13 replies to this topic

[TooDumbToQuit]

I really like the VND-II(C). One odd thing about it is how it fires, If it is set to fire both PPCs at once, it instead fires one after another very slowly.

But if set to chain fire, it fires them VERY FAST. It also has the following quirks.

Energy Heat Generation -10%
PPC Velocity +50%
PPC Heat Generation -15%.

So I took it to a hot map and tried to over heat it, I mean it only has two heat sinks. It took 17 shots as fast as possible for it to overheat.

(Same with the Awesome with 3 LPL but firing all 3 at one time)

I've been trying to test something but it is hard to do. But it seems like IS Mechs on chain fire, fire faster then Clan Mechs.

[Koniving]

I'm gonna look into this.

Edit: Ok.

I got what you meant now. For some reason I thought you meant it is firing "Pew-pew." Recharge. "Pew-pew."
Rather than click POW, recharge on regular and click, pew, click pew, recharge on chainfire.

So I waited until I could sit and see if the Power Draw had been implemented yet and when I couldn't encounter what I thought you were describing I re-read it and was like "...Derp."

Alright. First, yes it has a more frequent amount of 'chances' to hit someone by splitting them.
But what really is going on is the difference between single barrel and double barrel shotgun.

He fires them one at a time. Around 10 minutes, he takes about firing them at the same time as a "gimmick," which if real world physics applied in MWO, firing two PPCs at once would be pretty much a gimmick since they would fly side by side rather than merge into a single spot and hit at the same time.

....But since they do, firing two at once will nail 20 damage (IS PPC) into the same spot, where chain firing them will nail just 10 damage. 20 damage in one spot... or the risk of 10 damage in one and 10 in the other.

Of course it boils down to more than this.
Take for example if you fire both at once and miss... that's a total loss. Chain fired you can possibly miss, correct and hit.

All at once, you have a 4 second wait to fire again.
Chain fired, you have a second chance to hit when you want, but still have 4 seconds per PPC fired before each individual one recharges, thus "firing more often" but ultimately this cuts your actual damage rate
Neat thing is, the overall heat spike goes down because you're taking it in smaller chunks with chain fire, while all at once does a lot of heat.

As an example...

Chain fired like this, each individual shot only does 2 damage but the rate is insane and it scares enemies.
But it isn't truly effective unless fired all at once (one spot, 8 damage). But wait... if I miss, that's 8 damage wasted. If I just miss with chain fire, I only lose 2 damage per shot that misses

-------

This said...
"Only has two heatsinks" is likely erroneous. Every mech requires a minimum of 10, but if you engine is rated 250 (or over), the engine has 10 heatsinks built into it. 225 would have 9, 200 would have 8, etc. 275 would give you an extra slot to put one in (but doesn't give it to you for free). So you actually have 12 heatsinks if you only see 2.

Edited by Koniving, 25 June 2016 - 03:40 PM.

[TooDumbToQuit]

Koniving, on 22 June 2016 - 06:00 PM, said:

I'm gonna look into this.

Thanks! And I'm learning something that has been said here many many times, use and try the Trial Mechs!

And also, Long Tom is back tonight, it just killed 9 enemy Mechs and make it an easy win because of when it happened.

[Jables McBarty]

LikeUntoGod, on 22 June 2016 - 03:50 PM, said:

I really like the VND-II(C). One odd thing about it is how it fires, If it is set to fire both PPCs at once, it instead fires one after another very slowly.

But if set to chain fire, it fires them VERY FAST. It also has the following quirks.

Energy Heat Generation -10%
PPC Velocity +50%
PPC Heat Generation -15%.

So I took it to a hot map and tried to over heat it, I mean it only has two heat sinks. It took 17 shots as fast as possible for it to overheat.

(Same with the Awesome with 3 LPL but firing all 3 at one time)

I've been trying to test something but it is hard to do. But it seems like IS Mechs on chain fire, fire faster then Clan Mechs.

Curious to see what Koniving finds out on this. Are you saying it feels like a bug?

I've been having a blastie in the VND trial. I'm a big PPC fan, and the MLX and SDR-5D introduced me to latter-day poptarting, so the trial VND was made for me. I convinced my friend to do dual VNDs with me. Sooo much fun.

I put the PPCs in their own groups and have the ML on a third group.

As for clanners, they tend to have higher heat per shot, so I wouldn't be surprised if they overheat faster. I believe their Double Heat Sinks are also less effective, though I've never put in the effort to fully understand that.

Keep in mind that the VND has 2 external heatsinks and 10 internal heatsinks for a total of 12.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b#i=398&l=stock

Click on the WeaponLab button. The Approx Time to Overheat is 15 seconds by default. Not sure if this is an overall average, or just for "average temp" maps like River City.

[TooDumbToQuit]

Jables McBarty, on 23 June 2016 - 03:03 PM, said:

Curious to see what Koniving finds out on this. Are you saying it feels like a bug? I've been having a blastie in the VND trial. I'm a big PPC fan, and the MLX and SDR-5D introduced me to latter-day poptarting, so the trial VND was made for me. I convinced my friend to do dual VNDs with me. Sooo much fun. I put the PPCs in their own groups and have the ML on a third group. As for clanners, they tend to have higher heat per shot, so I wouldn't be surprised if they overheat faster. I believe their Double Heat Sinks are also less effective, though I've never put in the effort to fully understand that. Keep in mind that the VND has 2 external heatsinks and 10 internal heatsinks for a total of 12. http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b#i=398&l=stock Click on the WeaponLab button. The Approx Time to Overheat is 15 seconds by default. Not sure if this is an overall average, or just for "average temp" maps like River City.

Well, it takes 25 seconds on double fire (7 shots) and 25 seconds of Chain Fire (14 shots) on a map where it starts with a heat of 5%.

I started doing some testing and doing what you did with moving the PPCs to two buttons. And I found out that I was 100% wrong.

It is firing both at once like it should be.

I think what was throwing me was my belief in never ever putting my two main weapons in the same arm. I can see the pluses of firing both from around a corner but I admit, when I get one, I'm putting one in each arm and changing the buttons.

I'm playing the Trial IS Mechs I plan on buying since i found out that when I do buy it, the xp stays with it.

Edited by LikeUntoGod, 23 June 2016 - 03:41 PM.

[Jables McBarty]

LikeUntoGod, on 23 June 2016 - 03:20 PM, said:

Do you have any idea what the time is between Clan chain fire and IS chain fire?

And yes, this must be a bug. It comes set with the two PPCs on button one. But if you press 1 etc, they fire one at a time slowly.

In fact, as I was writing this, I took it to a hot map to test it. It starts out with heat at 5%. If you hold down left mouse (1) when it is in normal mode where it is supposed to fire both PPCs at one time it takes 25 seconds for it to overheat firing 7 single shots at about 4 seconds apart.

In Chain Fire mode, it also overheats in 25 seconds but it take 14 shots in the same amount of time.


So.....if that is not a bug...i have no idea what it is.

But if you change it to chain fire, it fires the two PPC VERY quickly after another.

What map are you on? I'm at work but I'm leaving now and can test it out.

Couple things that occur to me in the moment:

Quote

And yes, this must be a bug. It comes set with the two PPCs on button one. But if you press 1 etc, they fire one at a time slowly. But if you change it to chain fire, it fires the two PPCs VERY quickly after another.

Are you starting out with sync fire or chain fire? If you start with chain fire, then switch to sync fire before both have come off cooldown, they'll continue to fire at the same intervals.

Quote

In fact, as I was writing this, I took it to a hot map to test it. It starts out with heat at 5%. If you hold down left mouse (1) when it is in normal mode where it is supposed to fire both PPCs at one time it takes 25 seconds for it to overheat firing 7 single shots at about 4 seconds apart.

You mean seven single PPC shots, not 7x2 synced shots to get 14 total?

LikeUntoGod, on 23 June 2016 - 03:20 PM, said:

Do you have any idea what the time difference is between Clan chain fire and IS chain fire?

The difference in chain fire time isn't dependent on tech base, but appears to be based on weapon itself. It's most salient with lasers: Hold down the chain fire button for lasers and it will only move from A to B after A has finished firing. But you can speed that up by spamming the fire button, after which they will fire a couple milliseconds apart. It's approximately the same for PPCs, however the native "duration" of a PPC shot is much shorter, so there's less difference between holding down the fire button and spamming it.

As for the precise time increments, I don't know these off the top of my head. However I do know that they are far enough apart such that spamming chain-fire for 3 ERPPCs does not entail a Ghost Heat penalty (which I think is 3 shots within .5 seconds; if so, the chain-fire increment would be .26 seconds or greater). At least I think so.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

Friends dont let friends pilot vindicators.

[Jables McBarty]

Boogie138, on 23 June 2016 - 03:34 PM, said:

Friends dont let friends pilot vindicators.

Says the Capellan.

I was once matched against a 10- or 12-man from TCAF that included no fewer than 6 Vindis.

[Jables McBarty]

LikeUntoGod, on 23 June 2016 - 03:20 PM, said:

Well, it takes 25 seconds on double fire (7 shots) and 25 seconds of Chain Fire (14 shots) on a map where it starts with a heat of 5%.

I started doing some testing and doing what you did with moving the PPCs to two buttons. And I found out that I was 100% wrong.

It is firing both at once like it should be.

I think what was throwing me was my belief in never ever putting my two main weapons in the same arm. I can see the pluses of firing both from around a corner but I admit, when I get one, I'm putting one in each arm and changing the buttons.

I'm playing the Trial IS Mechs I plan on buying since i found out that when I do buy it, the xp stays with it.

LOL, I wish I'd seen your edited post before I went and did the test run

Glad to hear you figured it out. Just since I took records, I'll put my stats at the bottom--I did find that there's no noticeable difference between holding down a chainfired group of PPCs and spamming it. So that at least was interesting. Perhaps it is different for Clan PPCs--I accidentally developed a slight preference for clanners (which I attribute to all of my favorite MW3 mechs being clan), so I've used their PPCs far more than the IS ones.

I like the 2 button approach because I can choose between single and double fire without having to press the Chain-Fire button. I do something similar when I have 3 PPCs-put all 3 in 2 separate groups on chainfire, so I can three volleys of 1 or a volley of 2 followed by a volley of 1.

I definitely understand putting one in each--I tend to do that just so I can poke around both corners. However I will say that the advantage of the Right-only is you can use your left arm as a shield side. I adapted to this playstyle because the SDR-5D and MLX (ERPPC+ECM) both force you to use your right arm.





Caustic (base heat 5%)

Sync-fired in Group 1 (hold down Mouse 1)
-PPCs only: 7 shots of 2; 24 seconds to overheat (no damage from heat)
-PPCs + ML: 5 shots of 3; 16 seconds to overheat (take 1% damage from heat)

Chain-fired in Group 1 (hold down Mouse 1)
-PPCs only: 14 shots of 1; 24 seconds to overheat (no damage from heat)
-PPCs + ML: 14 total (10 PPC 4 ML); 24 seconds (no damage from heat)

Chain-fired in Group 1 (spam Mouse 1) (no difference--apparently I was wrong about cooldown)
-PPCs only: 14 shots of 1; 24 seconds to overheat (no damage from heat)
-PPCs + ML: 14 total (10 PPC 4 ML); 24 seconds (no damage from heat)

Edited by Jables McBarty, 23 June 2016 - 04:38 PM.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

Jables McBarty, on 23 June 2016 - 04:18 PM, said:

Says the Capellan.

I was once matched against a 10- or 12-man from TCAF that included no fewer than 6 Vindis.

And via that train of thought, who would know better?

Just a couple days ago 4tcr dropped with 10 of em. The two remaining pugs (that wisely were not in vindis) were not very happy with us. Rightfully so.

You can give me all the personal anecdotes you want about the vindi in the world. Not only is it not a good mech, but it is probably one of the worst in the game.

Can a good pilot make it work? A good pilot will make anything work. But all things being equal the vindi is so horribly sub par.

Low weapon mounts - low engine cap - mostly starved for hardpoints - typically quirked for subpar weapon systems (ppc) so what is good about this?

If jump jets got un nerfed and PPCs were given (back) a major velocity boost then maybe you could return to pop-tarting with one.

Edited by Boogie138, 23 June 2016 - 07:48 PM.

[TooDumbToQuit]

Jables McBarty, on 23 June 2016 - 04:38 PM, said:

LOL, I wish I'd seen your edited post before I went and did the test run Glad to hear you figured it out. Just since I took records, I'll put my stats at the bottom--I did find that there's no noticeable difference between holding down a chainfired group of PPCs and spamming it. So that at least was interesting. Perhaps it is different for Clan PPCs--I accidentally developed a slight preference for clanners (which I attribute to all of my favorite MW3 mechs being clan), so I've used their PPCs far more than the IS ones. I like the 2 button approach because I can choose between single and double fire without having to press the Chain-Fire button. I do something similar when I have 3 PPCs-put all 3 in 2 separate groups on chainfire, so I can three volleys of 1 or a volley of 2 followed by a volley of 1. I definitely understand putting one in each--I tend to do that just so I can poke around both corners. However I will say that the advantage of the Right-only is you can use your left arm as a shield side. I adapted to this playstyle because the SDR-5D and MLX (ERPPC+ECM) both force you to use your right arm. Caustic (base heat 5%) Sync-fired in Group 1 (hold down Mouse 1) -PPCs only: 7 shots of 2; 24 seconds to overheat (no damage from heat) -PPCs + ML: 5 shots of 3; 16 seconds to overheat (take 1% damage from heat) Chain-fired in Group 1 (hold down Mouse 1) -PPCs only: 14 shots of 1; 24 seconds to overheat (no damage from heat) -PPCs + ML: 14 total (10 PPC 4 ML); 24 seconds (no damage from heat) Chain-fired in Group 1 (spam Mouse 1) (no difference--apparently I was wrong about cooldown) -PPCs only: 14 shots of 1; 24 seconds to overheat (no damage from heat) -PPCs + ML: 14 total (10 PPC 4 ML); 24 seconds (no damage from heat)

I'm so sorry, lol. I have found that the is a huge difference between trying to figure these things out when other Mechs are shooting at you and when you are alone shooting a target, lol.

I did not know till now that you could even take Trial Mechs to the maps etc.

Boogie138, on 23 June 2016 - 07:47 PM, said:

And via that train of thought, who would know better? Just a couple days ago 4tcr dropped with 10 of em. The two remaining pugs (that wisely were not in vindis) were not very happy with us. Rightfully so. You can give me all the personal anecdotes you want about the vindi in the world. Not only is it not a good mech, but it is probably one of the worst in the game. Can a good pilot make it work? A good pilot will make anything work. But all things being equal the vindi is so horribly sub par. Low weapon mounts - low engine cap - mostly starved for hardpoints - typically quirked for subpar weapon systems (ppc) so what is good about this? If jump jets got un nerfed and PPCs were given (back) a major velocity boost then maybe you could return to pop-tarting with one.

So you vote no on this one?

[The Basilisk]

I) There is nothing wrong with the heatbuildup.
Also could not replicate the odd behavior chain/groupfire.

-- Groupfire: both PPCs in one group firing at once, same cooldown.
-- Chainfire: PPCs in one group firing with 0,25 secs delay in a row.

II) Clan heatsystem/heatsinks work with lower heatcap and higher dissipation since the last revision of the heatsystem some months ago. Nothing odd here.

III) Vindi like Victor, Highlander, Zeus, Dragon and some other maingun Mechs will possibly be more viable when and if the heatsystem gets revised again, to get rid of the ultra high dmg alphas.

[Jables McBarty]

LikeUntoGod, on 23 June 2016 - 07:51 PM, said:

So you vote no on this one?

This was directed at boogie, but I'll give you my answer:

Buy it if you like it, and if you want a challenge.

But take this advice with the following: I prefer challenging 'mechs. My first chassis was the Jenner, sure, but my next two were HGN-IIC and the Locust. I'm also quite fond of my Spiders and my Mist Lynx. I prefer my Vulture to my Madcat.

If your main goal is high scores, pass on the vindi. If your goal is to have fun with underperforming 'mechs that suit your playstyle, and you really like the vindi, pick it up

[Koniving]

Gave the great edit above.