52 replies to this topic

[Hit the Deck]

It seems that my dual Gauss 'Mechs always worked better than my dual (ER)PPCs 'Mechs. Of course I used those (ER)PPCs on 'Mechs with PPC speed quirks like the WHM-6R to speed up those lightning bolts. Let's take the WHM-6R as an example because it can do both (Gauss and PPC).

On that 'Mech, PPC has 1650m/s projectile speed and -10% to heat. Taking PPCs also has an advantage that you can bring more things because of the comparatively low weight of the weapon. This PPC WHM-6R has an "alpha" of 30 damage which is identical to a dual Gauss but has far bigger "DPS". The PPC and UAC/5 projectiles fly at 1650 and 1350m/s, respectively.

On the other hand, this dual Gauss WHM-6R worked better for me. Not sure how much the "backup" 5x MLs contributed to the overall damage, perhaps somewhat significant thanks to GRs' negligible heat. I think the speed and minuscule heat make this such a good weapon.

Buff (ER)PPC's speed again?

Edited by Hit the Deck, 26 June 2016 - 03:21 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

I think all of the PPCs should get a 50% base speed velocity increase (and the velocity quirks should be removed).

PPCs shouldn't have to be quirked to be even remotely usable.

[Alistair Winter]

Juodas Varnas, on 26 June 2016 - 03:24 AM, said:

I think all of the PPCs should get a 50% base speed velocity increase (and the velocity quirks should be removed).

PPCs shouldn't have to be quirked to be even remotely usable.

Agreed. Maybe not straight to 50%, but they should start buffing projectile speed. Maybe bringing it up to a ~50% increase over two months, to see how the game changes.

That being said, I think one of the biggest issues with PPCs is the heat. I'm worried that PPCs will only ever be useful together with ballistics on most mechs. PPCs + lasers is just way too hot. You barely ever see any Black Knights, Blackjacks or Riflemen with both PPCs and lasers. (And yes, I know it can be effective. I do run it myself. But it's not quite as effective as it needs to be)

[Hit the Deck]

Wait, maybe this is a false comparison. What should (ER)PPCs be compared to?

[Wrathful Scythe]

Juodas Varnas, on 26 June 2016 - 03:24 AM, said:

I think all of the PPCs should get a 50% base speed velocity increase (and the velocity quirks should be removed).

PPCs shouldn't have to be quirked to be even remotely usable.

I would like to see a test on the PTS were the ERPPC would be a hitscan weapon. The normal PPC gets a higher velocity while the ERPPC becomes hitscan. It would make the ERPPC a valuable choice because you pay the price of more heat for precise damage.

[Juodas Varnas]

Alistair Winter, on 26 June 2016 - 03:29 AM, said:

Agreed. Maybe not straight to 50%, but they should start buffing projectile speed. Maybe bringing it up to a ~50% increase over two months, to see how the game changes.

I don't know, i like 50%.
Pretty much every mech with which i feel comfortable using PPCs have 50% velocity quirks on them (Vindicators and Warhammer-6R). But this is talking about the Standard PPCs and not ERPPCs (which i do not use, because of how insanely HOT they are).

I also think we should re-work the minimum range on PPCs. The current solution is not only really stupid, but also incredibly boring. If we want to make it more interesting, i've been a fan of the idea of having them without the "field inhibitors", basically having them deal full damage at all ranges, however when used at minimum range, they'd deal minor "feedback" damage back to the mech itself.
Basically dealing small amounts of internal damage in the components with PPCs.

Wrathful Scythe, on 26 June 2016 - 03:42 AM, said:

I would like to see a test on the PTS were the ERPPC would be a hitscan weapon. The normal PPC gets a higher velocity while the ERPPC becomes hitscan. It would make the ERPPC a valuable choice because you pay the price of more heat for precise damage.

Could be an interesting solution, would definitely like to test it out. Hmmm... Maybe it could also be away of making AC2s more useful too? Making them hitscan that is.
Nonetheless, it'd be worth a PTS to see how it'd work out.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 26 June 2016 - 03:50 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

Hit the Deck, on 26 June 2016 - 03:33 AM, said:

Wait, maybe this is a false comparison. What should (ER)PPCs be compared to?

Now I remember why I had this two weapons compared with each other - because the fluff always talk about how deadly they are! PGI kind of got feel right with the GRs but not with the (ER)PPCs. To be fair, (ER)PPCs could be scary near the end of the match when everybody is already beat up.

[Dahrsis]

Wrathful Scythe, on 26 June 2016 - 03:42 AM, said:

I would like to see a test on the PTS were the ERPPC would be a hitscan weapon. The normal PPC gets a higher velocity while the ERPPC becomes hitscan. It would make the ERPPC a valuable choice because you pay the price of more heat for precise damage.

Hitscan is really really dangerous in MWO. I would strongly advise against this. Close up it won´t matter much, but with an ERPPC boat you basically dominate range combat.

I would like to see a 30% increase in speed for both weapons and the reduction of the existing quirks by the same amount. So historical PPC Mechs Warhammer, Marauder, e.t.c.) still have that edge. From that point on kust look how it works out.
Incremental buffs are a better approach here.

[D V Devnull]

People, it's not the velocity that needs work. It's the PPC/ERPPC Heat Levels that need more changing. And slightly better quirks regarding PPC/ERPPC Heat Generation as well. I almost had a nice Mauler MAL-1P build at one point which would have been a good answer to the Quad-ERPPC WarHawk. Unfortunately, it suffered massively from not having enough quirking for that exotic weapon loadout. If PGI corrected that, I'm sure we would be having some more interesting battles.

~D. V. "But hey, that's just my opinion regarding PPC/ERPPC Heat Generation..." Devnull

[cazidin]

D V Devnull, on 26 June 2016 - 06:39 AM, said:

People, it's not the velocity that needs work. It's the PPC/ERPPC Heat Levels that need more changing. And slightly better quirks regarding PPC/ERPPC Heat Generation as well. I almost had a nice Mauler MAL-1P build at one point which would have been a good answer to the Quad-ERPPC WarHawk. Unfortunately, it suffered massively from not having enough quirking for that exotic weapon loadout. If PGI corrected that, I'm sure we would be having some more interesting battles.

~D. V. "But hey, that's just my opinion regarding PPC/ERPPC Heat Generation..." Devnull

When EVERY PPC needs 30-50% velocity quirk to be considered "better than the LPL so OK i'll take it." then yes, VELOCITY IS WHAT NEEDS WORK!

[Queen of England]

I think +50% velocity (combined with removal of PPC velocity quirks) and another -0.5 heat would probably get PPCs to a good place. I also think they should consider going back to scaling damage reduction inside minimum range rather than the cutoff.

[QuantumButler]

why would a 7 ton weapon with infinite ammo be as effective as a 16 ton weapon that needs ammo?

[D V Devnull]

cazidin, on 26 June 2016 - 06:41 AM, said:

When EVERY PPC needs 30-50% velocity quirk to be considered "better than the LPL so OK i'll take it." then yes, VELOCITY IS WHAT NEEDS WORK!

I guess you've had a rather different experience with them than I have. Personally, I think people (including myself) just need to learn to aim better with PPCs/ERPPCs. What really ruins the PPC/ERPPC weapons, in my experience, is how fast Heat builds up and renders the weapons useless for a deadly while. Even with 18 (including engine) DHS, a Quad ERPPC config can only fire off 8 chain-fire single PPC/ERPPC shots, less if pair-fired or more, and then the Mech is too hot for at least 45 seconds, during which you can be rather easily killed. Not a fun experience, I think? That's why I think the Heat Generation needs to be decreased instead.

~D. V. "PPC/ERPPC is a 'Your Mileage May Vary' weapon, I think?" Devnull

[Hit the Deck]

QuantumButler, on 26 June 2016 - 07:06 AM, said:

why would a 7 ton weapon with infinite ammo be as effective as a 16 ton weapon that needs ammo?

To be fair, you could make a quad PPC build on that WHR-6R. Would be hot and no fighting chance whatsoever at close range but I'd have to try if it's any better.

[wanderer]

When you peg your 7-ton energy weaponry to the large pulse laser in terms of performance, guns like the PPC (and definitely ERPPC) fall behind rapidly. The PPC should be closer to 8-8.5 heat, the ERPPC 12.

[QuantumButler]

wanderer, on 26 June 2016 - 07:22 AM, said:

When you peg your 7-ton energy weaponry to the large pulse laser in terms of performance, guns like the PPC (and definitely ERPPC) fall behind rapidly. The PPC should be closer to 8-8.5 heat, the ERPPC 12.

I agree, but trying to compare it to the no heat Gauss Rifle is kind of silly.

Not saying PPCs are where they should be atm, just that the GR has always been one of the best weapons in MWO, even after all the targeted nerfs it has taken over the years.

PPCs are pretty useable on say, the awesome right now, but if it takes a good 25-30% reduction in heat and 30%+ increase to projectile velocity to make a weapon system worth using, maybe the weapon system itself just needs to be changed to that baseline and the mega quirks targeting it specifically can then go away.

So you know, all machines can use ppcs somewhat effectively instead of only a select few as deemed by the quirk gods.

Edited by QuantumButler, 26 June 2016 - 07:35 AM.

[oldradagast]

Juodas Varnas, on 26 June 2016 - 03:24 AM, said:

I think all of the PPCs should get a 50% base speed velocity increase (and the velocity quirks should be removed).

PPCs shouldn't have to be quirked to be even remotely usable.

Agreed.

I'm generally not a fan of velocity buffs anyway since they seem silly and result in weapon aiming noticeably differently on different mechs. Also, if a weapon is only useful on mechs that are heavily quirked for it, than the problem is the base weapon stats. I don't agree with this notion that PPC's should "only be useful on certain chassis." They are already a high-head, high tonnage energy weapon that requires some skill to use because of the all or nothing damage. Leaving them nerfed by default and only useful on certain mechs is just not needed.

[cazidin]

D V Devnull, on 26 June 2016 - 07:14 AM, said:

I guess you've had a rather different experience with them than I have. Personally, I think people (including myself) just need to learn to aim better with PPCs/ERPPCs. What really ruins the PPC/ERPPC weapons, in my experience, is how fast Heat builds up and renders the weapons useless for a deadly while. Even with 18 (including engine) DHS, a Quad ERPPC config can only fire off 8 chain-fire single PPC/ERPPC shots, less if pair-fired or more, and then the Mech is too hot for at least 45 seconds, during which you can be rather easily killed. Not a fun experience, I think? That's why I think the Heat Generation needs to be decreased instead.

~D. V. "PPC/ERPPC is a 'Your Mileage May Vary' weapon, I think?" Devnull

Actually, I've performed some rather impressive skill shots with PPCs. I wasn't sure how much I'd like them but, at least on certain chassis, they're a lot of fun. I still think they travel too slowly and you only really see them on mechs with a high velocity quirk. That I think is a design flaw.

You're right. They're hot, and I'm OK with that. 9 heat for PPCs, 14 for ER PPCs and we're good. The heat is the trade off for PPFLD. That's why they need velocity to be taken over LPL, which have the advantage of similar damage, run cooler AND are hit scan but only lose range. 1,800 M/S may be too much. 1,500 or 1,600 would be great though.

And, hey, I'm sorry if the initial response was rude - I didn't intend for that. The caps were intended for emphasis and to draw focus.

[IdolElite]

While 2 guass vs 2 er ppcs the guass are clearly going to win, the weight itself is the price you pay, plus ammo limitations.

Now for PPCs I do think they need a blanket projectile speed increase of around 40 percent, then drop the speed quirks, they just make it hard to aim when you change mechs lol.

The heat, especially on ERPPCs could use a slight reduction, they run so hot it's difficult to pick them over large pulses unless you really want them.

[Moldur]

The closest you can get, I believe, is by putting a TComp-7 onto the Summoner with a Prime variant right arm. This gives something like 30%+30% PPC speed, and C-erPPCs are already faster than IS

Something like that, I guess, but I am not a pop-tart aficionado.

SMN-PRIME