151 replies to this topic

[Funkin Disher]

Faster flight speed
Flatter flight path
LRM 10 spread for all launchers
1 ton ammo = 200 damage

Then we can tweak TAG, NARC, ART IV, BAP and modules around the base stats, rather than applying them like bandaids

[PhoenixFire55]

So, I've bought me some Highlanders-IIC after the rescale ... just because, and I've decided to master one of them using the LRM cruiser build ... just because. That's given me a chance to actually try LRMs for the first time in like ... 1.5 years.

T1 here, so won't give you any potato tier 2000 damage stories, but here is the thing ...

Averaging ~700 damage and 2-3 kills per match ez, with a lot of 1000-1200 dmg ones (of course most of it is useless because LRM), and of course some ~300 dmg ones when my team gets rolled too fast as well.

No issues whatsoever with locks, I just go and lock myself. No issues whatsoever with enemies diving for cover, because I'm 400-450m away - they don't have enough time. No issues with lights/ECM lights because BAP and LBX (yeah, I can actually aim, that helps too) and because I'm mostly among my pushing heavies and assaults anyway.

Frankly ... I don't do anything differently compared to what I'd do in ballistic spam / laservomit build and surprise surprise! ... Results are mostly similar. Only thing that differs as that I don't need to aim.

This mech is as slow as f**k tho, so I need to always keep moving forward, but thats fairly easy because the average speed of most heavies and assaults pushing is about same as my top speed. I don't think that there's ever been a situation when I "was left behind by my stupid nascaring team".

I imagine playing LRMs in a faster mech that can actually activly flank the enemy is even easier.

So ... yeah, LRMs are so wewy wewy broken. Sadly, you can't fix stupid.

[Lykaon]

Chuck Jager, on 26 June 2016 - 10:31 AM, said:

My opinion, if somebody can (I mean has the option) to do damage while never exposing their mech, they deserve less than what they are getting now.

I have seen very good lrm boats who fight with the pack, but the option is still there. Players who consistently use this option, do not help in wins as much as they contribute to losses. I do not wanna see anything that enables folks who could not make scorekeeper on a sports team.

At some point, folks need to learn how to be an aggressive force on their team instead of "wow look at my high damage that I got while others did the hard work".

Part of the reason for the "classic" LURMer to sit behind a chunk of cover and spam LRMs at any target provided by someone else is because the LRM is such a craptastical weapon.

Why would you poke out and face an enemy with direct fire weapons? Let's say we have a Catapult with 2x ALRM15s (8 ton weapons) Vs a Jagermech with a pair of AC5s (also 8 ton weapons)

They are about 600m apart and start firing.

Catapult needs a lock before firing.Takes 4 AC5 hits while locking,Then the catapult launches it's 30 LRMs. Takes 4 more Ac5 hits. The LRMs then hit the Jager so let's say 30 tubes with artemis would likely miss about 5 missiles The Jager puts 2 more shots on the Catapult before slipping into cover. So this exchange is ...

50 pinpoint damage to the catapult and 25 spread damage on the Jagermech. Pretty much the dumbest thing the Catapult could do is to be visable to anything with real guns on it.

And how much less than what they get now? Let's recap how much LRMs stink.

Slowest projectile speed in the game by a lot.

Countered by ECM

Countered by Radar derper modules available to anyone

Mitigated by AMS

Spreads damage and has a high number of misses even on a "hit" due to the spread pattern of the larger launchers.

Gives a warning to the target that they have been fired upon (and because the missiles are the slowest projectiles in the game they have plenty of time to make use of that radar derper module)

Requires a lock to fire accuratley and that lock must be maintained while the slowest projectile in the game lazily drifts over to a target that has now been warned this happening and only needs to step a bit to break the lock because of the radar derper.

In order to be fired indirectly SOMETHING MUST "SEE" the intended target. It's not like the LRMs can target anyone any place it requires LOS from something. And if it can see you you can see it.

Edited by Lykaon, 27 June 2016 - 03:39 AM.

[El Bandito]

wanderer, on 26 June 2016 - 09:25 AM, said:

(Note: The following is partially tongue-in-cheek, but the suggested fixes aren't.)

Dear PGI Lotsa-lurm-lobbers,

First off, I'm a long, LONG time user of the Piranha Long Range Missile Launchers. If I had children, I'd probably name one of them Itano because face it, nine months for your personal missile launcher to reach target is probably about right for these things.

First, about the speed downgrades. My launcher takes the scenic tour getting to it's targets, even more so because apparently a rocket going at 175 was breaking the speed limit so you cranked them down to a glacial 160.

Meanwhile, a NARC capable of hitting at 600m+ is considered slow when fired at a velocity of -500-. Let's do some simple math here. If an LRM traveling 160m/sec is fired at a target 1000m away, how long does it take to arrive at it's station?

Answer:

Spoiler

6.5 seconds, although "way too freaking long to actually hit anyone intelligent" is a valid answer too.

This results in a weapon with a stated range of 1000m that in fact, probably is only useful inside 600m and actually reasonably accurate inside 400m. Clearly, something got broken in the PLRM propulsion system.

Simple fix: Increase LRM velocity to at least 200, which at least cuts travel time down to a maximum of 5 seconds at extreme range. Velocity increase has greater effects at longer ranges in terms of accuracy improvement, pushing the outer limits of effectiveness further.

Second, about the guidance system. LRM 5s seem to come installed with a great one- reasonably hitting a target in the chest if they aren't dashing around too much and facing you. For some reason (maybe to save on production costs?) the PLRM 10, 15, and 20 get increasingly cheap ones, causing them to put larger and larger numbers of missiles into anything BUT where an LRM 5 goes. LRM 15's and 20's are guaranteed to miss a stationary target completely with some of their missiles, never mind a moving one. Clearly, something got broken in the PLRM guidance systems.

Simple fix: change the spread numbers for LRM 15-20 launchers to match the LRM 10, and possibly bump the spread slightly wider for LRM 5s.

Third, for a "smart" weapon system, it has this nagging problem when fired in enclosed spaces. It automatically fires itself into the nearest patch of ceiling. Aside from having to dodge the resulting falling rocks, it doesn't do much to the actual thing I'm aiming at. Sure, I know I can't override the tracking mode, but at least fire the darn things in a straight line when I don't use the lock-on system. For that matter, it'll fire into roofs if it's in lock-on mode on a target that's clearly in cover- and my PLRMs are horrible at anti-terrain effects.

Simple fix: LRMs fired without a lock travel in a straight line, much like SRMs..

Repeated notes having really had no responses lately, I figured I'd put this public one up and see if anyone in the company notices. While I'm sure you could scrap the entire system and start over, I figure simple fixes like this will make things better without having to rebuild the PLRMs from zero.

Thanks muchly from one of your best customers (I can't count how many PLRM launchers I've bought, never mind the ammo!),

Wanderer

As a connoisseur of LRMs, I must say that:

[PhoenixFire55]

wanderer, on 26 June 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:

Clearly. Let's just say all of your lasers take an extra hardpoint + a few more tons just to be average. No? That's too bad.

Sure. I'd be all for 10t PPCs and 17t Gauss as long as they'll also get an auto-hit mode that your LRMs do.

Here's the thing ...

LRM5 = 5 damage / 2 tons + ammo / 2 heat / 1 crit / 1000m range
AC 5 = 5 damage / 8 tons + ammo / 1 heat / 4 crits / 620m range
ML = 5 damage / 1 ton / 4 heat / 1 crit / 270m range

Looks pretty balanced to me.

wanderer, on 26 June 2016 - 01:32 PM, said:

1) Put target in crosshairs, pull trigger.

Yeah, it is exactly that simple. In your perfect world of enemies that stand still and don't shoot back. But please, tell us more how difficult is it to aim with LRMs in comparison.

wanderer, on 26 June 2016 - 01:32 PM, said:

2)Damage begins in a fraction of a second. If ballistic weapons or PPCs, you can even duck down behind cover as soon as you fire. You can even get the full potential damage of your weapon without a single added bit of help.

Sounds like a typical LRM ... always needs someone elses help to be useful lol.

wanderer, on 26 June 2016 - 06:14 PM, said:

Again, though- why should a weapon be total junk because bad players gravitate to it? It's already got more counters in the game than anything else. Bad players are still bad with LRMs, still going to pour salt getting killed by LRMs competent players avoid, still going to get slaughtered like sheep because most of the time, they're busy blaming the rain when it's the guy shooting them with direct fire who gets them down.

From what I've seen in MWO in 4 years any and all weapons are as good/bad as players using them. Its just the thing that "indirect" part of LRMs somehow makes the baddiness of certain players so very much apparent.

As for counters ... meh. ECM is countered by TAG, UAV, BAP, counter ECM, that aren't even necesserily on your mech. Deprivation module is countered by target retention module. AMS ... which 95% of people don't even bother using is only useful against a steam of LRM5 spam. Only thing that really counters LRMs is allmighty rock, but that works for all weapons.

LRMs are good in many ways. Only indirect fire weapon. No need to aim, i.e. noob friendly. Very high sustained DPS over a period of time ~20-30s, which is only rivaled by ballistics that weight much more for same DPS. Plus, they shake the target constantly which makes it more difficult to return fire etc. There are obvious down-sides, but this is true for all weapons. If you can't use pros of your weapon and only cry about its cons then the problem is you.

The fact that lots of people use LRMs says it all. It is a weapon that isn't any better or worse than anything else. Only place you don't see it are matches between competitive teams, and the reason for it is spread damage. Anything that spreads damage just doesn't go into comp.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 27 June 2016 - 04:24 AM.

[El Bandito]

PhoenixFire55, on 27 June 2016 - 04:22 AM, said:

Sure. I'd be all for 10t PPCs and 17t Gauss as long as they'll also get an auto-hit mode that your LRMs do.

Here's the thing ...

LRM5 = 5 damage / 2 tons + ammo / 2 heat / 1 crit / 1000m range
AC 5 = 5 damage / 8 tons + ammo / 1 heat / 4 crits / 620m range
ML = 5 damage / 1 ton / 4 heat / 1 crit / 270m range

Looks pretty balanced to me.

LRM5 is actually the best of the LRM system due to its DPS per ton and tight spread. The higher the launcher goes, more ineffective it becomes, unlike ACs, or lasers. Therefore your example is flawed.

PhoenixFire55, on 27 June 2016 - 04:22 AM, said:

Yeah, it is exactly that simple. In your perfect world of enemies that stand still and don't shoot back. But please, tell us more how difficult is it to aim with LRMs in comparison.

Take the example of two mech facing each other at a distance. One has LRMs, the other has ACs. With LRMs you will have to lock the enemy first, which means face time while the enemy has free shot on you. And once your missiles finally leave the launcher, the enemy is ducking behind cover already. LRMs are way more situational.

PhoenixFire55, on 27 June 2016 - 04:22 AM, said:

Sounds like a typical LRM ... always needs someone elses help to be useful lol.

Which is why OP made this thread. LRMs need quality of life changes to be useful on its own, starting from 200ms velocity.

PhoenixFire55, on 27 June 2016 - 04:22 AM, said:

From what I've seen in MWO in 4 years any and all weapons are as good/bad as players using them. Its just the thing that "indirect" part of LRMs somehow makes the baddiness of certain players so very much apparent.

Of course weapon effectiveness depends on player skill. I have been lurming ever since I played this game, from 2012. I am better lurmer than most in MWO. And I can confidently say that LRMs are very very situational, and usually on the less useful side, compared to other weapon systems, such as lasers.

PhoenixFire55, on 27 June 2016 - 04:22 AM, said:

As for counters ... meh. ECM is countered by TAG, UAV, BAP, counter ECM, that aren't even necesserily on your mech. Deprivation module is countered by target retention module. AMS ... which 95% of people don't even bother using is only useful against a steam of LRM5 spam. Only thing that really counters LRMs is allmighty rock, but that works for all weapons.

Except cover is much much more effective vs. LRMs due to its abysmal travel speed.The ECM nerf had helped LRMs to be not as crappy as before, but compared to lasers, or ACs? LRMs are clearly sub par.

PhoenixFire55, on 27 June 2016 - 04:22 AM, said:

LRMs are good in many ways. Only indirect fire weapon. No need to aim, i.e. noob friendly. Very high sustained DPS over a period of time ~20-30s, which is only rivaled by ballistics that weight much more for same DPS. Plus, they shake the target constantly which makes it more difficult to return fire etc. There are obvious down-sides, but this is true for all weapons. If you can't use pros of your weapon and only cry about its cons then the problem is you.

The fact that lots of people use LRMs says it all. It is a weapon that isn't any better or worse than anything else. Only place you don't see it are matches between competitive teams, and the reason for it is spread damage. Anything that spreads damage just doesn't go into comp.

Except LRM's cons outweigh its pros. Being noob friendly, or good against noobs is no excuse for a weapon to stay sub-par. High sustained damage means little when the damage is so easily spread. As is, LRM5s are the only non-sucky LRM type, and it only works on mechs with 5+ missile slots, limiting its usage.

[Darth Hotz]

Have you gentlemen already imagined how the game would look like, if lrms would get all the buffs you want? I foresee a LRM 20 Armageddon where noone dares to leave cover and the game would become even more static than it is now, rewarding coward gameplay with insta kills from 1000m away. Lurmwarrior online.

You people really want this?

[El Bandito]

Darth Hotz, on 27 June 2016 - 05:25 AM, said:

Have you gentlemen already imagined how the game would look like, if lrms would get all the buffs you want? I foresee a LRM 20 Armageddon where noone dares to leave cover and the game would become even more static than it is now, rewarding coward gameplay with insta kills from 1000m away. Lurmwarrior online.

You people really want this?

PGI can balance those changes by making the counter measures more effective, such as giving AMS faster RoF. The end result will be LRMs becoming less situational but still can be countered.

Heck, give AMS small C-Bill bonus for shooting down missiles, as incentive for people mounting it.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 June 2016 - 05:32 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

LRMs are ton for ton the worst weapon system in the game - 75% of your damage will hit the surrounding. (or at least on the average) - giving weight and heat - in a direct comparison the IS LRM 20 is as 40times as worse as the IS UAC5.
Of course, there are those games where LRMs are bad - and everybody must have experienced those moments when you get caught in the open and a rain of metal vaporized your mech in no time.

With such extremes between worthless and being extremely good its obvious that the LRMs can't be fixed by "simple" xml mojo. Not like most other weapons.

If you just plain buff the LRMs those "freaking NoobTubers Moments will rise" because it is really frustrating to get Lurmed without chance to counter.
But don't forget we have AMS, Radar Derp, ECM against LRM and NARC and TAG and Target Decay that work for LRMs. So from the potential there was lots of work that were put into LRMs.

....
....
what if LRMs use the Streak mechanic? Locking on component parts. But instead of lobbing 5/10/15/20 missiles its always just 5 missiles with the difference that LRM20s deal more damage per missile.

• LRM 5 = 5 Missiles 0.7dmg point, 0.2dmg splash
  
• LRM 10 = 5 Missiles 1.2dmg point 0.5dmg splash
  
• LRM 15 = 5 Missiles 1.7dmg point 0.8dmg splash
  
• LRM 20 = 5 Missiles 2.2 dmg point 1.1dmg splash

Edited by Karl Streiger, 27 June 2016 - 05:38 AM.

[Bobzilla]

The best solution is to have LRMs accelerate in flight, so time to target is the same at any distance (400m 1.5 seconds, 1000m 1.5 seconds), and adjust the acceleration to a desired time to target. Maybe even have a set minimum starting speed.

I'd start at 1.5 seconds and adjust from there.

[PhoenixFire55]

El Bandito, on 27 June 2016 - 05:13 AM, said:

LRM5 is actually the best of the LRM system due to its DPS per ton and tight spread. The higher the launcher goes, more ineffective it becomes, unlike ACs, or lasers. Therefore your example is flawed.

Oh please tell me more how AC20 that has a knife-fight range is more effective than AC5, or how LL/ERLL with duration of forever and weight x5 is more effective than ML. Everything is relative, EACH weapon has a situation where it excels.

El Bandito, on 27 June 2016 - 05:13 AM, said:

Take the example of two mech facing each other at a distance. One has LRMs, the other has ACs. With LRMs you will have to lock the enemy first, which means face time while the enemy has free shot on you. And once your missiles finally leave the launcher, the enemy is ducking behind cover already. LRMs are way more situational.

LRM isn't a weapon that'll win you "trades". Neither are ACs. Once again, you have to put yourself into the situation where your weapon will have an advantage. If you can't, thats your problem, not the weapons system.

El Bandito, on 27 June 2016 - 05:13 AM, said:

Which is why OP made this thread. LRMs need quality of life changes to be useful on its own, starting from 200ms velocity.

Milliseconds huh? ...

And once again, people don't use weapons that aren't "useful", in terms of "usefulness" from what I see LRMs are far more useful than LBXs/SRMs/SLs/SPLs/MGs/Flamers/CERLLs. Somehow certain people don't need any buffs to LRMs to make them work, they already find them good enough, while bads are gonna bad regardless of if its 160m/s or 200m/s or 500m/s. Question is how far are you gonna buff LRM speed until lololurmers are gonna be happy?

El Bandito, on 27 June 2016 - 05:13 AM, said:

Of course weapon effectiveness depends on player skill. I have been lurming ever since I played this game, from 2012. I am better lurmer than most in MWO. And I can confidently say that LRMs are very very situational, and usually on the less useful side, compared to other weapon systems, such as lasers.

Which has nothing to do with the effectivness of the weapon and everything to do with situations you and your teammates put yourselves into.

El Bandito, on 27 June 2016 - 05:13 AM, said:

Except cover is much much more effective vs. LRMs due to its abysmal travel speed.The ECM nerf had helped LRMs to be not as crappy as before, but compared to lasers, or ACs? LRMs are clearly sub par.

In case you didn't know. Cover stops 100% of weapons, be it LRMs or BFG or whatever. Everything else is a different matter. Flanking works just as good for LRM as it does for lasers and what else.

El Bandito, on 27 June 2016 - 05:13 AM, said:

Except LRM's cons outweigh its pros. Being noob friendly, or good against noobs is no excuse for a weapon to stay sub-par. High sustained damage means little when the damage is so easily spread. As is, LRM5s are the only non-sucky LRM type, and it only works on mechs with 5+ missile slots, limiting its usage.

LRMs only suck in indirect fire mode (as they should) and suddenly become real good in direct fire mode (as they should) and the better the closer you are to your target (as they and pretty much any weapon should).

Cry all you want, but unless you and the PUGs around you won't stop hiding and playing peek-a-boo all the weapons are going to be bad for you.

[PhoenixFire55]

Karl Streiger, on 27 June 2016 - 05:37 AM, said:

LRMs are ton for ton the worst weapon system in the game - 75% of your damage will hit the surrounding.

There really is zero reason to read further. If 75% of your LRMs hit surroundings then stop launching at every stray target lock somebody happens to aquire, go and get your own solid locks.

[Karl Streiger]

PhoenixFire55, on 27 June 2016 - 06:33 AM, said:

There really is zero reason to read further. If 75% of your LRMs hit surroundings then stop launching at every stray target lock somebody happens to aquire, go and get your own solid locks.

Not my data - aprox 4.2dmg is dealt by a IS LRM20... the accuracy is much better with the LRM 5 (2.6dmg)
This data is based on the stats of 57 players.

If it is a combination of "fire and forget" mentality combined with "unlimited" ammunition loads (sorry >=3t per weapon = not very limited = unlimited) or if the weapon system is just unreliable is the question.

Considering the stats of other "high ammunition" based weapons like AC2 or UAC5s it have to be the reliability.

[El Bandito]

PhoenixFire55, on 27 June 2016 - 06:33 AM, said:

LRMs only suck in indirect fire mode (as they should) and suddenly become real good in direct fire mode (as they should) and the better the closer you are to your target (as they and pretty much any weapon should).

Cry all you want, but unless you and the PUGs around you won't stop hiding and playing peek-a-boo all the weapons are going to be bad for you.

Wanting a sub par weapon system to improve does not equal crying, BTW. And DF LRMs are pretty much joke compared to other weapon systems, unless your opponent is in a wide open place with no cover.

Edited by El Bandito, 27 June 2016 - 06:48 AM.

[Screech]

Funkin Disher, on 26 June 2016 - 06:42 PM, said:

Faster flight speed
Flatter flight path
LRM 10 spread for all launchers
1 ton ammo = 200 damage

Then we can tweak TAG, NARC, ART IV, BAP and modules around the base stats, rather than applying them like bandaids

Would be for all of this if they also removed the lock-on for direct fire. Having 1k ranged streaks would not be good for this game in any form.

[Nuka]

Please remove LRM. Problem solved.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Frankly PGI can't think out of the box. They are stuck.

Lrms should have optional Thermobaric warheads. At least those long shots would have some purpose by putting heat on the target. You would be able to suppress distant fire or slow down the enemies LRMS. It would make it more tactical than the noob launcher of choice that it is. I still play a couple of LRM boats but its pretty boring even when you know what your doing and they really don't help the team all that much.

[Big Bertha 00]

I don't disagree that LRMs are underpowered when compared directly to other primary weapons systems. LRMS, in it's current implementation, are designed to be supporting systems. When used with a spotter or UAV, can be highly effective in controlling movement, disorienting opponents, and accumulating damage.

LRMs were once more powerful. This resulted in "LRMamageddon."

[PhoenixFire55]

El Bandito, on 27 June 2016 - 06:43 AM, said:

Wanting a sub par weapon system to improve does not equal crying, BTW.

And it is sub par because stupids can't understand how to use it properly? k ...
Can I have my 10.0 DPS MGs yet?

El Bandito, on 27 June 2016 - 06:43 AM, said:

And DF LRMs are pretty much joke compared to other weapon systems, unless your opponent is in a wide open place with no cover.

How is it a joke when for example you have quad LRM15 and do 60 damage per shot. An Atlas with AC20 and three SRM6s does 59 damage per shot with about same efficiency (spread wise) at 300m range. Is brawler Atlas a joke nowadays too? Mauler with AC5s does 20-25 damage per shot, so it must be even bigger joke, right?

Once again, if you don't know how to use your weapon effectively don't start crying about how bad it is just based on your own inability.

[ExoForce]

Koniks, on 26 June 2016 - 03:58 PM, said:

You can, in fact, fire LRMs under cover and have them hit a target. Aim at the ground then bring the reticle back onto target so you don't lose lock. You can use the same technique to fire around and over cover.

Who gave You permission to reveal this info?

Edited by ExoForce, 27 June 2016 - 08:39 AM.