21 replies to this topic

[Requiemking]

So, I've designed some Phoenix Hawk builds, but I would like some input on them. Here they are, tell me what you think.

Soaring Phoenix

Dakka Hawk

Sniper Hawk

Brawling Hawk

Iron Man

and finally, a nice troll build. (Because where would we be if nobody made a troll build for the Phoenix hawk?)
Phoenix Star

Edited by Requiemking, 25 June 2016 - 10:52 PM.

[Rock Roller]

I would roll with the last one. check out Metamech's site. The best for the current meta are up. About the best you will be able to find. The 1b and 1k seem to be the best models to me.

[The Basilisk]

1st...too low dps and in case of jumpsniping too low alpha additionally excessive jumpjet use will hinder your heat dissipation in direct combat.

2nd...AC2s just don't work...too much face time, too low alpha, too high agro.

3rd...there are no snipers in MWO and even if .... you alpha is way too low to strike an enemy mech down.

4th...PXHs are awfull brawlers due to their large frontal silhuette and and low armor dont go below 250m - 300m.

6th... why would you put a standart reaktor and weaponry of a light mech on a now slowish medium that always gets his arms shot of first and then gets instacored by the next alpha ?

Sorry dude, but .... well won't drive one of them.

If you want to try something away from metamechs that works try the PXH-1 with some large lasers and if you want to do some gimpy stuff pack MGs (while I have to say MGs can be real killstealing machines in lategame)

Frontload damage for PPC users. PXH-1B gimpy version
Pure version
JJs in Leggs for max hight and low frontal acceleration.
As I said...MGs are frowned uppon but exploding leggs on slow SRM and AC Mechs are always fun to watch after braking down their leggarmor with some PPC blasts.

PXH-1K
Remember the main advantage a medium mech has ove a light is the greater heatcapacity.
But you still can't stay in prolongued fights cause your armor is so low.
--> increase the frequencys of your attack runs, decrease the frequencys of your cool down phases.

So...hope this helps.

[epikt]

On a Phoenix Hawk you'll want a build working at mid range or longer, that does not require face-time, and fast. Most of your builds don't meet the requirements.
(I also see some of your builds don't have full armor, especially on the arms ; did you ever field tested this thing? arms are destroyed way too fast, even with full armor, every armor point is needed)

1/ too many jump jets kill the jump jets... you don't need to fly with a LPLas mech. If you want a Poptart, you have to use PPCs. 2 PPCs work on the Phoenix (I tested it with 4 jets), even if BlackJacks and Vindicators are much better at the job (yup, Vindies are better)

2/ that thing crossed my mind, but I haven't test it (I would have used a 255 engine). But unfortunately I doubt it will work, AC/2 requires you to face your target (and their teammates!) all the time, that probably means your arms will fall in 2 seconds. Not to mention AC/2s don't worth the tonnage without massive cooldown quirks.

3/ too many jets. And get rid of that beagle probe. With one ERPPC, 3 lasers and a real engine it should work decently.

4/ "brawling hawk"? I don't need to see the build, it won't work.
(their is absolutemy no use for a STD engine on this mech, it takes everything in the arms and CT, chances you'll die by side torsos is minime ; better have speed)

5/ too many DHS for way too few weapons. And that AMS won't save your life, no more than the slow STD.

Basilisk's builds make sense, try them and/or look at them for inspiration.

[Requiemking]

Well, I've found a build that I'm enjoying, my unitmates aren't raging at me for using, and can act as a great team helper.

Firebird

Yes, it uses Flamers, and it does so well. Here is a version that uses an XL engine.

Firebird MK.2

Edited by Requiemking, 26 June 2016 - 10:20 PM.

[Felix von Buelow]

Requiemking, on 26 June 2016 - 10:19 PM, said:

Well, I've found a build that I'm enjoying, my unitmates aren't raging at me for using, and can act as a great team helper.

Firebird

Yes, it uses Flamers, and it does so well. Here is a version that uses an XL engine.

Firebird MK.2

That is actually pretty interesting. I'll try it out later and depending on the outcome I'll let you know.

Edit: doesnt work for me in PUG queue at least. I need to get too close and without proper cooperation im just dying in 2 salvos...

Edited by GhostNemesys, 27 June 2016 - 11:22 AM.

[Bluefalcon13]

My ROC build seemed to do pretty decent in the leader boards. Sitting at 9th unless someone bumps me down.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b3c10722db0a8ae

I sometimes swap out the LPLas for an erLLas and 2 DHS. Both builds work well, but the erLLas tends to poke a bit better due to more range. I play it as a poker, from far away. If the battle is moving fast I just try to put pressure on the enemies from closer in on the flanks. Basically never commit but stay at the edge of SSRMs, and flank.

[Requiemking]

GhostNemesys, on 27 June 2016 - 01:38 AM, said:

That is actually pretty interesting. I'll try it out later and depending on the outcome I'll let you know.

Edit: doesnt work for me in PUG queue at least. I need to get too close and without proper cooperation im just dying in 2 salvos...

It's works best in the group queue, when you can mark targets, flame them into submission, the use your two MPLs to help take them down. Firebird isn't designed to be a kill mech. It's an assist farming mech. Yeah, you can flame-lock lights into your killzone, but your better off helping your team take down much larger things than chasing some squirrel.

Edited by Requiemking, 27 June 2016 - 07:19 PM.

[epikt]

Bluefalcon13, on 27 June 2016 - 05:06 AM, said:

My ROC build seemed to do pretty decent in the leader boards. Sitting at 9th

I don't want to sound like an @&#$, but it probably only works because you're not in a high tier. This mech is slow, with way too many jets, no ferrofibrous upgrade, IS streak are useless weapons dealing few damage and restraining your mobility,... here is a tweak that should work much better.

Edited by epikt, 28 June 2016 - 08:15 AM.

[PeeWrinkle]

Only your 1K Build is terrible. The others are okay. They wont be meta, but then again who cares about that. As long as you can play them.

I have tried several builds now on each and have decided I like speed over firepower. The hitboxes on these are not great so the speed helps me keep my arms longer and spread damage much better. JJs also help with this so I like high flyers as well.

Right now I have moved away from any builds that don't utilize and XL280 or higher, with the exception of my sniper which uses an XL255. In the sniper this is not bad as it has ECM and just goes up high and pokes.
Here are my current builds:
PXH-1: Mid-range skirmisher. I orginally had 1JJ, 3LPLs, and an XL255, but did not like the speed. This build suits me better even though LPLs are my favorite weapon at the moment.
PXH-1B: A work in progress. I have switched this one a lot. Right now I am liking the ERPPC Build the most. Although I have swapped it out with a LPL and that was fun too.
PXH-1K: Speedy Brawler. I originally had this with 8SPLs instead, but like the extra range of the MLs. It is a bit hot, but just fire 3ML in RA, 3ML in LA, and 2ML in CT all on different weapon groups separately and it does fine. I switched because I had a difficult time getting close enough to be effective with the SPLs.
PXH-2: Sniper. Great with advanced zoom. Here is a faster version I have experimented with. Seems to work well and is much cooler so I get a more constant rate of fire.
PXH-3: This a brawler and I really like it. I have entered going with just MLs over MPLs or an LBX10 to get a bigger engine, but I like it too much to change it. I have thought about using 3 tons of ammo, but I usually loose the arm just after I run out of ammo so I figure it is not worth it.
PXH-KK: Very fun brawler, similar to my PXH-3 build. I Have enterained dropping to 2 tons of ammo as usually around 45 shots I loose the arm anyway or the match ends. I would put that ton to increase my engine and speed.
PXH-ROC: Another brawler. Probably my least favorite, as I have not gotten the hang of it yet, but I want to use missiles as it is the only one with missile hardpoints.

On all my builds tend to lead towards lower alphas, with more sustained fire and speed. That is what works best for me. I also don't like more than 4JJs as I seem to loose control while flying around, but I can't lie maxing out the JJs can be quite fun. Problem is I just run and jump around and forget to fight! LOL

[Bluefalcon13]

epikt, on 28 June 2016 - 08:11 AM, said:

I don't want to sound like an @&#$, but it probably only works because you're not in a high tier. This mech is slow, with way too many jets, no ferrofibrous upgrade, IS streak are useless weapons dealing few damage and restraining your mobility,... here is a tweak that should work much better.

Let's consider this:

1. When a player who took a significant break from the game left before PSR was implemented comes back, their PSR is 5. Therefore I have no control over PSR. Within slightly more than a week, I have climbed to their 3 and steadily increasing.
2. My teammates are roughly equally tiered, therefore my support is just as abysmal as the enemy teams.

I'd argue that because of point 2, a mech, any mech that does well needs to stand more on its own, as their team's support is already at a reduced state because of the 'lower' tier. My build works for my playstyle, and while your build is interesting, if I wanted to limit jump abilities, I'd take a -1k for its better energy hard points. The SSRMs, I could agree with you as the cost of running the SSRMs and a BAP could be considered higher than two SRM4s. I took those primarily to not need to lead to hit with the missles, particularly because I am using a build that runs lasers, which have no lead time. That and they are there for the enemy lights mostly. I have run dual SRM4s but I find the BAP is actually kinda nice for nullifying nearby ecms. Furthermore, the speed isn't a major issue, not nearly as large of an issue as it is made out to be. It's a total of 16kph after speed tweak, at the cost of neutering jump capabilities to not clearing a building or scaling a cliff.

All of this is a null point if you are insinuating something else, at which point, see point 1...

[epikt]

Bluefalcon13, on 28 June 2016 - 02:17 PM, said:

When a player who took a significant break from the game left before PSR was implemented comes back, their PSR is 5. Therefore I have no control over PSR. Within slightly more than a week, I have climbed to their 3

So basically you are stomping weaker players. I don't blame you, you can't do much except for playing and slowly grind the PSR. But it supports my point: in this situation you don't need a good mech.

As I said, streaks will restrict your movements and increase your need to expose yourself and face your targets. The Phoenix Hawk being squishy as it is, I found the only way to survive is to be fast, sneaky and never expose yourself more than required. I'm also not a fan to the LPLas+MPLas combo: I see the appeal, and to a certain extent it's personal preference, but ihmo even in the case it's better than standard MLas it does not worth the tonnage (I also don't like how you place MPLas on both arms, it's yet another thing that makes you less flexible).
As for 6 JJ, it's at least twice what's needed on a mech that's not a poptart.

I understand it's working for you and fits your playstyle, but all I'm saying is the weapon loadout has flaws good players will be able to use against you, plus it's badly optimised (even if you don't want to change at least crank it up to an XL300, which is the sweet spot for a good speed/tonnage balance).

[White Bear 84]

Soaring Phoenix - While tempting as this mech might sound, you REALLY do not need that many JJ, in fact I would argue that this would be wasting tonnage. The two LPL are a nice touch though.

Dakka Hawk - Like a squishy BJ3? Would consider dropping an AC and adding some pew pew, having just ballistics really restricts this build.

Sniper Hawk - For a better sniper, try the 1K with 2ERLL and 5SPL. Hilarious when lights think, oh yeh we got dis one.. ..then they rack around the corner and do a u-turn as they see your 5SPL lol. For the 1B this seems like a pretty stock build though.

Brawling Hawk - If you are nuts like me, try doing this with 8MPL, heat is a b***h, so you need to be really smart about how you play it, but it 100% works.



Iron Man - Reserved for the trash can. Cannot see this as being anywhere nearly effective as other builds...

and finally, a nice troll build. (Because where would we be if nobody made a troll build for the Phoenix hawk?)

Phoenix Star - I almost spat my coffee out my mouth at work. I would love to see a win from this and/or video evidence of it at work for the lols.

Edited by White Bear 84, 28 June 2016 - 05:58 PM.

[Bluefalcon13]

epikt, on 28 June 2016 - 05:40 PM, said:

So basically you are stomping weaker players. I don't blame you, you can't do much except for playing and slowly grind the PSR. But it supports my point: in this situation you don't need a good mech.

As I said, streaks will restrict your movements and increase your need to expose yourself and face your targets. The Phoenix Hawk being squishy as it is, I found the only way to survive is to be fast, sneaky and never expose yourself more than required. I'm also not a fan to the LPLas+MPLas combo: I see the appeal, and to a certain extent it's personal preference, but ihmo even in the case it's better than standard MLas it does not worth the tonnage (I also don't like how you place MPLas on both arms, it's yet another thing that makes you less flexible).
As for 6 JJ, it's at least twice what's needed on a mech that's not a poptart.

I understand it's working for you and fits your playstyle, but all I'm saying is the weapon loadout has flaws good players will be able to use against you, plus it's badly optimised (even if you don't want to change at least crank it up to an XL300, which is the sweet spot for a good speed/tonnage balance).

I'm not seeing how the streaks restrict my movement. I fire both sets of lasers and by the time they are done, my streaks are locked and launched. I don't wait for lock, but if it is there they are on their way. I am back in cover before they hit. As for the split mplas, the intent is that I lose an arm, it sucks but I am then at roughly 50% firepower. I may lose range, or close in punch, but atleast I then didn't lose both.

Again, it's decent advice you are giving, and maybe it'll help someone who is struggling with the build, but for me, sacrificing the jump capabilities neuters the mech overall.

An example that stands out in recent memory Assault on HPG. My team has taken out 10 of their mechs. Two: lights are left. The few of us left are pretty tore up (it was a fairly even match overall). We start looking for the last two. As I start checking the basement, the notification goes up that they are capping our base. I run out, jump from one of those slightly raised structures near the wall (the little trapezoidal ones that have arcing electricity inside them), to the top of the wall. I run along the top, get to the base cap, and there they are, both looking along the ground entrances. I hop down and proceed to wreck them both (they were pretty tore up too) before my teammates could even get to from the gates to the corner looking into the base recess.

I use my JJs liberally, and tactically. Most people don't expect someone to come down or up from places, and not with the rapid assent the Phoenix Hawk can manage with max JJs. It is a boon, assuming you don't do things like hit a max altitude jump mid brawl (that usually ends bad ).

[PeeWrinkle]

epikt, on 28 June 2016 - 08:11 AM, said:

I don't want to sound like an @&#$, but it probably only works because you're not in a high tier. This mech is slow, with way too many jets, no ferrofibrous upgrade, IS streak are useless weapons dealing few damage and restraining your mobility,... here is a tweak that should work much better.

All I can say is if a player is in the top 10 with what appears to be a subpar build then piloting and gunnery skills must be off the hook (Just checked the final leader board and this dude finished 12th! Which I couldn't do in my wildest dreams). Besides only tier 5 players are really separated from the rest in that they can't play tier 1 players. Also PSR is really just a measure of how many matches you play. The more you play the more likely you are to be a higher PSR. A good example is my PSR of 2, I totally suck at this game, but love to play it. My teams win slightly more than I loose so my PSR steadily climbs. It s not a great system for measuring skill.

Now back to the build discussion. I agree that IS streaks are very week. SSRM2's just down output the damage, but as a secondary weapon they probably are just adding to damage total, with very little heat generation and helping score extra kills as they can crit more easily on mechs that already have taken significant damage.

To be honest I am going to try this build, but tweak it to this, as I also desire more speed. I also moved the LPL so the MPLs would be on the same side making them easier to fire. I may even try 3MPL and an XL340 to see what that's like. Less firepower, but the speed would be sick! Or even something like this, which in my mind is a sniper-brawler. LOL

Edited by PeeWrinkle, 29 June 2016 - 05:11 AM.

[Aerei]

I played a Tier 5 round a little while ago when testing this game's FPS for a friend's computer. Let's just say that there are definitely differences in a strict Tier 5 round. Oh sure, there are bad and mediocre players in tiers 3, 2, and probably 1, but the people in Tier 5 barely....you know, move. Of course those players would do awful against streaks--they're essentially short range LRMs in that situation--and LRMs, while not a great weapon in themselves, absolutely slaughter newbies in this game.

Edited by Aerei, 08 July 2016 - 08:18 AM.

[Mole]

I love my PHX-1K with 6 medium lasers in the arms, 2 MPLs in the CT, and max XL engine and armor. It's hotter than hell but it kills 'mechs dead.

Edited by Mole, 08 July 2016 - 08:32 AM.

[Tordin]

Hmm instead of 3 x AC2 that does sounds fun, Try an AC10 or Ultra AC5 and some medium lasers as backup
Have to agree, the Phoenix Hawk aint exactly built as a tanker. Strike fast and hard with minimal face time and be as annoying as possible. Now, the 1K can function as a medium tanker, kinda. Since it dosent have JJ, you could go a line with a standard enigne and 8 small, small pulse, mediums or medium pulse lasers. Pretty flexible at that.

Again ANY light or medium mechs arent meant to brawl and tank IMO at least. So the PHX arent bad at all. It excels at what it does. Need more buffs to torso and arms though, the only little setback. If you are into the playstyle the PHX offer, then by all means, go for it, adapt and get gud

[MeanMachinE]

The biggest problem with the builds is that they don't have enough armor in hands and legs. You can fix this by dropping some jump jets in some builds..

Here is one build that worked ok for me:
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8603ed4817a07d0
It is basically a blackjack with ECM. The idea is to be close to your assaults, cover them with ECM and fire at the targets they are shooting at. In some maps you can also do some sniping with the jump jets.

[jss78]

I'm astonished by all the "too many jets" comments. IMO when it comes to 40-45-tonner light mediums, there's no such thing as too many jets. If only all other weight classes got this good a return for mounting more than one or two JJ.

Bluefalcon13, on 27 June 2016 - 05:06 AM, said:

My ROC build seemed to do pretty decent in the leader boards. Sitting at 9th unless someone bumps me down.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...b3c10722db0a8ae

I sometimes swap out the LPLas for an erLLas and 2 DHS. Both builds work well, but the erLLas tends to poke a bit better due to more range. I play it as a poker, from far away. If the battle is moving fast I just try to put pressure on the enemies from closer in on the flanks. Basically never commit but stay at the edge of SSRMs, and flank.

This is quite similar to mine, which is my favourite Phoenix Hawk thus far. I basically replace your SSRM's+BAP with SRM2's and up-engine to XL300. I'm getting the most out of my Phoenix Hawks running them as a medium-range skirmisher and poker. The LPL-ML-SRM2 setup is with this in mind. I ran with 13 DHS and without the dual-AMS until hitting elite unlocks, but after that I find the heat-efficiency good enough with 11 DHS. Again, this 'mech is not meant to commit to an extended brawl.