176 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

TercieI, on 30 June 2016 - 05:45 AM, said:

I keep seeing this comment but why? Movement archetype is a funny name. All it controls is hill climbing and collision box size. It doesn't actually affect agility.

That's correct. It causes the Jenner to slow down more and faster - substantially so - when moving uphill. Slower=easier target=stops on more steep inclines than it used to.

Movement archetypes have a significant impact on how a mech transverses obstacles.

But still, as with the scale changes, it's very hard to predict - to quantify, more accurately - the game impact of these changes.

[TercieI]

Wintersdark, on 30 June 2016 - 06:17 AM, said:

That's correct. It causes the Jenner to slow down more and faster - substantially so - when moving uphill. Slower=easier target=stops on more steep inclines than it used to.

Movement archetypes have a significant impact on how a mech transverses obstacles.

But still, as with the scale changes, it's very hard to predict - to quantify, more accurately - the game impact of these changes.

Ok, that's fair, but a lot of commenters make it sound like a general agility nerf, which it's not.

[bukidog]

I've been playing on and off for about 3 years, and I only ever have run lights ( i will always consider a cicada a light, because...cmon). Been running locusts for quite a bit of that time, and to be honest the rescale hasn't changed much for me. I was doing 500+/- dmg, several kills in one match and 0/0 one shotted in another. The fact is the lct was always small, always fast and always hard to hit. But hit it and it's pretty much boned. Still the case.

Other lights took a hit in the rescale though, and it seems that a lot of good light pilots are making the switch. locust is the new hipster. But no, not op. Not even meta. Light pilots' techniques transfer between most light mechs, and whichever one is the flavor of the day, you can be sure the heavy/assault pilots will be QQing and calling for nerfs.

The truth is, I don't like slow mechs and I am pure shite at running heavies etc. I respect those that do it well ( I prey on those who don't). I don't go on the forums and complain about the heavies being too hard to kill, or (more often) killing me too easily. I simply respect that I was beat and drop into the next match. So it amazes me the amount of complaining that you see from the heavy/assault pilots. They honestly don't believe there is skill in running light. As though all light pilots just rely on bugs and cheats. This is equal to me saying that assaults exploiting a cheat that increases their armor and firepower. I, like many other before, ask all those that complain to do some runs in a locust, or any other light. See what it takes to be any good.

by they way, I'm not good. I just enjoy lights. Mostly to perform mech assisted suicide

Edited by bukidog, 30 June 2016 - 06:45 AM.

[Maugged]

Lily from animove, on 30 June 2016 - 06:12 AM, said:

The locust takes hardly any if he uses terrain right his small size make shim appear, fire and disappear on a safe distance. It is about playstyle and learning to be unpreidctable, because when you are predictable you eat those alphas.

What is your point exactly? Apart confirming that this is related to player skill and thus not the locust being OP. If it was OP every locust would be carrying every games they enter but it's not the case..

[Lightfoot]

I see more Cheetah's than Locusts, as many Ravens as Locusts, lots of Oxides, my other Jenner carries 4xMPulse and 2xSmalls and goes almost as fast as a Locust. Not sure making the Jenner so large was the right course, but attacking when targets are distracted is very successful still.

[Jables McBarty]

I stepped away from reading this thread a couple days ago, but I've been reading in reverse order and stumbled upon this gem...

Chados, on 26 June 2016 - 04:15 AM, said:

I think the Locust is fine. I hate the little pests but they can't one-shot you and you thus have a chance to survive an ambush.

Jenners? Long may they be nerfed. I got sick of one-shot, one-kill instagibs in the back, or if the RNG deity was kind, I'd get to turn around for one shot back and Oxides in particular are armored like a 50-tonner so that did no good before another 70-point alpha finished me off. Think about that. Missile Jenners, particularly the IIC Jenner, matches a Catapult Butterbee-65 tons-in raw firepower. You want tiny Jenners? Cool. Drop all the armor and structure quirks, nerf missile hardpoints to the point that they pack a total firepower of about 25, and hard lock both Endosteel and Ferro-fibrous to keep launcher sizes and ammo counts down.

Now Chados, I read your responses and I understand that you run exclusively heavies, but this is....this is just ignorant. There's not a single IS light that I've run without ES and FF.

Here's my standard Oxide Build:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...06fd25cf30ee5da

You'll notice that it's a 32-damage alpha. No Artemis so there's always some spread. Max tube count is 20 for a 40-damage alpha (since you can't fit 2 SRM6s on the CT).

Even if your Catapult is running only 6 armor rear ST, it has a total of 48hp (30 base + 6 armor + 12 AS). The Oxide can't kill that with one hit. If you are getting one-shotted, equip Case and remove your XL because it can only be ammo explosions that are doing the work.

Yes, the IIC can do a 72-point alpha, but they need to equip a smaller engine to fit it and have zero quirks. Relatively easy to destroy. Also they can't afford to equip Artemis, and clan SRM6s natively have a very wide spread. Not saying it's not a priority target, but it is definitely counterable.

Edited by Jables McBarty, 30 June 2016 - 08:41 AM.

[Wintersdark]

TercieI, on 30 June 2016 - 06:19 AM, said:

Ok, that's fair, but a lot of commenters make it sound like a general agility nerf, which it's not.

Indeed. Like many things, people usually.dont really understand the game.mechanics. Not their fault, really, as it's complicated and not really documented anywhere.

[Weeny Machine]

Lily from animove, on 30 June 2016 - 06:12 AM, said:

yes we spout get gud, and you know why?

Yeah, I have one or two theories why you do it.

Just one thing blows your long rant out of the water. The majority of players gravitate always in all games to the class/hero/vehicle/come whatever which is easiest to use or offers substantial advantages. The class in this game with the lowest rate were the lights.

As for proper performance:
Take a Jenner IIC and put a 300XL in then a Centurion D, heck even a Catapult with a 300 XL and tell me which one is more responsive when you change direction. There is a frikkin 15/30t difference...

Edited by Bush Hopper, 30 June 2016 - 09:30 AM.

[Maugged]

Jables McBarty, on 30 June 2016 - 08:40 AM, said:

Now Chados, I read your responses and I understand that you run exclusively heavies, but this is....this is just ignorant. There's not a single IS light that I've run without ES and FF.

Dood seriously learn2adapt. Locust OP period. Try this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...7c1c86b195a88f1

Or this:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...25647b2db33633c

Or that:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...01b852d8289855b

Or that one that is just meta:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...6c4871dc717ec59

You have no excuse now!

[Nightshade24]

adamts01, on 29 June 2016 - 04:41 AM, said:

Meaning the LPL mech is infinitely more versitile. The MG build is really only decent against bads who stray from the team or end of the match cleanup when the battle is already decided.

"infinitely more versatile" doesn't mean exclusively poking occasionally at 600 meters. If anything it's far more limited then the Locust 1V with machine guns.

[Chuck Jager]

I just got my jenner IIC elited after the change, but I still need to use the leveling build with an XL300 and srm 4s.

This is still quick and still puts out good damage. The folks using the xl265 builds with 1 jj could dogfight really well.with too much fire power.

The IIc chassis still does very well with 2-3 builds, but it needs to be elited and have a 300xl. Locust that are elited and have the couple of decent builds may do better with the same level player, but they still die real quick to anything other than lasers (not IS smpls)

[Y E O N N E]

Nightshade24, on 01 July 2016 - 04:49 AM, said:

"infinitely more versatile" doesn't mean exclusively poking occasionally at 600 meters. If anything it's far more limited then the Locust 1V with machine guns.

Not really. The single LPL fires so fast that it's comparable to the 4xMG+MPL build at close range while having the reach to be useful at much larger distances. The MG one also spreads its output around more since it is delivered in smaller packets and it's harder to get two successive MPL blasts into the same spot as one LPL shot.

I run the MG build myself simply because a 1V without MGs is heretical, but it certainly is not more flexible than the LPL.

[Dr Hobo]

Jenners were always kinda big even in the other MW titles. I can see where they came from with adjusting the size(however,their metrics make no sense)

But the Jenner gets JJ,no Locust does. Jenner doesn't get an ECM variant,Locust does. Even 2 JJ are enough to get you out of most sticky situations.

Now,don't get me wrong, I for one,welcome our new Lolcust overlords. May they be merciful because I was getting bored of the Cheetos/Jenners/FS9s armadas.

The Locust is a good mech now,and the perks actually make it competitive to its peers. A Locust generally isn't going to roflstomp your team if there's more than 1-2 of them like a pair of Cheetos or Oxides can ruin a teams day.

Just aim at the torsos like you should be if you're fighting anything with a long torso. There's generally not going to be much stopping you from instagibbing it. Especially from the rear. It's basically a midget Raven now and those die pretty much all the time to ST loss.

However,the stance seems funny now. I think it should be lowered by like a degree or two just so the legs dont look ramrod straight.

But now I want my damn Flea.

[Y E O N N E]

Dr Hobo, on 01 July 2016 - 01:27 PM, said:

But now I want my damn Flea.

pgi pls

[Darian DelFord]

Dr Hobo, on 01 July 2016 - 01:27 PM, said:

But the Jenner gets JJ,no Locust does. Jenner doesn't get an ECM variant,Locust does. Even 2 JJ are enough to get you out of most sticky situations.

Just aim at the torsos like you should be if you're fighting anything with a long torso. There's generally not going to be much stopping you from instagibbing it. Especially from the rear. It's basically a midget Raven now and those die pretty much all the time to ST loss.

Actually the JJ's get you killed more than anything else.... I love it when a light is fleeing me and tries to use is 2 JJ's to move....while he is slowly and steadily moving up alpha to his back side torso for the kill. Until they un-nerf JJ's for lights they will get you killed more than they will save you.

[Nightshade24]

Yeonne Greene, on 01 July 2016 - 10:46 AM, said:

Not really. The single LPL fires so fast that it's comparable to the 4xMG+MPL build at close range while having the reach to be useful at much larger distances. The MG one also spreads its output around more since it is delivered in smaller packets and it's harder to get two successive MPL blasts into the same spot as one LPL shot.

I run the MG build myself simply because a 1V without MGs is heretical, but it certainly is not more flexible than the LPL.

ahem:

Large pulse laser: (50% Laser cooldown quirk)
4.215 DPS

Medium Pulse Laser: (50% laser cooldown quirk)
Machine Guns (4): (20% MG ROF)
2.505 DPS + 4.8 DPS = 7.305 DPS.


Let's compare the DPS of both mechs shall we
LPL: 4.215 DPS
MPL + 4MG: 7.305
( difference: 3.09. Slightly shy from 1 whole damage per second from being double)

And with the rule with larger numbers... the more time you you fire, the more likely (as a bell curve average using mean) you will inevitably do more damage to say a center torso with a MPL then a LPL

Sure, 1 shot of a LPL may mean 100% hit while MPL it may mean 50% hit. however that 100% hit may be a 0% hit just as easisly.
If we increase the hits to say 10 LPL hits and 20 MPL laser hits. It's far more likely the MPL (with the average* player of MW: O) will most likely land 50-75% hits to the CT while a LPL will more likely be lower, closer to the 50% mark. (ROF also decreases the time a mech can turn to role damage as well, it's hard to avoid all the MPL bursts but easier for the LPL bursts to be avoided) However this is all up to personal prefference and your personal skill, Some people preffer a worse DPS/ longer reload with higher Damage while others preffer all up in your face mass DPS and such.

Reguardless, as you can see, I'm partial to the MG and ML build, which was my first light mech build to hit over 1000 damage.

[Y E O N N E]

Nightshade24, on 01 July 2016 - 05:22 PM, said:

ahem:

Large pulse laser: (50% Laser cooldown quirk)
4.215 DPS

Medium Pulse Laser: (50% laser cooldown quirk)
Machine Guns (4): (20% MG ROF)
2.505 DPS + 4.8 DPS = 7.305 DPS.


Let's compare the DPS of both mechs shall we
LPL: 4.215 DPS
MPL + 4MG: 7.305
( difference: 3.09. Slightly shy from 1 whole damage per second from being double)

And with the rule with larger numbers... the more time you you fire, the more likely (as a bell curve average using mean) you will inevitably do more damage to say a center torso with a MPL then a LPL

Sure, 1 shot of a LPL may mean 100% hit while MPL it may mean 50% hit. however that 100% hit may be a 0% hit just as easisly.
If we increase the hits to say 10 LPL hits and 20 MPL laser hits. It's far more likely the MPL (with the average* player of MW: O) will most likely land 50-75% hits to the CT while a LPL will more likely be lower, closer to the 50% mark. (ROF also decreases the time a mech can turn to role damage as well, it's hard to avoid all the MPL bursts but easier for the LPL bursts to be avoided) However this is all up to personal prefference and your personal skill, Some people preffer a worse DPS/ longer reload with higher Damage while others preffer all up in your face mass DPS and such.

Reguardless, as you can see, I'm partial to the MG and ML build, which was my first light mech build to hit over 1000 damage.

Must you always write an essay to reply in every thread?

Anyway, your numbers are wrong. The LPL deals 7.15 DPS after quirks and module (I left out the skill tree since I can't remember the value). The MPL deals 4.26 DPS, the MGs deal 3.84. So it's 7.15 vs. 8.1. Advantage to the LCT-1V with MPL+4xMG in DPS, but the LPL is so short in burn it's pragmatically un-spreadable. The only portion of the other build that's qualitatively the same is the MPL, the MGs will go everywhere. At best, it becomes a wash on that single component assuming your target is not a potato.

But...the LPL can also begin this engagement sooner. It doesn't have to risk as much to start dealing that damage. And, when played properly, it doesn't just poke occasionally; it pokes constantly.

So, absolute advantage? LPL, every time.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 01 July 2016 - 06:17 PM.

[adamts01]

Nightshade24, on 01 July 2016 - 04:49 AM, said:

"infinitely more versatile" doesn't mean exclusively poking occasionally at 600 meters. If anything it's far more limited then the Locust 1V with machine guns.

Machine guns are only useful against scrubs that let you shoot them in their stripped back and take their weapons. That LPL has a .3 second duration and a 1.5 second cooldown for 11 points with an optimal range out to 440ish with modules. To put that in to perspective, that's essentially like running dual AC5s with unlimited ammo on a cool running, 156kph, highly maneuverable light half the size of a Raven. It's not just an annoying poker at 600, it works very well up close as well. MGs are only useful against stripped mechs that happen to have valuable weapons in those locations, and you still have to get dangerously close and spend time on your target. Those weapons are just too situational, especially against real players, who won't let you leg hump their Atlas.

[MauttyKoray]

Bush Hopper, on 30 June 2016 - 05:53 AM, said:

It seemd that it does influence turning and yaw. The 35 tonners are pretty sluggish now. The Jenner IIC feels as if you drive a school bus now. It wasn't really agile before but now... But heck, even the Wolfhound-1, one of the fastest lights, feels somewhat "spongy" when drive it after the patch

As I said before: put a 300XL into a Jenner IIC and the same engine into a Centurion-D. Then drive some evasive maneuvers. It is shocking how reactive the Centurion is compared to the Jenner

think of how a human balances, arms, body, feet, etc. Now think of how the Jenner is...balance is definitely different and I don't think the non-arm mechs were ever meant to be as 'agile' as ones with arms. Even the locust feels way too agile to me, with things like accel/decel making sense but crazy turn rates and such just feel crazy with that sort of balance.

Idk, might just be a personal thing for me.

[Darian DelFord]

MauttyKoray, on 01 July 2016 - 06:55 PM, said:

think of how a human balances, arms, body, feet, etc. Now think of how the Jenner is...balance is definitely different and I don't think the non-arm mechs were ever meant to be as 'agile' as ones with arms. Even the locust feels way too agile to me, with things like accel/decel making sense but crazy turn rates and such just feel crazy with that sort of balance.

Idk, might just be a personal thing for me.

But without those crazy turns the locust is toast....

Without crazy turns most lights are toast.