122 replies to this topic

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For a short range or slower mech, Polar Highlands is a challenging map.
Yes, LRMs make a decent enough weapon tere due to the layout of the terrain, but it's also a good map for any long range build. There are so many maps with much more cover that Polar Highlands feels very open and flat by comparison.
This should not be seen as a design flaw but as a design difference and it is nice to have a good variety in the maps.

[JC Daxion]

I'm just gonna say..

Polar has lots of cover if you stay out of the bloody middle...


Domination needs to be tweaked as dropping the point dead center leaves you with little cover, Polar is one of the maps that domination has 4 excellent spawn points for the circle, and NONE of them are in the center..



LRM's have issues.. But they are not a couple of maps.. unless people just don't understand the game mechanics for the most part.. OR they just decide to play the lets camp game, and then get schooled by spotters, and lack of movement.

[El Bandito]

It is as if there is no equipment designed solely to counter incoming missile... oh wait, there is! There should be AMS awareness day every week.

[Pjwned]

Mcchuggernaut, on 26 June 2016 - 04:45 PM, said:

People don't run AMS for one reason: There are very few maps where it is advantageous at all. You think I'm mad about Jenners running LRM5s? A spotter (even worse, a NARCer) working with a boat using massed volleys renders AMS worthless.

AMS is only "worthless" when not enough people bring it, and when somebody says "SEE LOOK I JUST GOT RAINED ON BY 300 LRMS AND AMS DIDN'T DO JACK **** WWWWWWOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!" they are completely missing the point that getting rained on means playing like garbage or you just got massively outplayed.

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The Jenner video was just an example, and you can counter multiple small volleys easily with AMS at least till your AMS ammo runs out. This isn't about the LRM Jenner. It's about bad map balance favoring one weapon type over another. The new Frozen City did it right: you have situations for all types of combat on one map. Polar did it wrong, favoring long-range, LRMS, and ******** on brawlers. It also allowed for situations that can easily result in you being a worthless walking target regardless of how well you play or how you use terrain. For the ten-thousadth time this thread: There isn't any bitching about LRMS. I would be happy with an LRM buff. But if you build a map to unfairly favor a weapon type without allowing people to choose a loadout suited to the map your are going to encounter, you are sometimes going to get **** on by random chance instead of losing because of lack of skill. People don't like that. It takes away from the game and adds a feeling of your skill not actually mattering. It's stupid, when a well-balanced map allows for all builds, when played well, to be worth while.

The thing is that the map is fine and people ***** & moan about it because they get rained on by playing poorly and they don't bother bringing AMS ever.

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Additionally, all these people with their "quit whining and run AMS!": I seriously doubt most of them actually use it (except as a forum argument).

You're right, I don't really use AMS and rarely have, because LRMs are not and have never been so much of a problem for me that I need to use it because I like playing relatively fast (or long range) mechs and I know to not overextend without any cover anywhere nearby.

If I did play particularly slow mechs though I sure as hell would bring AMS.

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I'm not seeing it in-game, so where are all these supposed skilled AMS gods of the battlefield? Sure as hell not in the competitive tiers. Most likely just full of BS.

It's not in competitive tiers because LRMs are so easily negated if you know what you're doing, and as for the people told to bring AMS they apparently don't listen and then ***** about LRMs because they absolutely have to fit in that extra couple tons of laserpuke on their ~50 KPH assault mech.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Pjwned, on 27 June 2016 - 12:58 AM, said:

AMS is only "worthless" when not enough people bring it, and when somebody says "SEE LOOK I JUST GOT RAINED ON BY 300 LRMS AND AMS DIDN'T DO JACK **** WWWWWWOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!" they are completely missing the point that getting rained on means playing like garbage or you just got massively outplayed.



The thing is that the map is fine and people ***** & moan about it because they get rained on by playing poorly and they don't bother bringing AMS ever.



You're right, I don't really use AMS and rarely have, because LRMs are not and have never been so much of a problem for me that I need to use it because I like playing relatively fast (or long range) mechs and I know to not overextend without any cover anywhere nearby.

If I did play particularly slow mechs though I sure as hell would bring AMS.



It's not in competitive tiers because LRMs are so easily negated if you know what you're doing, and as for the people told to bring AMS they apparently don't listen and then ***** about LRMs because they absolutely have to fit in that extra couple tons of laserpuke on their ~50 KPH assault mech.

Well, what do you know? You don't use AMS, as I suspected. You use small, fast mechs that can just avoid LRMs on Polar because of size, speed, maneuverability, and probably ECM. Anyone who has spent time running an LRM boat usually doesn't even bother to fire on that type of mech. So you know absolutely jack shite about anything you are spewing.

Edited by Mcchuggernaut, 27 June 2016 - 06:36 AM.

[Mystere]

Mcchuggernaut, on 27 June 2016 - 06:33 AM, said:

Well, what do you know? You don't use AMS, as I suspected. You use small, fast mechs that can just avoid LRMs on Polar because of size, speed, maneuverability, and probably ECM. Anyone who has spent time running an LRM boat usually doesn't even bother to fire on that type of mech. So you know absolutely jack shite about anything you are spewing.

Sigh! You're still missing the point. The people who don't whine about LRMS either know how to mitigate it or just deal with the consequences of not bringing AMS.

[Novakaine]

Pfft none of that matters when you do this.
Oh and nerf snipers!

[Bishop Steiner]

Mcchuggernaut, on 27 June 2016 - 06:33 AM, said:

Well, what do you know? You don't use AMS, as I suspected. You use small, fast mechs that can just avoid LRMs on Polar because of size, speed, maneuverability, and probably ECM. Anyone who has spent time running an LRM boat usually doesn't even bother to fire on that type of mech. So you know absolutely jack shite about anything you are spewing.

I use 65-80 kph Mediums to Heavies on pretty much every map, including Polar (since ya know, can't change mechs once the map is fixed) don't generally use ECM, Radar Derp or AMS..... and don't seem to have your issue.

So what's my "excuse", bro?

[illudium Q 36]

I used to really loath the Polar map. But I changed my mind. I have a new "favorite" mech in the twin AMS Wolfhound. I run it with 5000 rounds of AMS ammo. I carry five medium lasers as my main armament. I have the added range and damage modules for the AMS. This (together with the quirks of the Wolfhound) gives me a 30% range buff and 20% damage buff.

It's not bad mech. Some games I am as useful as you-know-what's on a bull. But other games I have no end of fun running TOWARD the LRM fire. I try to get as far ahead of the LRMer's target as possible. I can cut down the largest clan missile streams to a virtual zero over a 300 meter diameter AMS range. I get the greatest of glee in standing out of sight while the twin AMS puts up a phalanx of fire stopping boatloads of LRMs. While I still don't vote for Polar, I take an odd schadenfreude satisfaction in "messin' up the Lurmers".

I usually run out all 2.5 tons of AMS ammo very third game or so.

Yes, AMS CAN be fun ......

Edited by illudium Q 36, 27 June 2016 - 11:19 AM.

[wanderer]

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Anyone who has spent time running an LRM boat usually doesn't even bother to fire on that type of mech.

I do all the time. That's usually the guy spotting for the other side, and if I don't make him scoot, my team gets rained on.

[Sader325]

I do find it amusing that my video was used for this discussion.

Did you know it could be far worse than just one oxide though?

[Jables McBarty]

Wow. Lots of stubborn refusal to see the evidence here OP.

You realize that on multiple occasions you have proven yourself wrong?

Mcchuggernaut, on 26 June 2016 - 07:02 AM, said:

Bull shite they do. Maybe in a light mech, which is small and fast enough to get away from a spotter. Look, the fact that LRMs are obviously incredibly effective there and that video of an unstoppable tactic that has no counter on that map because of inadequate high cover just speak for themselves.

A good counter to an LRM oxide would be to send more than one LCT-1V (with a single LL no less!) to kill it.

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You need varied terrain within all maps to promote all weapons and styles of play.

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Polar Highlands allowing one weapon type to dominate because of the poor design of the map. This is because it lacks what all other maps besides Alpine have: usable high cover (And Alpine's spawns got moved to promote a more cover-filled battlefield because people finally realized this was a big problem.). Add Just a bit of tall cover, and people couldn't exploit certain un-beatable strategies the lack of it on Polar currently allows there.

Where is it written that all maps must promote all weapons and styles of play?

Mcchuggernaut, on 26 June 2016 - 07:07 AM, said:

Dude, I have a Warhawk missile boat that runs quad LRM15s. AMS? Don't make me laugh. You will die exactly one volley slower. You can basically just negate AMS by overwhelming it, and that's why you rarely see it.

Mcchuggernaut, on 26 June 2016 - 07:38 AM, said:

If you could choose a mech based on the map you knew you would be playing, this wouldn't be a problem at all. Having to prepare for any and all eventualities takes away incentive to specialize in a role with a certain build. Snipers and short-range builds wouldn't be advisable, and everyone would be running the same, boring Swiss army knife just to make sure you wouldn't be useless half the time.

So...is your problem "poor map design" or is it "I can't choose my weapons after I know which map it works on?

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AMS runs out of ammo.

So do LRMs.

Mcchuggernaut, on 26 June 2016 - 07:47 AM, said:

And this has once again turned into a discussion about LRMS instead of the fact that Polar Highlands is a **** map because it wasn't balanced properly.

Was Omaha beach balanced properly? Sometimes you don't get to choose the field on which you fight.

Mcchuggernaut, on 26 June 2016 - 08:09 AM, said:

If you swap torsos with Clan mechs you also have to take the hardpoints those AMS pods have, and some of them are ****.

Cost/benefit. Maybe those omnipods without AMS aren't as 'meta' as you thought, given their lack of AMS hardpoints.

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I will concede that pretty much all of the IS mechs can mount AMS, and if you want to split hairs and force omnipods, then yes, every mech CAN mount AMS. But then why doesn't everyone use it? Because it's completely inferior to just having cover.

Or maybe because LRMs aren't as OP as you think.

Mcchuggernaut, on 26 June 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

Sure, ignore a glaringly obvious problem with a map because you should be good enough to just compensate all the time?

Pretty much.

Mcchuggernaut, on 26 June 2016 - 04:45 PM, said:

People don't run AMS for one reason: There are very few maps where it is advantageous at all.

Exactly. Because LRMs aren't a big problem. There are two maps where they shine. And there you need to use tactics, skill and teamwork to overcome them.

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You think I'm mad about Jenners running LRM5s? A spotter (even worse, a NARCer) working with a boat using massed volleys renders AMS worthless. The Jenner video was just an example, and you can counter multiple small volleys easily with AMS at least till your AMS ammo runs out. This isn't about the LRM Jenner. It's about bad map balance favoring one weapon type over another. The new Frozen City did it right: you have situations for all types of combat on one map. Polar did it wrong, favoring long-range, LRMS, and ******** on brawlers.

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There isn't any bitching about LRMS. I would be happy with an LRM buff. But if you build a map to unfairly favor a weapon type without allowing people to choose a loadout suited to the map your are going to encounter, you are sometimes going to get **** on by random chance instead of losing because of lack of skill. People don't like that. It takes away from the game and adds a feeling of your skill not actually mattering. It's stupid, when a well-balanced map allows for all builds, when played well, to be worth while.

1. In 90% of matches (18 out of those 20 maps) taking a NARC isn't that big of a buff. Teams are deathballed, hence close to ECM, or there is always cover nearby. You are complaining about the 10% of matches where the NARC really pays off--assuming that the NARCer has a boat to make full use of the beacon. Which, as a light pilot who often runs NARCers, is not always the case.

2. Here's how to win in a brawler on PH: Group up with other brawlers. Get under ECM. Have your long-range direct-fire mechs lay down suppressing fire (chances are they are already doing this). Move forward in a trench. Surprise the enemy.

Mcchuggernaut, on 27 June 2016 - 06:33 AM, said:

Well, what do you know? You don't use AMS, as I suspected. You use small, fast mechs that can just avoid LRMs on Polar because of size, speed, maneuverability, and probably ECM. Anyone who has spent time running an LRM boat usually doesn't even bother to fire on that type of mech. So you know absolutely jack shite about anything you are spewing.

Exactly. Yet another excellent counterargument that you have presented.

[Bishop Steiner]

Jables McBarty, on 27 June 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:

Wow. Lots of stubborn refusal to see the evidence here OP.

You realize that on multiple occasions you have proven yourself wrong?



A good counter to an LRM oxide would be to send more than one LCT-1V (with a single LL no less!) to kill it.



Where is it written that all maps must promote all weapons and styles of play?






So...is your problem "poor map design" or is it "I can't choose my weapons after I know which map it works on?


So do LRMs.


Was Omaha beach balanced properly? Sometimes you don't get to choose the field on which you fight.


Cost/benefit. Maybe those omnipods without AMS aren't as 'meta' as you thought, given their lack of AMS hardpoints.


Or maybe because LRMs aren't as OP as you think.


Pretty much.


Exactly. Because LRMs aren't a big problem. There are two maps where they shine. And there you need to use tactics, skill and teamwork to overcome them.




1. In 90% of matches (18 out of those 20 maps) taking a NARC isn't that big of a buff. Teams are deathballed, hence close to ECM, or there is always cover nearby. You are complaining about the 10% of matches where the NARC really pays off--assuming that the NARCer has a boat to make full use of the beacon. Which, as a light pilot who often runs NARCers, is not always the case.

2. Here's how to win in a brawler on PH: Group up with other brawlers. Get under ECM. Have your long-range direct-fire mechs lay down suppressing fire (chances are they are already doing this). Move forward in a trench. Surprise the enemy.


Exactly. Yet another excellent counterargument that you have presented.

Some folks just want to be able to run their slow DWF without bothering with cover or concealment, then get upset when it doesn't work, I guess. (might be a totally wrong generalization, but if so it's in good company with the pages of them the OP has posted)

Had one of those guys in my old unit. Stand in the open in his slow assault then cuss all those cheap LRM cowards and rage quit, night after night... because they refused to play the game the way HE wanted it to be played.

[Pjwned]

Mcchuggernaut, on 27 June 2016 - 06:33 AM, said:

Well, what do you know? You don't use AMS, as I suspected. You use small, fast mechs that can just avoid LRMs on Polar because of size, speed, maneuverability, and probably ECM. Anyone who has spent time running an LRM boat usually doesn't even bother to fire on that type of mech. So you know absolutely jack shite about anything you are spewing.

Maybe you should start whining at teammates in lights to come babysit you with their AMS and/or ECM so that you can do whatever you want since the world revolves around you obviously. That might be more effective than crying BOOHOO LRMs TOUCHED ME IN A BAD PLACE.

Keep proving my point that people who ***** and moan about LRMs do not even try to mitigate it with AMS and are part of the problem.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Pjwned, on 27 June 2016 - 12:50 PM, said:

Maybe you should start whining at teammates in lights to come babysit you with their AMS and/or ECM so that you can do whatever you want since the world revolves around you obviously. That might be more effective than crying BOOHOO LRMs TOUCHED ME IN A BAD PLACE.

Keep proving my point that people who ***** and moan about LRMs do not even try to mitigate it with AMS and are part of the problem.

Dude, your a ******* cretinous idiot. And I think at this point your probably beating off to yourself in your parent's basement. I have better things to do than feed the trolls, as obviously wrong and inflated as they may be.

A pleasant worthless existence to you.

Kisses,

Mcchuggernaut.

[Pjwned]

Mcchuggernaut, on 27 June 2016 - 01:09 PM, said:

Dude, your a ******* cretinous idiot. And I think at this point your probably beating off to yourself in your parent's basement. I have better things to do than feed the trolls, as obviously wrong and inflated as they may be.

A pleasant worthless existence to you.

Kisses,

Mcchuggernaut.

Amazing arguments.

Keep being part of the problem, keep being in denial, keep getting told into oblivion when you ***** & moan about LRMs, and most of all keep being mad 'cuz bad.

[Jables McBarty]

Mcchuggernaut, on 27 June 2016 - 01:09 PM, said:

Dude, your a ******* cretinous idiot. And I think at this point your probably beating off to yourself in your parent's basement. I have better things to do than feed the trolls, as obviously wrong and inflated as they may be.

A pleasant worthless existence to you.

Kisses,

Mcchuggernaut.

Real arguments not working for you bro?

[Mcchuggernaut]

Pjwned, on 27 June 2016 - 01:16 PM, said:

Amazing arguments.

Keep being part of the problem, keep being in denial, keep getting told into oblivion when you ***** & moan about LRMs, and most of all keep being mad 'cuz bad.

Haha, just a final parting shot here: Mad 'cuz bad. That must be your problem, tier 3 potato. You can't even get a glorified XP bar higher than that, and I quit playing for 6 months just after the tier system came out. Your STILL stuck barely above the lowest rung of the ladder while I barely played and am near the top. All that butthurt must be why you immediately started typing insults in all caps when you first entered the thread instead of presenting a reasoned argument. Make no mistake, I may think a map is imbalanced, but that doesn't prevent me from nearly always being the top scorer in most matches. I would crush you. And I bet it bothers the shite out of your salty little heart. I am normally very civil, but I can make an exception for someone so incredibly rude and belligerent because that is all such people understand.

Good day, sir.

Edited by Mcchuggernaut, 27 June 2016 - 01:38 PM.

[Jables McBarty]

Mcchuggernaut, on 27 June 2016 - 01:38 PM, said:

Haha, just a final parting shot here: Mad 'cuz bad. That must be your problem, tier 3 potato. You can't even get a glorified XP bar higher than that, and I quit playing for 6 months just after the tier system came out. Your STILL stuck barely above the lowest rung of the ladder while I barely played and am near the top. All that butthurt must be why you immediately started typing insults in all caps when you first entered the thread instead of presenting a reasoned argument. Make no mistake, I may think a map is imbalanced, but that doesn't prevent me from nearly always being the top scorer in most matches. I would crush you. And I bet it bothers the shite out of your salty little heart. I am normally very civil, but I can make an exception for someone so incredibly rude and belligerent because that is all such people understand.

Good day, sir.

Uh oh. Here come the epeen arguments.

TIER SHAME

TIER SHAME

TIER SHAME

All Tier 3s and under are banned from teh forums!




I did not speak up when the Tier 3s were sent to the mines, for I was not a Tier 3....

[Mystere]

Mcchuggernaut, on 27 June 2016 - 01:38 PM, said:

Haha, just a final parting shot here: Mad 'cuz bad. That must be your problem, tier 3 potato. You can't even get a glorified XP bar higher than that, and I quit playing for 6 months just after the tier system came out. Your STILL stuck barely above the lowest rung of the ladder while I barely played and am near the top. All that butthurt must be why you immediately started typing insults in all caps when you first entered the thread instead of presenting a reasoned argument. Make no mistake, I may think a map is imbalanced, but that doesn't prevent me from nearly always being the top scorer in most matches. I would crush you. And I bet it bothers the shite out of your salty little heart. I am normally very civil, but I can make an exception for someone so incredibly rude and belligerent because that is all such people understand.

Good day, sir.

Whoa??!!! Did someone just pull out the tier card?