122 replies to this topic

[Mcchuggernaut]

I was looking at a different thread about LRM spread yesterday, and decided to make an answer I was going to give to a comment a thread of it's own, because it explains why we get things like the dumb spread mechanic that makes LRM20s bad weapons in the first place. Also, why weapon nerfs and buffs sometimes have more to do with atrocious map design than the weapons themselves being sub-par or over-powered:

Belacose, on 25 June 2016 - 06:05 AM, said:

On certain maps like Polar Highlands i get tired of repeatedly shutting my mech down and back on.

Polar Highlands is broken, it isn't the fault of LRMs. It's like PGI doesn't even play their own damn game. Why the hell they would make a map with basically no cover high enough to block incoming LRMS just blows my mind and frustrates me to no end. The hard counter for LRMs, even if you are NARCed, is simply to put tall cover between you and the enemy missile boat, and they are rendered completely useless. You get NARCed on Polar Highlands, and you are a dead man walking. No discussion. You get targeted by a light missile spotter there: again, you are just dead. No counter possible. Get targeted by a light LRM boat like an Oxide on Polar? Yet again, you are dead and can do nothing at all about it. And yet, they could have completely fixed it simply by making the trenches just high enough to cover you from LRM fire in certain places. Put a few big chunks of rock and ice scattered about the battlefield, even better. LRMs would still be effective (In addition to doing damage, they are great area-denial and suppression weapons.) and useful, but you couldn't just sit there and hold down the fire button all match and win if your team happens to have a couple dedicated LRM boats and a spotter or two.

But, this is PGI, and clearly they have no idea how to balance a map. The ones they make that ARE balanced seem almost like complete accidents. However, even a mentally deficient monkey should be able to tell why maps that have a good scattering of tall cover and also long-range elements are the maps everyone likes the best: Because they give all build types a viable role to play without giving an unfair advantage or disadvantage to anyone. For example: Canyon Network. It offers opportunities to snipe, use LRMs, skirmish, and enough cover for short-ranged brawlers to close distance without getting ripped to pieces.The terrain is balanced evenly across the whole map. People like this, and vote for it because they know it's a fair match for everyone no matter what builds they bring. I also enjoy the new Frozen City remake. It has a great mixture of cover and open spaces. Make the wrong move and get caught in the open and you can get shredded by LRMs, but it's generally your fault for making a bad move and leaving cover at a bad time, not the fault of poor map design.

Then there's clear examples of shite maps that rarely get voted for: Alpine Peaks and Terribad Therma. People don't really like Alpine unless they have LRMs or a sniper setup because it clearly favors those builds. Even worse, before the new spawn positions, one team would start with high ground and partial cover while the other poor saps had to advance with no cover in the wide-open up a slope on an entrenched enemy who had the high ground. Anyone who carried short-range weapons on that map was just dead weight for their team most of the match. Terra Therma wouldn't be all that bad terrain-wise, it's just so damn hot that people running energy-heavy builds are ham-stringed from the start simply because cooler ballistic, Gauss, and LRM builds can keep pouring on the attacks while energy-based mechs sit there melting down in their own slag trying to fire back.

End of story and partial rant: You can't balance weapons properly until your maps are balanced properly, and since PGI does this arse-backwards you get angry players and stupid weapon mechanics like ridiculous LRM spread.

Edit: Since people keep missing the damn point and keep posting stupid shite about "Just hide in the trenches, blah, blah..." and disregarding the fact that tall cover is the ONLY counter for certain situations, and that having none on Polar is it's problem, I'll just leave this right here. The chaos starts about 2 minutes in:



Counter THIS guy on your flank on Polar in a pug match. Really, I would like to see you try.

Edited by Mcchuggernaut, 26 June 2016 - 05:53 AM.

[Chados]

Counterpoint for the reader: A working LRM counter on Polar is to drop into a ditch, assuming you're using the Radar Deprivation module. If you break line of sight to the spotter and keep moving, the LRM salvo aimed at you will miss.

I pack LRMs and enjoy using them (Catapult pilot back from the grave with the rescale!). But they have more potential counters than any other weapon system and require dedicated teamwork. That's a hit or miss proposition in the PUG queues.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Chados, on 26 June 2016 - 03:47 AM, said:

Counterpoint for the reader: A working LRM counter on Polar is to drop into a ditch, assuming you're using the Radar Deprivation module.

There are spots where the map is just too open for this to work, and a spotter can just keep targeting you even if you hide in a ditch and move. Especially for the bigger mechs. Also, NARC still = certain death.

[Chados]

I don't wholly agree, but you make valid points.

[Sjorpha]

The counter to lrms is not hiding, at least it's not a good counter since once you're hiding the enemy has effectively removed you from play until you stop hiding, it's much better to ball up and push aggressively towards the lrm boats. You'll syeamroll the enemy since they wasted tonnage on lrms.

As soon as there is coordinated aggression lrms are bad even on polar.

[Egg Fu]

Sjorpha, on 26 June 2016 - 04:11 AM, said:

it's much better to ball up and push aggressively towards the lrm boats.

The charge of the light brigade!

Sjorpha, on 26 June 2016 - 04:11 AM, said:

As soon as there is coordinated aggression lrms are bad even on polar.

In pug quick drops that would most often be moot.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Sjorpha, on 26 June 2016 - 04:11 AM, said:

The counter to lrms is not hiding, at least it's not a good counter since once you're hiding the enemy has effectively removed you from play until you stop hiding, it's much better to ball up and push aggressively towards the lrm boats. You'll syeamroll the enemy since they wasted tonnage on lrms.

As soon as there is coordinated aggression lrms are bad even on polar.

First, if you are peeking out, smacking people with an alpha, then ducking back in cover before you get lurmed, that isn't hiding. It's smart trading, and I tear people to pieces doing it all the time.

If you can crash into the enemy in a coordinated death-ball and you have enough mechs designed for sustained DPS, that can be a good strategy. Energy-weapon-based mechs aren't good at this, and you can end up having your push stall and turn into a rout as everyone starts to overheat. I have seen coordinated pushes fail plenty of times because of this. One of my favorite mechs is a Battlemaster 2C with 5xLPLs, absolutely devastating during the trading phase of a match, but if I get rushed by brawlers without proper team support it's game over. And then, there's the difficulty of getting everyone to rush the enemy in the uncoordinated pug world of potato-level pilots. The final problem is that while you are trying to bash your way through the whole enemy team to get to those missile boats, they will be sitting in the rear lighting your team up like all flaming hell. I hear this argument all the time "Oh, just rush a team with LRM boats, so easy, lurms are wastes of tonnage, etc.", but that isn't true at all. Yes, it sometimes works. Sometimes it gets your team stomped into the dirt.

Edited by Mcchuggernaut, 26 June 2016 - 04:43 AM.

[Cyndryn]

Like to remind people that walking up to a friendly ECM mech is a counter to NARC.

Edited by Eradhain, 26 June 2016 - 05:03 AM.

[Red Shrike]

Chados, on 26 June 2016 - 03:47 AM, said:

Counterpoint for the reader: A working LRM counter on Polar is to drop into a ditch, assuming you're using the Radar Deprivation module. If you break line of sight to the spotter and keep moving, the LRM salvo aimed at you will miss.

This. Even when I'm not using the module, I rarely get hit by LRMs because I stick to the trenches, and when I do get hit, it's my own fault.

Also, we're piloting meters tall 'mechs. You really expect everything you find to be big enough to hide a 'mech behind? Be glad you're not fighting on an agricultural world. Good luck hiding a 'mech between the corn stalks.

Edited by Red Shrike, 26 June 2016 - 05:07 AM.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Eradhain, on 26 June 2016 - 04:59 AM, said:

Like to remind people that walking up to a friendly ECM mech is a counter to NARC...

Yes, but what if your ECM lights are off scouting and you don't have someone like a handy Atlas D-DC right nearby? Whether people near you have ECM you can get to and use is largely out of your control. Sometimes nobody has ECM, sometimes you have a lot and the enemy's LRM mechs aren't much use because of it. But these are random factors you can't count on being in your favor. Also, I believe being spotted with TAG cuts through ECM coverage? You still have that problem. You may have nullified NARC, but if you can't hide from the Narc spotter that probably has you TAGed as well, kiss your arse goodbye.

[Malachy Karrde]

Chados, on 26 June 2016 - 03:47 AM, said:

Counterpoint for the reader: A working LRM counter on Polar is to drop into a ditch, assuming you're using the Radar Deprivation module. If you break line of sight to the spotter and keep moving, the LRM salvo aimed at you will miss.

I pack LRMs and enjoy using them (Catapult pilot back from the grave with the rescale!). But they have more potential counters than any other weapon system and require dedicated teamwork. That's a hit or miss proposition in the PUG queues.

this works with any mech, even a dire wolf. There is plenty of cover on polar. It's not nearly as flat as it looks.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Red Shrike, on 26 June 2016 - 05:06 AM, said:

This. Even when I'm not using the module, I rarely get hit by LRMs because I stick to the trenches, and when I do get hit, it's my own fault.

Also, we're piloting meters tall 'mechs. You really expect everything you find to be big enough to hide a 'mech behind? Be glad you're not fighting on an agricultural world. Good luck hiding a 'mech between the corn stalks.

Until you can choose your mech after you know what map you will be playing on, this is completely absurd. I doubt anyone with a reasonably functional brain who knew the terrain they would be fighting on would choose a short-ranged weapon for an engagement with no cover. You would of course either choose not to engage there if you had no long-range weapons and could avoid doing so, or you would pack long-ranged weapons. But this isn't real life, and we are at the mercy of game mechanics we cannot change.

I also rarely get hit with LRMs if not for one of the three specific examples I put in the main post. You can't just counter with the standard "radar derp and duck" on Polar because there is no cover to actually block missiles from hitting you in these 3 situations. Your...missing the whole point.

[Mechteric]

Personally I would love to see the indirect locking ability of LRMs changed. Essentially I think you should only be able to get a non LOS lock on a target if and only if that target is TAG'd, NARC'd, or under UAV. I think that would go a long way to balancing LRMs, then perhaps they can look at buffing it to not make LRM5's the preferred option.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Malachy Karrde, on 26 June 2016 - 05:12 AM, said:

this works with any mech, even a dire wolf. There is plenty of cover on polar. It's not nearly as flat as it looks.

Again, missing the point. NARC and being spotted by lights has no effective counter on polar because there you cannot use terrain to block missiles, since there is almost no cover tall enough on Polar. I take it from this post you probably haven't been NARCed in that Dire yet on Polar or had a light spotter sitting behind you.

I guess I'm going to have to pull this out to help explain the problem:



Yeah. Counter that with anything but high terrain. I dare you. I suppose you could nerf the Oxide, or maybe...you could just build effing balanced maps, PGI!

Edited by Mcchuggernaut, 26 June 2016 - 05:42 AM.

[ExoForce]

Advanced target decoy...

[Cyndryn]

I'm not saying a friendly ECM is a guaranteed 100% defense against NARC, there are always variables and conditions in every match that you can't anticipate. But, my point was, that friendly ECMers are one tool in your toolbox that you can use when you've been NARC'd.

[Red Shrike]

Mcchuggernaut, on 26 June 2016 - 05:22 AM, said:

I also rarely get hit with LRMs if not for one of the three specific examples I put in the main post. You can't just counter with the standard "radar derp and duck" on Polar because there is no cover to actually block missiles from hitting you in these 3 situations. Your...missing the whole point.

I don't duck to block missiles, I duck to lose or avoid the lock. And if I get NARC'd I commend the light pilot and try to survive the incoming barrage, not go to the forums to make a new thread about it.

You say Canyon network is a map that caters to many ranges. Sure, it does, but only under certain circumstances. When I play Canyon, the first 5 minutes are always sniping and playing peek-a-boo with enemy mechs. The only time when brawls happen is when someone manages to flank or when one team has the upper hand and starts steamrolling the other, at which point the brawl is pointless as you'll either get a very short brawl or die very quickly. I have yet to see 200-300m brawls on Canyon between intact mechs.

And as for the weapons, that's why I like the stock loadouts. They got a little bit of everything.

I got nothing against cover, it's just that 1. Not every terrain feature should be perfectly mech sized and 2. people will most likely start playing peek-a-boo behind that cover instead of using it as a temporary place to hide from LRMs.

Edited by Red Shrike, 26 June 2016 - 05:47 AM.

[Mcchuggernaut]

Red Shrike, on 26 June 2016 - 05:46 AM, said:

I have yet to see 200-300m brawls on Canyon between intact mechs.

I'm kind-of amazed that you even said this. At least half the matches I play on Canyon Network involve brawling around the tall central rock formation while ranged mechs snipe from the rear and sides...

[Mystere]

CapperDeluxe, on 26 June 2016 - 05:25 AM, said:

Personally I would love to see the indirect locking ability of LRMs changed. Essentially I think you should only be able to get a non LOS lock on a target if and only if that target is TAG'd, NARC'd, or under UAV. I think that would go a long way to balancing LRMs, then perhaps they can look at buffing it to not make LRM5's the preferred option.

Your suggestion is so one-sided it would not "balance" LRMs, it would destroy them even more.

[Malachy Karrde]

Mcchuggernaut, on 26 June 2016 - 05:33 AM, said:

Again, missing the point. NARC and being spotted by lights has no effective counter on polar because there you cannot use terrain to block missiles, since there is almost no cover tall enough on Polar. I take it from this post you probably haven't been NARCed in that Dire yet on Polar or had a light spotter sitting behind you.

I guess I'm going to have to pull this out to help explain the problem:



Yeah. Counter that with anything but high terrain. I dare you. I suppose you could nerf the Oxide, or maybe...you could just build effing balanced maps, PGI!

You don't need high terrain to block lrms. Any of the 100 valleys or so work if you hug the walls and remove line of sight. Also there are a bunch of buildings that work too. I think it's more of a personal problem for you than a map problem my friend. I don't love polar highlands, but it's easy to avoid being lrmed to death if you keep situational awareness.