52 replies to this topic

[CK16]

Bishop a clumsy Heavy/Assualt pilot.....please do not make me pass out due to uncontrolled laughter!


Every time though I do smoke a light mech with a full Salvo and it is still mostly alive... I do feel like......welll....

Edited by CK16, 27 June 2016 - 11:19 AM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Bush Hopper, on 27 June 2016 - 10:27 AM, said:

Nope, I have to defend Bishop Steiner here as much as it galls me. He is NOT a troll (in this case at least). Bishop is just the average heavy or assault pilot (see picture) who holds the opinion that everything which isn't vaporised withing 2-3 alphas of their almighty warmachines must be nerfed because it is op. The picture furthermore testifies that it is absolutely the fault of the light mechs and not of the heavy or assault pilots

lol....

My heaviest regularly used chassis is a RFL-3N.

My usual ride is a HBK-4G or CN9-D.

Lights think they have it harsh? Maybe they should trying using that SPEED they have to do things beside running in straight lines and wondering why they got splatted. When I see a Light Jock who knows how to skirmish, they still seem to do just fine.

Dude, if you are going to try to troll, at least get your details straight to have some bit of cred?

[Weeny Machine]

Rampage, on 27 June 2016 - 11:01 AM, said:

Nice try but you are barking up the wrong tree. I believe that Bishop has stated many times that he is primarily a Medium pilot (as am I) maybe that is why he finds it funny that The Light Pilots are moaning about being nerfed when, in many cases, they are still faster, smaller, have as much armor and structure and some pack more of a punch than many Mediums.

But carry on. Everyone has their own agenda.

1. It is not about speed but that is the point which most of you do not get. Speed often isn't the only reason why shots miss you - it is also agility which lets you change direction quickly. However, this was also nerfed and heavies for example have often 20-45% more turn rate than lights. This just shows how ignorant some people are when they discuss lights. Sorry, I really didn't mean that as an offense

2. I prefered to pilot lights before the patch, now mediums. I give you a hint: it has to do with no. 1

3. As for Bishop...yeah...it is so funny when he defended the Kodiak-3 with tooth and nails and went nuts. I didn't even participate in the discussion much. Whatever...

[Tarogato]

Darian DelFord, on 27 June 2016 - 04:46 AM, said:

The problem with the Jenner is it's the EASIEST to hit CT of any mech and got bigger by 20%. And its mobility reduced significantly.

BTW video shows how the JEnners CT can be hit from 360 degree on the same ish elevation. NO OTHER MECH CAN SAY THAT.

If the hitboxes are what they were before the rescale, then this is still the progression to the current hitboxes:




The "hit 360 degrees" axiom is only true when you mount a second missile in the CT. Without that missile mounted the Jenner doesn't have that extra CT hitbox on the top. I'm not sure if PGI can fix this, the ACH has the same problem (the laser hardpoints on the tops of the STs count as front torso and can literally be hit from 360 degrees around, but you don't hear people complaining about that because the ACH is pretty much universally hated. )

I think in order to fix this issue PGI would have to remodel the CT to be like the new Catapult's arms, so that it doesn't add the extra VCR hitbox at the top. But I'm not sure it's worth it. And I don't think it's actually a problem. I think the hitboxes are fine, all I do is run one single point of armour on my rear. Since I'm guaranteed to use almost every single point of armour on the front, it's efficient. If you want to make the CT hitbox smaller, you'd have to make the STs bigger, which makes this mech more one-shottable.

The best fix, however, is to make Jenner's smaller. They don't have the armour to adequately survive the size that they currently are (and those goes for almost all 35-tonners, and the Kitfox... like seriously, how the everloving fuuu did PGI leave both the ACH and KFX pretty much untouched?)

[Coolant]

I love the fact that you seen Jenners a LOT less than pre-patch. Just goes to show that they were being used as crutch mechs just as I said, as pilots search for the next easy-mode mech.

Edited by Coolant, 27 June 2016 - 01:54 PM.

[Tarogato]

Coolant, on 27 June 2016 - 01:54 PM, said:

I love the fact that you seen Jenners a LOT less than pre-patch. Just goes to show that they were being used as crutch mechs just as I said, as pilots search for the next easy-mode mech.

People are going to flock to the options that perform best. What do you expect, people to intentionally handicap themselves by sticking with sup-par performers? Not everybody is like that. Only the neckbeards, masochists, and the anti-competitive.

[Tarl Cabot]

The real issue with the jenner is that it is like a chicken walker instead of humanoid, but worse is that the CT is a huge both horizontal and vertically. So when firing at it, especially with lasers, people move them more horizontally than vertically, even as the jenner is running around.

Compared to the other walkers, others do not have as much the exposed areas around and behind the cockpit. The Jenner CII does a better job of it than the IS Jenner, but I would also change the area between the legs to count as part of the R/L legs.

Hitboxes. The area sitting between the legs should be made part of left/right legs.
CT near cockpit - move side torsos 1/2 panel forward.
Backside, narrow the RCT and go from there.

In the end though, would it really matter when IS lights have to resort to isXL engines that destroys the mech when ONE side torso is lost?

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 27 June 2016 - 02:12 PM.

[Wraith 1]

I can deal with being hit more easily. The people complaining about lights won't be hitting me anyways.

My biggest problem with the rescale is how sluggish everything feels. Jenners feel more like a 50 tonner than a 35 tonner now. The bulk, the slower run animation, the medium movement archetype...

I'm honestly missing the days when my Oxide had -15% accel/decel!

I'm all for 'adapt and overcome', and I've certainly done that with even worse mechs than the current Jenner, but it simply isn't fun enough to be worth the effort now.

[Trauglodyte]

Bishop Steiner, on 26 June 2016 - 09:53 PM, said:

what?

You mean Light Mechs need to use tactics to kill Assaults and Heavies now?

IMPOSSIBRU!!!!!!!

In defense of the Jenners, Darian put up a nice video today that showed some pretty glaring problems with the hit boxes. Being able to shoot one from the rear and hitting it dead center only to have the damage go straight to the frontal CT is pretty bad. Doing that by hitting an antenna is one thing. Hitting the rear CT and having it all go to the front is stupid. Also, I'm not entirely sure that it has STs. I have to side with Darian that some of the issues with the Jenner, despite the size which I'm happy with, need to be addressed. That just is broken and incredibly uncool.

Tarl Cabot, on 27 June 2016 - 02:03 PM, said:

The real issue with the jenner is that it is like a chicken walker instead of humanoid, but worse is that the CT is a huge both horizontal and vertically. So when firing at it, especially with lasers, people move them more horizontally than vertically, even as the jenner is running around.

Compared to the other walkers, others do not have as much the exposed areas around and behind the cockpit. The Jenner CII does a better job of it than the IS Jenner, but I would also change the area between the legs to count as part of the R/L legs.

Hitboxes. The area sitting between the legs should be made part of left/right legs.
CT near cockpit - move side torsos 1/2 panel forward.
Backside, narrow the RCT and go from there.

In the end though, would it really matter when IS lights have to resort to isXL engines that destroys the mech when ONE side torso is lost?

Welcome to the world of the Cicada. I'm not hating on you, just saying that we've had to deal with this for 4+ years. The only thing that I would say that needs to be fixed is the CT hitting from the rear. Just not cool and not conducive to being a combat Light.

Light players are going to need to adapt. The days of flying around with impunity have gotten shorter and shorter as the years have gone by. Being larger (read: size balanced) is going to be something to which you also need to adjust. You guys can do it. That less players are running Lights has more to do with it being "too hard, QQ" than them not actually being viable. Though, I'd be up for broader agility quirks for Lights (include Cicadas here).

Edited by Trauglodyte, 27 June 2016 - 05:01 PM.

[Darian DelFord]

Trauglodyte, on 27 June 2016 - 04:51 PM, said:

Light players are going to need to adapt. The days of flying around with impunity have gotten shorter and shorter as the years have gone by. Being larger (read: size balanced) is going to be something to which you also need to adjust. You guys can do it. That less players are running Lights has more to do with it being "too hard, QQ" than them not actually being viable. Though, I'd be up for broader agility quirks for Lights (include Cicadas here).

"Part" of my angst are prominent heavy and assault players stating its about time in regards to the Jenners and lights over all. All of which are hiding behind their own structure and weapon quirks. I think its safe to say that the quirk on the non Oxide Jenners is a bit laughable.

Honestly what I think needs to happen is open up the PTS set all quirks to zilch then re-do the whole damn thing.

Granted Quirks is the worst way to balance but its all we have.

[Trauglodyte]

Darian DelFord, on 28 June 2016 - 12:40 PM, said:

"Part" of my angst are prominent heavy and assault players stating its about time in regards to the Jenners and lights over all. All of which are hiding behind their own structure and weapon quirks. I think its safe to say that the quirk on the non Oxide Jenners is a bit laughable.

Honestly what I think needs to happen is open up the PTS set all quirks to zilch then re-do the whole damn thing.

Granted Quirks is the worst way to balance but its all we have.

I agree with you entirely. Is there a reason why the Catapult has such insane structure quirks now that it has been shrunk by, what, 40%? The re-quirk-ening needs to happen soon because there are some mechs that definitely don't need their prior quirks and some that need them added to the chassis. What PGI has to be careful about is over quirking something. Take for instance, the Jenner. Prior to the resizing, neither it nor the Firestarter had structure quirks because of the combination of speed, JJs, and lots of weapon hard points. This is why the Wolfhound actually had structure quirks - equal speed, not significant enough agility, but no JJs. But, now that they've been resized, it is definitely time to address the lack of survivability quirks and maybe like 5-10% turn speed buffs. JJs make it hard to make adjustments here because that added mobility does so much.

[Darian DelFord]

Trauglodyte, on 28 June 2016 - 03:58 PM, said:

I agree with you entirely. Is there a reason why the Catapult has such insane structure quirks now that it has been shrunk by, what, 40%? The re-quirk-ening needs to happen soon because there are some mechs that definitely don't need their prior quirks and some that need them added to the chassis. What PGI has to be careful about is over quirking something. Take for instance, the Jenner. Prior to the resizing, neither it nor the Firestarter had structure quirks because of the combination of speed, JJs, and lots of weapon hard points. This is why the Wolfhound actually had structure quirks - equal speed, not significant enough agility, but no JJs. But, now that they've been resized, it is definitely time to address the lack of survivability quirks and maybe like 5-10% turn speed buffs. JJs make it hard to make adjustments here because that added mobility does so much.

The Resizing does not really bother me for any of the mechs. If its all uniform no problem. The problem I am having is they took barely viable chassis and nuked them into the ground. Along with that they changed the archetypes of mechs which I have absolutely NO idea why they did that. The movement type is what is the hardest to adjust to. Damn Jenner and spider both moves like its stuck in a swamp.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 28 June 2016 - 05:24 PM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Quote

Welcome to the world of the Cicada. I'm not hating on you, just saying that we've had to deal with this for 4+ years. The only thing that I would say that needs to be fixed is the CT hitting from the rear. Just not cool and not conducive to being a combat Light.

(nods) that is where the area between the legs should be relegated to the legs. That would help but not eliminate hitting the FCT from the rear, there is still the area on top.

If you review the noise about the upcoming resizing, what did PGI show us? A reduced Nova, a reduced Catapult, was there another? But while waving around the rescaling, afair, not once did PGI exhibit any mechs that were getting larger. That is why there has been such a shitstorm.

Quirk this, quirk that, the issue that with the rescaling competed by using a formula they had not had in effect while creating the MWO mechs, does anyone believe PGI will do any touchups/reimaging of mechs? I am not holding my breath on it.

The sad thing though is the repercussions down the line. PGI had an opportunity here to garner more trust, faith that MWO were in okay hands with the rescaling, even with the bust of the FP update, but the route they took and how they failed to present it properly has caused many to lower their expectations of PGI, loss of trust/faith.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 28 June 2016 - 05:46 PM.