57 replies to this topic

[Yosharian]

So now that our Overlords have patched the mighty Minimap of Doom and made it slightly more bearable, let's analyse what it brings to the table.

First of all, a look at what the new minimap looks like compared to the old one.


https://s32.postimg....h/map_comp1.jpg

These screens are taken from the same map, the one on the right is a little fuzzy because it's taken from a captured video that I have on my hard drive from ages ago.

1) The new map has thinner, tighter lines for mech icons and is much more zoomed out.

2) The old map has more zoomed-in elements (grid coordinates, mech icons).

3) The old map has mech icons with much thicker lines and far simpler designs, simply a triangle.

4) Map terrain is much, much harder to view and understand from a gameplay perspective. Bog suffers greatly in particular from this issue. On old Bog, it was easy to determine where geographically significant structures were. New Bog is a mess of pixel art. Here is an image to demonstrate:


https://s31.postimg....aaj/old_bog.jpg --- https://s31.postimg....2nf/bog_new.jpg
Which one do you think communicates nearby terrain in a better manner?

This is what the new map looks like in map display mode:


https://s31.postimg....map_display.jpg

My take on this: the new map looks awesome in map display mode, but it is a very poor fit for the minimap. The lines are too thin and tight to be easily recogniseable in mini-map mode and the result is a mess of lines that takes a lot more effort to decipher.

The old map was easy to read at a glance and allowed you to determine the number of mechs very quickly. Leaving aside for a moment the concept of allowing the minimap to give out mech orientation data, the fact is that it's much easier to determine mech locations and positions period on the old map, regardless of orientation.

The new map rapidly becomes difficult to read and its aesthetic of tight, thin lines is not at all suited for the minimap. It does look great on the main map display.

My solution: the minimap needs to be returned to its original state. Keep the minimap simple and easy to read. Use clear, simple graphics for terrain, to allow easy navigation. For the main map screen, implement the current system - mech icons show their class. Note that I'm not asking for mech orientation to be displayed again: I don't really care about that. I'm simply asking for a simple shape to be used in the minimap rather than these complex shapes that end up achieving nothing but a mess of lines.

If you're not convinced, examine the following picture and ask yourself: when checking the minimap in the heat of battle, do you really care which of these icons has a line down the middle, or two lines, etc? Or do you simply want to know that there's an enemy here, and a friendly here?


https://s31.postimg....2z/newmap_3.jpg --- https://s32.postimg....dmap_canyon.jpg

Edited by Yosharian, 24 June 2016 - 11:17 AM.

[AssaultPig]

they aren't going to revert it, because apparently this setup is crucial for some ever-vacuous infowar mechanics that may or may not materialize six months from now

that said, eh, at least it's functional now. I think being able to see weight class on the map is a wash compared with seeing facing, and the placeable markers are slightly less obtrusive

it would be nice if terrain features had a bit more contrast to them; maybe that's something PGI could be convinced to add

[smokytehbear]

Yosharian, on 24 June 2016 - 10:51 AM, said:

If you're not convinced, examine the following picture and ask yourself: when checking the minimap in the heat of battle, do you really care which of these icons has a line down the middle, or two lines, etc? Or do you simply want to know that there's an enemy here, and a friendly here?

I thought these things would be useless and that I'd never care who was what. There were a few instances though where it was incredibly helpful much to my surprise. A lot of times (hopefully less than me, bad pillot here) you can get pinched between two groups of enemies after you get over extended. If you just saw 2 heavies when you peeked out the right side and they looked like they were coming toward you and a red blip appears on near your left, heading toward you, should you turn around?

With the old minimap, you almost had to, because if that's a KDK-3 and you don't, you're hosed. Now I can see it's a light, so I won't start to kill 'til I'm getting shot at, hoping my buddies that target locked him in the first place can fend him off.

Long post to answer your question: In this case? No I don't care who's what. In some cases, yes, very much so.

[WarHippy]

New mini-map seems fine now for the most part. If we are supposed to see a difference between mech classes with the icons they are too small and similar to be really noticed during combat in my opinion. At this point the one change I really want as silly as it sounds is that I want new markers for the capture points in Assault and Conquest. Those flags look like giant P's and are not particularly accurate as to the actual location of the cap. I would prefer something else rather than what looks like place holder icons.

[Mystere]

PGi should seriously consider displaying the mini-map and possibly other HUD elements on those currently useless cockpit monitors and on a player's secondary display.

[TercieI]

It's alright, but I'd prefer slightly more contrast. It's just a bit muddy for my eyes.

[Raso]

Mystere, on 24 June 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

PGi should seriously consider displaying the mini-map and possibly other HUD elements on those currently useless cockpit monitors and on a player's secondary display.

Yeah use the cockpit monitors!
It already seems like the map is pretending to be displayed on the monitor it's floating over.

[Fut]

Mystere, on 24 June 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

PGi should seriously consider displaying the mini-map and possibly other HUD elements on those currently useless cockpit monitors and on a player's secondary display.

I shut all my cockpit monitors off, they're useless and consume system resources too much.
Surely I'm not the only one who has done this.

[Yosharian]

smokytehbear, on 24 June 2016 - 11:09 AM, said:

A lot of times (hopefully less than me, bad pillot here) you can get pinched between two groups of enemies after you get over extended. If you just saw 2 heavies when you peeked out the right side and they looked like they were coming toward you and a red blip appears on near your left, heading toward you, should you turn around?

With the old minimap, you almost had to, because if that's a KDK-3 and you don't, you're hosed. Now I can see it's a light, so I won't start to kill 'til I'm getting shot at, hoping my buddies that target locked him in the first place can fend him off.

I prefer to have to either a) get a peek at an enemy silhouette and determine their class from my knowledge of mechs or b ) spend time locking the enemy so that I can get target data in order to determine their class.

I don't think players should automatically get that data on the minimap, partly because I don't think the minimap is big enough to display that kind of information quickly and effectively but also because I don't like the fact that it replaces knowing mechs and risking the acquisition of targeting data.

You know, just a wild stab in the dark here, but, if you had to go into the main map screen to get that data, well, then... maybe people might actually use it?

Edited by Yosharian, 24 June 2016 - 11:23 AM.

[Yosharian]

WarHippy, on 24 June 2016 - 11:11 AM, said:

New mini-map seems fine now for the most part. If we are supposed to see a difference between mech classes with the icons they are too small and similar to be really noticed during combat in my opinion. At this point the one change I really want as silly as it sounds is that I want new markers for the capture points in Assault and Conquest. Those flags look like giant P's and are not particularly accurate as to the actual location of the cap. I would prefer something else rather than what looks like place holder icons.

Hence my argument of replacing the complex class-based icons with simple, easy-to-identify icons similar to the old triangle, and moving class data to the main map screen so that data can still be acquired but it doesn't clutter up the minimap.

And I also agree with the capture point issue you raised, the current icons are horrendous.

AssaultPig, on 24 June 2016 - 11:05 AM, said:

they aren't going to revert it, because apparently this setup is crucial for some ever-vacuous infowar mechanics that may or may not materialize six months from now

that said, eh, at least it's functional now. I think being able to see weight class on the map is a wash compared with seeing facing, and the placeable markers are slightly less obtrusive

it would be nice if terrain features had a bit more contrast to them; maybe that's something PGI could be convinced to add

It can still be used for info-war - just on the main map screen rather than on the minimap.

I agree that it's functional, that wasn't the point of my post. Our old minimap was better than functional - that's my point.

Glad you agree with the terrain issues.

[AnTi90d]

I hate the new minimap.

I hate the new minimap icons.

I do, however, like the command wheel.

The best idea I've seen, thusfar, is to merge the old icons with the new ones. Have icons that tell you what weight class a mech is as well as telling you the direction.

The lower tiers are really suffering without friendly doritos. They're walking in front of each other much more often, backing up into each other more often and just generally having no idea of the spacial relationship between them and their team mates.

FP coordination has dropped, as it isn't easy anymore to form a perfect fireline and, when the enemy is finally spotted, the diamonds are hollow and difficult to see and many people don't even notice them.

Also, if your sensors can detect the exact armor values of an enemy mech's front armor and back armor, your sensors should know which way they're facing.. or we wouldn't even have a lock-on system.

..eh, it's not like we can change Russ' mind on anything, though. He wasted invested time and money to make this abomination downgraded minimap and he's going to shove it down our throats no matter what we want.

..but I won't ever consider giving them one cent, again. This week, they stole my doritos.. what will they come to steal, next?

[Yosharian]

AnTi90d, on 24 June 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

..eh, it's not like we can change Russ' mind on anything, though. He wasted invested time and money to make this abomination downgraded minimap and he's going to shove it down our throats no matter what we want.

The olive branch is to keep the new map for the main map screen and go back to something like what we had before for our minimap, though

[SOL Ranger]

Yosharian, on 24 June 2016 - 10:51 AM, said:

1) The new map has thinner, tighter lines for mech icons...

This is my main gripe with the new one, sure the old one was clearer on the landscape, but it's not a big deal.

The icons however are much too difficult to spot quickly, notably it takes much longer now to identify enemy positions than before, you can't react like in the old minimap to obvious in your face enemy presence indicators but rather now you have to carefully analyse the map and find the icons and then react to them. It's a big deal taking precious seconds for no good reason at all.

Mech icons should be more well defined, thicker so they clearly stand out on the map.

Edited by SOL Ranger, 24 June 2016 - 01:08 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Does anyone really care which direction the feet of the mechs around you are facing? Those doritos some folks seem to miss never showed you what a mech was looking at, only where its feet were pointed. That's what caused so many people problems with the old new minimap.

What good is it to know if an enemy's feet are pointed away from you, if their torso is pointed right at you and you can't see that?

The new icons are vastly more useful.

I never noticed before that the new level of terrain detail can obscure elevation data. I suppose that really only applies to certain dense maps with significant overhanging features like Viridian Bog and Forest Colony. I'm wondering if it'd be possible for a pure terrain elevation map to be used instead. That might be more useful data to have than how dense the trees are in your area.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Actually, I kinda prefer the new coloring of the minimap on certain maps, Bog you do have a point with but for some it isn't as bad, the main problem with seeing terrain details is the zoom level, not so much the coloring.

[LTDominator]

i like the new new minimap, i like the rescale and i like the new frozen city. i was sceptical but i think the game going in the right direction now

gg pgi

[C E Dwyer]

I don't really like the icons they are using, but I do like the fact they are not giving you direction, it adds a bit of doubt and you have to read its motion and then take an educated guess, if you want cast iron security, ask another that actually has eye balls on the target.

All in all, not having everything on a plate makes things better, though it does need work

[smokytehbear]

ScarecrowES, on 24 June 2016 - 01:30 PM, said:

Does anyone really care which direction the feet of the mechs around you are facing? Those doritos some folks seem to miss never showed you what a mech was looking at, only where its feet were pointed. That's what caused so many people problems with the old new minimap.

What good is it to know if an enemy's feet are pointed away from you, if their torso is pointed right at you and you can't see that?

The new icons are vastly more useful.

I never noticed before that the new level of terrain detail can obscure elevation data. I suppose that really only applies to certain dense maps with significant overhanging features like Viridian Bog and Forest Colony. I'm wondering if it'd be possible for a pure terrain elevation map to be used instead. That might be more useful data to have than how dense the trees are in your area.

It wasn't guaranteed where they were looking for the sake of ambushing, but it told you where they were going, for the sake of not being ambushed. It was never a silver bullet, but it cost essentially nothing, and it was therefore free information. Plenty of people didn't use it and most people have been able to adapt to not having it, but it was definitely valuable before.

Oh it also could help you predict allied movements. Less essential on actual teams, but with pugs that don't communicate it made it a lot easier to not get left behind on a nascar while in a slow mech. Yeah I know, git gud. I'm just saying for the people who already struggled from poor situational awareness, it makes it a little harder.

People can call it a crutch if they want, but personally I'm against kicking crutches out from under the handicapped except in very rare cases.

Only gripe I have with the terrain detail is that once again it's "map"-based and not radar. Now of course you can't see the other side of the mountain via radar either, but at least it felt more like topography and not just a satellite picture of the area. Maybe PGI could give us the option to turn it grayscale? I'd settle for that.

[Mystere]

LTDominator, on 24 June 2016 - 01:39 PM, said:

i like the new new minimap, i like the rescale and i like the new frozen city. i was sceptical but i think the game going in the right direction now

gg pgi

If course you like the new mini-map. The post-patch version was horrendous.

smokytehbear, on 24 June 2016 - 01:51 PM, said:

People can call it a crutch if they want, but personally I'm against kicking crutches out from under the handicapped except in very rare cases.

If people think that is a crutch then the HUD is one gigantic critch that should be disposed of immediately.

Edited by Mystere, 24 June 2016 - 03:48 PM.

[Deathpactt]

I am colorblind and all I can say; I can not see **** with new map.