ones do. Your 2-4 shots from the Clan ACs hit all over the mech in the worst case, changing the damage effect into paint scratching. IS on the other side is hit and miss, but if you hit all damage goes to one location.

So multi or single shot is a balance decision in the end and as the clan ones are lighter, they need this drawback to balance them out.

By the way, this mechanic was suggested by the community even before the clans dropped as it was the way they worked in the books.


However if you want dakka dakka ratatatata on IS side, you need a king crab or mauler and get 6 AC2s on 'em

Edited by 627, 21 June 2016 - 12:03 AM.

[Moldur]

It is a balance reason. The Clan autocannons fire in multiple shots, but it actually does the same amount of damage as the single shot of an Innersphere autocannon. The Clan AC and UAC-5 shoot 2 shots, but each shot is 2.5 damage. The IS shoots one 5 damage projectile.

Clan ACs certainly feels cool, but the disadvantage is that you have a stream of weaker projectiles that allows for missing and hitting different parts of a mech for each round.

IS ACs will do all of that damage in a single round. I suppose one could argue that with a clan AC, one could correct and at least do partial damage if their first round misses, but most agree that it is a detriment, not a benefit. The only benefit that people posit as far as "split projectiles" of the Clan autocannons is that when boating them, it results in significant screen shake and obscures the target's vision because there is screen shake per each projectile.


Clan UACs being lighter and being able to double tap is supposedly balanced by the fact that their projectiles are split, while the IS autocannons, which are by all other accounts (weight, range, lack of double tap) worse than the Clan equivalents, get single projectiles.

Edited by Moldur, 21 June 2016 - 12:02 AM.

[EvilCow]

No.

Edited by EvilCow, 21 June 2016 - 12:48 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

There isn't much difference between those guns

the average damage potential for the UAC10 is 54-57% while the single IS Bullet got 55-58%
The UAC10 hits more often but the AC10 deals more damage on hit - so it would hardly change much when the IS AC10 starts to fire multiple pellets. (No big nerf including - you have just to re-learn to fire your IS AC10

[Malachy Karrde]

627, on 21 June 2016 - 12:02 AM, said:

While they sound cooler and all, the Clan ACs can't focus the damage like the IS ones do. Your 2-4 shots from the Clan ACs hit all over the mech in the worst case, changing the damage effect into paint scratching. IS on the other side is hit and miss, but if you hit all damage goes to one location.

So multi or single shot is a balance decision in the end and as the clan ones are lighter, they need this drawback to balance them out.

By the way, this mechanic was suggested by the community even before the clans dropped as it was the way they worked in the books.


However if you want dakka dakka ratatatata on IS side, you need a king crab or mauler and get 6 AC2s on 'em

In reality the projectiles are spaced so closely that they hit the same spot. I've never seen any so called spread in a single shot of a normal clan AC.

[Karl Streiger]

Malachy Karrde, on 21 June 2016 - 03:02 AM, said:

In reality the projectiles are spaced so closely that they hit the same spot. I've never seen any so called spread in a single shot of a normal clan AC.

its three shots with a delay of 0.11 between so 0.22 between the first and the last bullet - not much you hardly can correct or walk the fire. (don't know what the HSR calculates those bullets)

it was 0.14 and 4 bullets in the beginning - and whooping 0.15 and 5 bullets for the C-AC20 (also reduced to 0.11 delay and 4 bullets)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 21 June 2016 - 03:08 AM.

[Lily from animove]

while I admit that UAC's should be this way, Ac's should not.

gameplay wise it is of course totally poop to have streamign (U)Ac's because PP is all this game is about.

Karl Streiger, on 21 June 2016 - 03:07 AM, said:

its three shots with a delay of 0.11 between so 0.22 between the first and the last bullet - not much you hardly can correct or walk the fire. (don't know what the HSR calculates those bullets)

it was 0.14 and 4 bullets in the beginning - and whooping 0.15 and 5 bullets for the C-AC20 (also reduced to 0.11 delay and 4 bullets)

thats the point where geometry will again decide efficency, shooting at a mech like an Stormcrow or Blacknight being in movement it will make hitting a singlesection extremely unlikely. While hitting a mech like a hunchback or anthing with large single wide sections will still work fine.

And another advatage of the IS AC's is thta you fire once and can instantly do something else, may that be twisting or shooting lasers. while a steam AC negates this to soem degree, you can't fire lasers together wiht them if the target requires lead.

I still would love to see crosstech and discover how much the clan or Is Ac's are used after like 3 weeks.

[LordNothing]

im one of the few who think that the bursts are too short. i like the way something like a gau-8 works. you pull the trigger you get something like 65 rounds fired over a one second burst (the gun does 1 or 2 second bursts at 3900 rpm). obviously this might be more representative of a rac or something (or a machine gun, ton for ton). something like a single barrel chaingun might be more appropriate, like an m230 which can still pop off 10 rounds in a 1 second burst.

of course the tick rate kind of limits effective firing rates, but i really think the bursts could still be upwards of 6-8 rounds without breaking things too much.

[Karl Streiger]

Or you simple reduce the number of pellets towards 1 projectile per LBX, ACs even LRMs or SRMs. simple because spread and derivation could be calculated. You don't have to calculate every pellet of an LBX when you know that in 90% at given range of all cases just 3 projectiles may hit. Its random even now - so those hits could be calculated without need to show and track each projectile on the server.

Sound and look could be calculated on the client side. So it may look like a 100 shot burst but in the end there are only 3 (first,middle, last) to interpolate the direction

Edited by Karl Streiger, 21 June 2016 - 03:52 AM.

[Willard Phule]

LordNothing, on 21 June 2016 - 03:24 AM, said:

im one of the few who think that the bursts are too short. i like the way something like a gau-8 works. you pull the trigger you get something like 65 rounds fired over a one second burst (the gun does 1 or 2 second bursts at 3900 rpm). obviously this might be more representative of a rac or something (or a machine gun, ton for ton). something like a single barrel chaingun might be more appropriate, like an m230 which can still pop off 10 rounds in a 1 second burst.

of course the tick rate kind of limits effective firing rates, but i really think the bursts could still be upwards of 6-8 rounds without breaking things too much.

Wait until the Rotary Auto Cannons get introduced, if they ever do. the RAC5 is a beast.

[Karl Streiger]

Willard Phule, on 21 June 2016 - 03:51 AM, said:

Wait until the Rotary Auto Cannons get introduced, if they ever do. the RAC5 is a beast.

wait jam chance is 15% for a 3% (2) tt chance for the UAC5
So its 348% for a 58% (6) chance in TT - so they will make the jam chance time depended - like it would have been the better solution for the UAC 5 from day one.

[LordNothing]

i kind of think the racs should get different mechanics, lest i be bored with them. its going to need to be a press and hold weapon, no double taps. its also should not have a fixed burst length, finger comes up the gun stops. no spinup bs either, i hate games that do that (real gatlings fire during spinup). jam mechanic might still be in play, after 10 or so rounds start ramping up the jam chance on an exponential curve. perhaps throw in scatter effects and heat ramping too when you push it beyond the safe zone. it should be a dps god.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 June 2016 - 04:21 AM.

[Murphy7]

I agree regarding a separate mechanic for RACs if/when they are ever introduced. As they fire have them warm up a la the MASC scale, with increasing chances for jamming and structure damage in the RAC location. Otherwise these thing would be rather silly.

DRG-1N, a while back, I liked to think of it as a RAC/5

[Karl Streiger]

well considering ACs in MWO:
This is a a AC:
https://youtu.be/KuKiATlkXZw?t=111

[LordNothing]

Karl Streiger, on 21 June 2016 - 05:02 AM, said:

well considering ACs in MWO:
This is a a AC:
https://youtu.be/KuKiATlkXZw?t=111

i dont like how mwo totally lacks weapons like this.

MWLL had a lot of diversity in the way ballistic weapons worked. 2s and 5s worked different than 10s and 20s. is and clan had different mechanics. its a good way to add depth. kind of how i wish the game would have weapon varients.

Edited by LordNothing, 21 June 2016 - 02:28 PM.

[MrVei]

well maybe I just need a RAC5 then lol, that looks awesome

[Juodas Varnas]

MrVei, on 22 June 2016 - 05:59 AM, said:

well maybe I just need a RAC5 then lol, that looks awesome

Well, as long as the RAC5s came with Argus attached, i'd be all up for it.

Argus is like... The sexiest non-3025 bipedal mech.

[CK16]

IS AC's can stay single shot.....IS UAC's though should be switched to how Clan has them, maybe with tighter groupings but slightly longer cycle times? Cause if IS ever does get larger bore UAC'd no way in hell will single shot UAC 10's and 20's be balanced, unless huge *** jam chance and heat gen/power draw