23 replies to this topic

[Lehmund]

This is all about the Maps really since, as an experienced gaming industry specialist, I know just how much work there is in making something like the current Wave 3 FW. It's got potential and the gameplay is great with the Mechs. It just needs some reasonable rework to become awesome.

I've posted some ideas in here and many others have too. I always strive to recommend changes that won't be too much work but would improve on the gameplay without changing anything core.

Here is another idea that I think is superior after I saw this:
http://mwomercs.com/...playable-areas/

There is a general complaint that the FW maps tend to channel players into choke points so the gameplay seems to be a little monodirectional and repetitive. The maps are also somewhat small so extreme long range gameplay and differing methods of approach to the enemy are few and far in between.

There is also the issue of "gen-rushing" which is I believe a bit contrary to the spirit of the game mode, something we should strive to eliminate.

A good solution would be to make the maps bigger to fight in, yet leave the choke poitns near Omega as a defensible location at the same time.

How to do it:

• Separate all sector attacks in 2 Segments: Capture the Gates & Destroy Omega.
  
• On the Capture the Gate, have people drop on one of these QP maps (HPG Manifold, Grim Plexus, Caustic, Canyon networks, Alpine Peaks) in Assault mode.
  
• The Gates are on an edge of the map and are a point to Assault, with turrets, ECM tower, Radar etc... And the dropship area is another area with defenses and objectives.
  
• Attackers drop in their defended area while Defenders drop in Front of their gate, in their defended area.
  
• Match goes on like the new upcoming Assault mode and the Attackers succeed when they are able to destroy the Gate generator and defenses. The first Segment then ends with the Mechs still alive on whatever wave (48 mechs on each side are involved in waves as before). All surviving mechs are field "repaired" in preparation for the next Segment (Destroy Omega).
  
• If the Defenders are able to get rid of the Landing Beacons on the other side however, the Defenders have been repulsed and the match ends if that happens.
  
• This is another match load on another map which would be similar to the current FW maps that correspond to the Capture the Gates maps (HPG ==> Vitric, Grim Plexus ==> Grim Portico, Caustic ==> Sulfurous Rift, Canyon ==> Hellebore, Alpine ==> Boreal). The gates are moved to be near the drop ship zone of the Attackers and the whole map is widened allowing for different angles of approach to the choke point pocket where lies Omega. i.e. no need to open the gates again and you have more options to approach Omega.
  
• Within there are capture points similar to the Capture mode that need to be "turned" and then locked by the Attackers instead of O-Gens with a tiny hole to shoot in. Omega opens up for destruction possibilities when all 3-5 capture points are brought down. This forces the attackers to have to stand in some zones, vulnerable for a little while to get it done. Alternatively, if Omega is slapped long enough and hard enough from afar, perhaps that too can eventually destroy the thing (to give it another attack option that would be way difficult to achieve and possibly force the Defenders to come out and play etc...
  
• In the second Segment, pilots have available the surviving mechs from before only, if I forgot that part.

I think the hardest thing to work on here would be to cut the game 48 mech mode into 2 Segments in the engine to facilitate this. Since PGI has 2 new map designers, they can certainly do the map redesigns necessary reusing what is already available as assets.

I believe something like this would open up many different strategies, force lots of very interesting choices in what mechs to drop and when for the 2 different Segments, mechs would move around alot and teams would have the space to try different antics and strategies to win.

Final note on design Re: Recapturing territories: In this idea, recap territories on a sector would mean Attackers would still need to go through the Defending team to get into the Omega core Segment but perhaps temporary defenses would be there instead of the full thing. So similar to what is going on now, the objective would feel alot more like 2 Skirmish Segments back to back, which would be fine by me, to see who wins... i.e. the side that loses all 48 of their mechs first loses, more or less.... Similar to the main stream of thought, if the Defenders are able to get rid of the Attacker's Landing Beacons, that particular attack is foiled.

Just some ideas....

Edited by Lehmund, 20 June 2016 - 08:33 PM.

[S T I N G S]

You could make like I wish Domination would have been with respawns until the objective is reached. You could make it the 4 respawn limit and you could make it work.

[BIoB]

I'm pretty sure I remember them saying before that they're only going to make small changes from here on out so what we have is what we got.

Its a cool game mode IMO and im going to keep playing, But.....

[Willard Phule]

Wait...hold on...

You're expecting the guys that can't retain enough population due to terrible balancing, hit registration and matchmaking to be able to pull that off?

Seriously?

[Danjo San]

The main issue is population, right? People are not joining FP because, the Queue reads 0/0 and it takes forever to find a match. However a scouting match can be found quite easy right?
So how about this for a solution... (Idea came from another thread, where Koniving and I were discussing and tossing back and forth Ideas):
- Make Invasion Matches launch as soon as 4vs4 is met, reinforcing both sides as soon as the next set of 4vs4 is met.
The 30 minute Timer starts with the first 4vs4. You still bring a 250 ton Dropdeck.
- Scouting Bonus can add a "Reinforcements Drop Early" Advantage. +30Seconds
- Invaders can cap and activate Invader Landing Beacons closer to gates to ease reinforcement. and have the reinforcements drop on the correct attack lane. Sulfurus Rift will have 3 different ones (only one can be active at once), and the incoming reinforcements will only drop there once. After they lose their first mech, the second one drops in the original spawn.
Other Maps, like Vitric Forge will only need one Beacon as the gates are closer together.
-Win conditions stay the same with one exception. As soon as the defenders have destroyed all Invading forces (16 Mechs if there is a 4vs4, 32 at 8vs8, 48 at 12vs12) and there is no immediate Queue for Reinforcements active. Invaders win by destroying the objectives. On Counter Attack/Hold Territory it is the same deal... Once all active Forces are destroyed or the timer runs out and omega is destroyed the respective side wins.
-Groupsize: if you have a full 12 man group and you get in a queue, and a full 12 man shows up, all 24 players drop at the same time. If a 12man is in Queue and the Queue fills up with a 4 man group first, Alpha Lance of the 12man group will drop into Battle first, while the other 8 are "waiting on the bench" until the next set is ready to drop. Same is true for a 6 man group, 4 will drop 2 will wait in reserve until the next lance is complete.

I believe this proposal will revive Faction Play, as you are no longer reliant on begging the Faction Chat for Players to join, spamming your friendslist or take other weird measures trying to kickstart some battle in FP. That way even Low Population houses can get battles quickly.
Faction Play often has a Lemming effect. Once Players start to pour in others follow.

[Willard Phule]

Danjo San, on 21 June 2016 - 03:29 AM, said:

The main issue is population, right? People are not joining FP because, the Queue reads 0/0 and it takes forever to find a match. However a scouting match can be found quite easy right?
So how about this for a solution... (Idea came from another thread, where Koniving and I were discussing and tossing back and forth Ideas):
- Make Invasion Matches launch as soon as 4vs4 is met, reinforcing both sides as soon as the next set of 4vs4 is met.
The 30 minute Timer starts with the first 4vs4. You still bring a 250 ton Dropdeck.
- Scouting Bonus can add a "Reinforcements Drop Early" Advantage. +30Seconds
- Invaders can cap and activate Invader Landing Beacons closer to gates to ease reinforcement. and have the reinforcements drop on the correct attack lane. Sulfurus Rift will have 3 different ones (only one can be active at once), and the incoming reinforcements will only drop there once. After they lose their first mech, the second one drops in the original spawn.
Other Maps, like Vitric Forge will only need one Beacon as the gates are closer together.
-Win conditions stay the same with one exception. As soon as the defenders have destroyed all Invading forces (16 Mechs if there is a 4vs4, 32 at 8vs8, 48 at 12vs12) and there is no immediate Queue for Reinforcements active. Invaders win by destroying the objectives. On Counter Attack/Hold Territory it is the same deal... Once all active Forces are destroyed or the timer runs out and omega is destroyed the respective side wins.
-Groupsize: if you have a full 12 man group and you get in a queue, and a full 12 man shows up, all 24 players drop at the same time. If a 12man is in Queue and the Queue fills up with a 4 man group first, Alpha Lance of the 12man group will drop into Battle first, while the other 8 are "waiting on the bench" until the next set is ready to drop. Same is true for a 6 man group, 4 will drop 2 will wait in reserve until the next lance is complete.

I believe this proposal will revive Faction Play, as you are no longer reliant on begging the Faction Chat for Players to join, spamming your friendslist or take other weird measures trying to kickstart some battle in FP. That way even Low Population houses can get battles quickly.
Faction Play often has a Lemming effect. Once Players start to pour in others follow.

And with the "no matchmaker" concept, depending on your faction, it's a neverending baby seal hunt.

Again, population doesn't support separation by any type of skill or experience. So...Units will go where the meta is, new players are moving targets and we're right back to where we are now.

[Danjo San]

Willard Phule, on 21 June 2016 - 03:33 AM, said:

And with the "no matchmaker" concept, depending on your faction, it's a neverending baby seal hunt.

Again, population doesn't support separation by any type of skill or experience. So...Units will go where the meta is, new players are moving targets and we're right back to where we are now.

So you are saying new players suck and should never be allowed in the deep end of the pool. How will they learn to swim then?
Back where we are now? We are in a state where long wait times are holding back good players, not beginners. Reduce wait times, good players return good matches result. No good players, no good matches.
Separating will only add more waiting time, as it did when the dumbest of all ideas was introduced: "The Split Queue" Fortunately they realized quick enough that it was a horrible idea to begin with because of the low poulation.
Low Population is the keyword here. there are not that many players in this game. no matter how hard you cry for it. splitting and matchmaking, will increase wait times. How long are you willing to wait for a match? 20min? 30min?
I know most of my unit think the wait times atm are too long.
Btw. we get good matches, fighting 31HR is always fun. Maybe you should join Liao. Not only Babyseals down here... When we want to go seal clubbing we defend against Clan Wolf, if they show that is. most of the time we have to club the puppies is scouting though

[Bud Crue]

At this point I don't see CW being revived. Period. It would take far more effort than PGI has ever expended on anything and I have no reason to believe that they 1) see that there is problem to begin with or 2) that even if they acknowledged that a problem exists that they are willing or capable of doing anything about it.

As to 1). We have Russ public comment from the May townhall the P3 is it; and all that will follow is incremental fixes and changes from here on out. We have had no real comment regarding CW since P3 dropped. As far as the player base goes, based on the forums and comments coming from MS and other large units, many of their once most dedicated players have given up on the mode and for some the game.

As to 2) The forums, in game chat, reddit and even Russ's twitter feed all have contained enui to outright negativity regarding P3 from players, yet there has been ZERO commentary from PGI to address it. Nothing. Just silence. No comments or responses of: "yeah we are on it" or "that might need to be addressed soon" not even a politely phrased "yes, we understand your concern but P3 has lots of new features and it needs time to develop with the players". Not even that sort of noncommittal BS that we have all come to expect. Instead, just silence. So if they are even aware that there is a problem, they are doing a heck of a job hiding that awareness.

I think all of you with great ideas (or even bad ideas) for CW are looking for hope where there is none to be found. Prove me wrong, please. My only inkling of hope is that today's patch is one of those that feels like two steps forward instead of one step back. If it is maybe hoping for better CW is not that futile after all. Prove me right PGI, please.

Edited by Bud Crue, 21 June 2016 - 04:23 AM.

[invernomuto]

Bud Crue, on 21 June 2016 - 04:22 AM, said:

As to 2) The forums, in game chat, reddit and even Russ's twitter feed all have contained enui to outright negativity regarding P3 from players, yet there has been ZERO commentary from PGI to address it. Nothing. Just silence. No comments or responses of: "yeah we are on it" or "that might need to be addressed soon" not even a politely phrased "yes, we understand your concern but P3 has lots of new features and it needs time to develop with the players". Not even that sort of noncommittal BS that we have all come to expect. Instead, just silence. So if they are even aware that there is a problem, they are doing a heck of a job hiding that awareness.

Hi Bud Crue,
there is a hope that PGI is aware of the current state of the FW.
From latest (June) TH:

Quote

Faction Play. Trying to reduce the number of buckets to reduce wait time. Basically trying to narrow it down to Clans vs IS. Russ is willing to have a roundtable conversation with 8-10 of the most significant unit leaders. Russ says FP is still not settled in to the point where they’re just going to tweak it. He’s not entirely happy with it, so significant changes are still necessary.

Let's hope for the best.

[Tom Sawyer]

Wana buy a mechpack?

[Lord Baconburger]

Bud Crue, on 21 June 2016 - 04:22 AM, said:

At this point I don't see CW being revived. Period. It would take far more effort than PGI has ever expended on anything and I have no reason to believe that they 1) see that there is problem to begin with or 2) that even if they acknowledged that a problem exists that they are willing or capable of doing anything about it.

As to 1). We have Russ public comment from the May townhall the P3 is it; and all that will follow is incremental fixes and changes from here on out. We have had no real comment regarding CW since P3 dropped. As far as the player base goes, based on the forums and comments coming from MS and other large units, many of their once most dedicated players have given up on the mode and for some the game.

As to 2) The forums, in game chat, reddit and even Russ's twitter feed all have contained enui to outright negativity regarding P3 from players, yet there has been ZERO commentary from PGI to address it. Nothing. Just silence. No comments or responses of: "yeah we are on it" or "that might need to be addressed soon" not even a politely phrased "yes, we understand your concern but P3 has lots of new features and it needs time to develop with the players". Not even that sort of noncommittal BS that we have all come to expect. Instead, just silence. So if they are even aware that there is a problem, they are doing a heck of a job hiding that awareness.

I think all of you with great ideas (or even bad ideas) for CW are looking for hope where there is none to be found. Prove me wrong, please. My only inkling of hope is that today's patch is one of those that feels like two steps forward instead of one step back. If it is maybe hoping for better CW is not that futile after all. Prove me right PGI, please.

This echoes our sentiments, including the ones in anger. Such a large number of players displaying anger over the same things is an obvious cause for concern and *should* be moreso for a developer. In this context you can understand why people are very angry over what has happened. We were promised so much to make us buy more into the game, then just before P3 release pretty much saying "This is what you have and all you are going to get, but we've got more mechs coming out on sale, so buy those". They seem to be designing new mechs left right and centre, go figure.

Hell, they're not even taking on ideas and offers of support from the community on the matters that are concerning. Why not? I'm completely perplexed by this. It's weird. I've said before in relation to PGI, that if they came out and said "We're sorry, but we feel like we've gone as far as we can go apart from minor changes here and there", that would be a bitter tablet to take but understandable and a more honest and upfront one at that. Even though there would be anger and disappointment, they wouldn't have been met with such a backlash that is present right now. And again, you'd expect them to take on help from a community that has helped the game become what it is, through time and money invested.

The fact that PGI are consistently ducking and weaving away from providing direct answers on these matters to the community is not good at all. Its abhorrent and ignorant behaviour. These "changes" coming in this patch do not fix this in any way shape or form. It's a "You wanted almonds? Well, you're only getting acorns and you'll like it or lump it". Crappy analogy, but you get its context.

Another thing PGI tend to forget is that prospective new players check out the website and read the forums of a game before they decide to play. They're going to see a hell of a lot of angry people, pretty much saying the same thing and silence from a developer who does not listen or respond on these matters to their audience. People actually care about this. PGI, I wonder if they are purposefully doing this. It's really wild, to think like this, but it can be the only logical conclusion given their past actions, lack of fulfilled promises and the apparent intentional broken communication entirely on the part of PGI.

Its a damn shame.

[Bud Crue]

invernomuto, on 21 June 2016 - 05:10 AM, said:

...Let's hope for the best.

I liked what you emphasized from the TH summary. It puts a nice positive spin on it. It is hopeful that continued change (significant change) is needed and may be in-coming. Alas, that I believe was editorializing by Alistair when he made the summary. I'll have to go back and watch the video but I got more of a "yeah, yeah, there are problems and we will get to them when we get to them, if we get to them" sort of vibe. My cynicism may be clouding my own judgement here. But even if the Summary you cite is straight up quotation of Russ, the fact that he is not entirely happy with CW suggests that he is happy with an awful lot of it, and that just boggles my mind given the current state of affairs.

Edit:

Also as to the last TH...the fact that rather that fix CW and try to attract players, Russ instead seems open to reducing the number of factions so as to make the game more playable for those few who remain does not bode well for the idea of any imminent big fixes to CW.

Edited by Bud Crue, 21 June 2016 - 05:53 AM.

[rolly]

Bravo and thank you on the effort and thought. I do believe you are onto something. Sadly this isn't going to help. At most PGI will file it away as "isn't this cute, they have ideas..."

It will be band-aid solutions all the way. I completely agree with folks like Bud Crue, despite our best hopes, ideas and wishes, I highly doubt any revamp will happen this year or before 2020.

[Rebas Kradd]

Lord Baconburger, on 21 June 2016 - 05:29 AM, said:

This echoes our sentiments, including the ones in anger. Such a large number of players displaying anger over the same things is an obvious cause for concern and *should* be moreso for a developer.

The problem is that players are also angry about 4,739 other things, and PGI only has limited time and resources. That's the thing most game communities don't understand - most things are not going to get immediate responses. That's simply not realistic. Right now, other things are on the plate.

For those insisting from the May Townhall that Russ has no intention of improving FP significantly, the JUNE Townhall had him mention the need for improvements. He also specifically mentioned a new asymmetrical gamemode, which IMO is a big part of the problem behind the low population. Invasion (AKA chokepoint warfare) is punishing, imbalanced, and repetitive. So the news that new gamemodes are on their way is welcome.

I'm not worried about the low population. People are constantly checking back into the game to see what new improvements there are. If we can get a gamemode that offers some real depth, tactics, and choices (like the one in my sig), people will see it. From there it's a matter of getting a real metagame into CW - logistics, economy, variety.

As far as the OP's suggestion - I like widening the maps up, and I honestly think Conquest is a better gamemode to be using in FW than any other. As far as the new Assault, we'll need to wait and see.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 21 June 2016 - 10:49 AM.

[Triordinant]

They spent time, effort and money on this instead:

[Domoneky]

Triordinant, on 21 June 2016 - 10:54 AM, said:

They spent time, effort and money on this instead:

This just pisses me off. The more I watch it the more I have a need to burn the servers down.

[Bud Crue]

Rebas Kradd, on 21 June 2016 - 08:00 AM, said:

For those insisting from the May Townhall that Russ has no intention of improving FP significantly, the JUNE Townhall had him mention the need for improvements. He also specifically mentioned a new asymmetrical gamemode, which IMO is a big part of the problem behind the low population. Invasion (AKA chokepoint warfare) is punishing, imbalanced, and repetitive. So the news that new gamemodes are on their way is welcome.

Your optimism is duly noted, but I think unfounded as far as CW goes and the context of your post. You make reference to the proposed asymmetrical game mode mentioned in the last town hall as evidence that Russ plans on improving CW. Yet that proposal like so many others is so far off and tenuous that even Russ admitted it has no ETA. Compare that to last months mention of Solaris as coming soon, but this month he says technical difficulties are putting it a ways off. To me, the suggestion that CW will be fixed any time soon is more of the same.

To my ears, vauge promises of possible stuff, that may be introduced at some far off, unknown date, do not suggest a real push to provide significant improvement to a game mode that many believe is broken if not dead, but which Russ is merely "not entirely happy with".

Edit: the new advertisement for CW posted today, also suggests to me that PGI is confident that CW is in a state sufficient to be...well...advertised. Would they be having such a video made if they were planning on any big fixes anytime soon?

Edited by Bud Crue, 21 June 2016 - 11:56 AM.

[Lehmund]

Honestly, PGI doesn't need to go as far as what I first described in this thread to make things more fun and varied....

I'd be very interested in seeing how fun a map would be with more terrain involved, a few objectives (conquest or Assault mode style) and without the mega choke points. Then see if the queues fill up.

I bet most people don't play FW much just because they don't like it. If players enjoy it, they'll queue up for it and we can see then if we really need to consolidate queues into IS and Clan globally...

[TheLuc]

What is truly killing the game is the fact its only PVP, if FP had bots to fill the holes and be able to get matches in like 5 mins then it would be quick play that would be empty

as long as the game will rely on population, it will never grow.

[MischiefSC]

Simple fixes -

One world per front. No attack/defend queue. One queue per front removes a ton of the issues associated with pug/premade and 'we only attack' problems and the like. Whoever loses, next world is 1 further into their territory.

Payout comparable to your contribution. None of this 'tag a world get MC' stuff. If you participate in 10 wins on a world that flips you get, say, 10 MC and then 1 MC per day that the world stays up to, say, 7 days. Same amount of MC given currently just divided differently. So there's a strong impetus to play with units and teams that win matches and strong impetus to help flip a world. This eliminates a lot of the reasons for conflict between pug and premade teams (read - big units).

Payout comparable to who you play against. use PSR ratings of teams to create a payout multiplier. A top tier team, prepade or mixed of people with high PSR, who stomp a bunch of scrubs makes way less than if they stomp another good team. A bad team that even loses to a good team get's a passable payout. You pay people more for beating good teams and you promote people seeking matches against good teams.

These are ideas that seem like they could work with relatively little huge development and would solve a lot of underlying issues.