80 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

El Bandito, on 29 June 2016 - 06:04 PM, said:

I personally think there are too many factions dividing the population, but this works too. I also hate the fact that big merc units have more population than most if not all big house units. Immersion breaking. Where is the thrill and risk of being a merc if you can bully your way through factions with greater number?

To be fair, being a Loyalist isn't profitable, or even worth being loyal to (get to level 20, and lol, the end).

[El Bandito]

Deathlike, on 29 June 2016 - 06:09 PM, said:

To be fair, being a Loyalist isn't profitable, or even worth being loyal to (get to level 20, and lol, the end).

Same can be said of being a merc, but here we are. Ultimately PGI is to blame.

[MischiefSC]

El Bandito, on 29 June 2016 - 06:04 PM, said:

I personally think there are too many factions dividing the population, but this works too. I also hate the fact that big merc units have more population than most if not all big house units. Immersion breaking. Where is the thrill and risk of being a merc if you can bully your way through factions with greater number?

Solution to that is have Loyalists flat out make more money.

Give loyalists a CBill and LP bonus that they can give up a little of to attract mercs. So a 3 day long vote - How much of your bonus you want to give up. Goes for 2 weeks. For that 2 weeks mercs can either join a faction with no bonus, just regular pay or they can apply for the "contract". That gives loyalists 3 days to affirm or deny that merc for a contract at that bonus level.

The more mercs you have on approved contracts the lower your loyalist bonus. This means good merc units can get bonuses and be courted by contracts from loyalists willing to lose some bonus to attract mercs for a while.

Mercs get to move around. Why pay them more in general?

[Vagosei]

MischeifSC you are soo right...the only thing that is left out is the fact that some of the larger merc units are still following each other. IDK why they are but that is also part of the problem. And will continue untill there is a solution for that also.

[MischiefSC]

The solution is not to try and control player behavior with a stick. People do what they are motivated to do. You reward the behaviors you want and people will do it.

Use PSR to scale pay for matches. Good units playing vs good units pays really well, good units stomping pugs pays poorly they'll find each other.

[slide]

Kin3ticX, on 29 June 2016 - 04:30 PM, said:

has anyone counted how many planets are on this map? there could be more planets than people playing the game

Somewhere between 3000 and 3300. Depending on how many planets were included in the periphery.

Just added up the faction aligned planets from the faction leader boards. 1927

So yes everyone could probably have their own planet. (or close to it)

[White Bear 84]

As it stands there is little incentive in AP if you consider the CF flip.. ..take AEST; That is pretty much the entire east coast AU. Working nin-five you get home from work, there is 6 hours to flip a planet. There are 13 wedges, lets say each round is the full 30mins. Ok so out of that you need at least 7 wedges to claim the planet, 7x30 = 210. But wait, you have to factor in counter attacks, so lets tack on another 210 minutes.

Of course everyone has real life, dinner, relaxing after work etc etc and most players are on from 8.30-9 onwards. Sh*t, thats two hours to try and turn a planet that (Without wait time included) would take 420minutes or 7hrs to turn if you only have one team of 12 and the games play out to the max time.

By general logic then, the issue is simply that trying to fit 7hrs into 2hrs when you do not have the population to make up for the time discrepancy, no surprise no one cares. Then the issue repeats for Indonesia, Western Australia and Singapore...
I would LOVE to play more FP, but as it stands, from the perspective of an Oceanic player.. ..there is just really no point right now. Ceasefire and population kill it.

Edited by White Bear 84, 29 June 2016 - 06:48 PM.

[WANTED]

Agree with Mischief. I would like to vote on merc units and donating my share. It seems so hollow at moment voting on who to attack when you don't get a say on which planet that is. Wasted feature for Loyalist.

[MischiefSC]

White Bear 84, on 29 June 2016 - 06:47 PM, said:

As it stands there is little incentive in AP if you consider the CF flip.. ..take AEST; That is pretty much the entire east coast AU. Working nin-five you get home from work, there is 6 hours to flip a planet. There are 13 wedges, lets say each round is the full 30mins. Ok so out of that you need at least 7 wedges to claim the planet, 7x30 = 210. But wait, you have to factor in counter attacks, so lets tack on another 210 minutes.

Of course everyone has real life, dinner, relaxing after work etc etc and most players are on from 8.30-9 onwards. Sh*t, thats two hours to try and turn a planet that (Without wait time included) would take 420minutes or 7hrs to turn if you only have one team of 12 and the games play out to the max time.

By general logic then, the issue is simply that trying to fit 7hrs into 2hrs when you do not have the population to make up for the time discrepancy, no surprise no one cares. Then the issue repeats for Indonesia, Western Australia and Singapore...
I would LOVE to play more FP, but as it stands, from the perspective of an Oceanic player.. ..there is just really no point right now. Ceasefire and population kill it.

One ceasefire. No wedges, just total wins over 24 hours. Every match you play is as useful and valid as every match played in NA PT. You're adding to your factions total wins and driving the meter your way.

This rewards you for playing no matter what time, your match is just as useful as the last match played.

[justcallme A S H]

White Bear 84, on 29 June 2016 - 06:47 PM, said:

As it stands there is little incentive in AP if you consider the CF flip.. ..take AEST; That is pretty much the entire east coast AU. Working nin-five you get home from work, there is 6 hours to flip a planet. There are 13 wedges, lets say each round is the full 30mins. Ok so out of that you need at least 7 wedges to claim the planet, 7x30 = 210. But wait, you have to factor in counter attacks, so lets tack on another 210 minutes.

Of course everyone has real life, dinner, relaxing after work etc etc and most players are on from 8.30-9 onwards. Sh*t, thats two hours to try and turn a planet that (Without wait time included) would take 420minutes or 7hrs to turn if you only have one team of 12 and the games play out to the max time.

By general logic then, the issue is simply that trying to fit 7hrs into 2hrs when you do not have the population to make up for the time discrepancy, no surprise no one cares. Then the issue repeats for Indonesia, Western Australia and Singapore...
I would LOVE to play more FP, but as it stands, from the perspective of an Oceanic player.. ..there is just really no point right now. Ceasefire and population kill it.

You forget one crucial part. You only need to get a planet to 53% to flip it, so half your time investment calcs for a start. Then take out a further 40-60mins for the inevitable 2-3 ghost drops and the fact I rarely have a game go for 30mins either, usually 20mins (play aggressive or go home).

You'll find it doesn't actually take that long to flip a planet even in Oceanic as you think, 2.5hrs is doable, max 3hrs

My Unit (54MR) has managed to flip planets in Oceanic timeslots with a 4-8 man and PUGs... It's just hard work sometimes to actually get drops/opponents more than flipping it.

Half of the Oceanic issue is all us Oceanic's are spread across so many units, and thus factions - so out of the population pool, if there was a few of us in the same faction, we'd actually be fine to at least get attacking games going no worries.

Problem is people are obviously loyal to their units and don't wanna leave so we will always be forever spread thin.

Edited by R31Nismoid, 29 June 2016 - 07:31 PM.

[White Bear 84]

R31Nismoid, on 29 June 2016 - 07:30 PM, said:

You forget one crucial part. You only need to get a planet to 53% to flip it, so half your time investment calcs for a start.

Nope, accounted for - there are 13 segments, so you need 7 to flip (7x30 - 210 minutes), then you also have 7 counter attacks...

Bearing in mind that I understand that matches do not always last the full 30 minutes and of course you are right that I have not included ghost drops, but the example I am providing is more of a 'working as intended' estimate

Of course I also assume everything goes smoothly and each conquest is a win..

That said, biggest issue is and always has been population numbers.. ..since I am talking in term of scrounging a 12 man group together

Edited by White Bear 84, 29 June 2016 - 07:41 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Ah yeah I didn't read fully to be honest, I saw 7hrs and I was like DAFUQ, it's never taken me that long, I must now type with haste to resolve this lol.

That said once you start attacking you'll find another 12 players usually appear once they see somewhere active. That can either help or hinder as we all know.

I've lost hope of ever having a 12-man in Oceanic. I aim to rally up about 6-8 and work on it from there. If there are good PUGs, pick them up in LFG - the bad ones, hope they cycle out. And when I say bad, I mean ones that don't listen/help... I couldn't give a toss if you only do 400dmg. As long as you move with the team, that is the best place to start

Edited by R31Nismoid, 29 June 2016 - 07:49 PM.

[Jumping Gigolo]

Reward at least 10 MC per drop to players dropping in CW. Then many will want to attack.

And make players from other faction group up in attack

[justcallme A S H]

Maybe I should start a FP discussion thread to rule them all?

Try get all the issues in one place and then move into the ideas/fixes stage... Too many topics going around and not enough collecting of the ideas and equally not enough understanding of the root causes of a few things

[Mercil3ss]

Good original post. Well said. I wanted to add my 2 cents which has probably been said by everyone before at one time or another.

Population is a reflection of the quality of faction play and the incentives being offered. Right now the quality is pretty poor and there are not good incentives and the population is dwindling to record-low levels as a result.

Faction play has many problems but I will name the ones that I feel are most important.

• Every planetary experience is essentially the same. It is a fun experience for a little while, once you find a unit and have decent hot and cold decks, but you can only play the same 6 maps with the same game mode for so long.
  
• Factions (outside the basic clan or IS choice) are meaningless. It is better just to go with whatever gets you games than a faction you like or respect. The only thing differentiating factions is a logo and different colored space.
  
• There are no meaningful rewards in FP. Or perhaps the rate of rewards is ultimately meaningless. You can get more rewards playing quick play for a few hours on an event weekend than playing a week of FP. And faction ranks. which should be incentives, do nothing. Incentives influence behavior, especially in a FTP game.
  
• Scouting, while interesting at first simply because it was different than the invasion grind, just detracts from the overall experience considerably. It splits an already sparse population and makes both FP experiences worse all for the sake of "content" that just re-branded QP with some shiny sticks.
  
• There is just too much space and too many factions that are irrelevant. Phase 3 sought to narrow the FP combat window, which was needed, but the way it was narrowed punished those who wanted to stay with their faction. Why not choose an area of space on a particular front between factions each week with only a few planets to focus on and then provide meaningful player and unit rewards for participating in that weekly battle? You could make the faction participation flexible enough to work without causing players to lose their faction identity. Make every faction relevant by allowing them to have meaningful MW experiences with live combat and not forcing them to fight on the dead fronts of the overly massive map.
  
• Finally and most importantly FP never gets better. There are no hints of real progress. All resources are spent on trivial things like new mechs, interface changes and mech size. While these are nice additions these are really polish items that should be tabled until the core content improves.

While this sounds like all doom and gloom, there is a bright side. The combat is still very compelling and for the most part balanced. If they could just add some substance to the combat, a reason to fight if you will, this could be a very good and successful game.

Despite how good the combat is the strategic direction is seriously flawed. While new mechs are great, and they probably keep the lights on at PGI let's be honest, they are just at the end of the day they do nothing to improve the end game experience. And worse the remaining dev resources not working on new mechs are being spent on trivial improvements. Like the pilot model, I don't think there was a lot of clambering over the need to improve the pilot's legs and hands that you only see for about 3 seconds as you drop. Like the mini-map which was totally fine before. Like the FP menus which is like putting new paint on an old rusty car that won't start. And on and on and on...

The addition of trivial features at the expense FP substance neglect leads me to believe that nobody there in power knows how to develop compelling FP content and so the answer becomes "work on everything else but FP." If I were PGI I would go back and play all the previous MW games and get some ideas. Find the essence of what makes MW games MW games at a level beyond the combat and bring it to this cerebral and generally exceptional combat system that we all love.

To PGI: You have to get FP right, plain and simple. Now you have taken so long to improve it your game is dying. Your investors want you to make money, which means releasing as many new mechs as you can, but your game with die with new mechs in the release queue if you don't fix FP. There is much more money to be made long term with a game that people still want to play months or years from now. There is no time to spare redesigning the pilot model's pants anymore, get to what matters and fast.

[Lehmund]

I love many comments here because they are constructive.

In particular the notes about making combat on a planet a full day thing with a single ceasefire and tabulating a meter towards capture of the planet.

I would also like to mention that FW would fare Much better if the FW maps were not small and all about entering choke points. No variety of gameplay there and is not something ppl enjoy doing over and over.

Another great idea from another thread was to start dropping and matching invasions as 4v4 and dynamically drop more pilots a lance at a time (both sides of course) until it's a 12v12.

Would be easy even on Oceanic to get matches going, would add variety of gameplay and strategies and reduce by much the amount of ghost drops.

As the title says, there isn't a population problem, but a design and player motivation issue here, both of which can be resolved by better map design and ease to get into matches.

Creating fewer buckets is not the solution, a faster, better FW experience is.

Make that happen and pilots will flock to FW in droves instead of constant QP and problem solved.

[Lehmund]

Oh also remember developing a game takes planning and time.

PGI has updates and fixes scheduled and announced up to mid-July update. We'll likely be told what the next 3 months will include in July. One can only hope that they are considering these posts .

Until then, don't expect anything since the devs and artists are busy getting the July update out. Designers however are drafting the next todo list....

[AssaultPig]

population is far from the only problem, but it is the acute problem.

even on (what I assume is) currently the hottest front (CJF/steiner/FRR), there are only a handful of games going during peak U.S. hours and at offpeak hours it's pretty bleak. I assume the situation is more dire along other fronts (I've only been FRR lately.) Fewer players means more waiting which means fewer players.

what I wish they'd do is consolidate the whole FP map into a campaign involving 2-4 factions; people could still play IS, clan or merc, you could have some kind of actual win condition for bragging rights/rewards purposes, and it'd focus the playerbase so that games could happen more often. Basically just the tukayyiid event, only with ten or so planets instead of one.

Edited by AssaultPig, 29 June 2016 - 11:04 PM.

[50 50]

A lot of good comments and observations here, keep it going.

It is a tough decision to narrow the number of factions in game to consolidate the population, but I don't believe it is a real solution. All it takes is 12 players on each side to create a match so it should be that hard to get action around the entire system. However, I believe the lack of population is more to do with the content in faction play. Quick play simply has more variety, more maps and is more engaging.

There is a lot I would like to add but I might just focus on a couple of points at the moment.

1. Attack vs Defend.
We can currently defend for allies. Do we have to many allies? Often it looks like 1 faction vs many when you see the composition of the teams. The idea to vote for an ally each phase could be considered. It opens the door to add other supporting features. It's an idea worth exploring.

2. Attack Phases.
I saw MS take 3 planets in the first 24 hours of phase 3. That seemed fast. Really fast. Ghost Bear had lost 2 by the time I got home after work and was able to log in. Then with only a couple of hours to play there was no hope of stopping the 3rd from dropping.
* Break each planet into 3 zones each with X sectors.
* Have each zone hosted in the primetime relevant to the 3 servers (NA, EU, OC) for X hours each.
* Make the contest of a planet take a day, a week.... make it meaning full.

3. It's not a match.
I rather dislike the term match when we think about faction play. It doesn't set the right tone or frame of mind. It's not about scoreboards, points earned or damage dealt. It's not quick play or Solaris.
Make it a Battle!
* Ditch the match timer.
* Make it a continuous battle where players can hot swap in and out of the battle under given conditions over the course of the attack phase for that Zone. (See point 2)
* If we can consider quick play the practice for faction play, lets utilize all those modes in one big mode. (Including a different version of scouting and the orbital cannons)
* By utilizing different objectives from the different modes, introduce dynamic changes to the battle. For example:
- Capturing a certain point may allow players to 'drop/join' the battle from that location.
- Holding a position may give your team access to certain benefits. (Radar sweep, airstrikes, artillery etc)
- Control the orbital cannon so we can land a Union or Overlord which allows more players to deploy at once. (ie 4 instead of 1 or something)
* If making a HUGE map is not possible, work out how to join smaller maps together in a semi random fashion.
* Build a lobby where we can see who is playing and make plans before dropping.

Obviously there is a lot to this but faction play should be epic and tell a big story.

4. Consider moving the Clans back to the Kerensky Cluster.
The methods and structures of the Clans are a bit different. It would be nice to build them in. (ie. Bidding, trials.... stars instead of lances etc). This also has some other benefits:
* We immediately reduce the number of factions battling in the inner sphere.
* It allows us time to work on the structure and features for faction play without worrying about Clan vs IS Balance.
* It means MWO can have Succession Wars!
While this is going on, to keep the Clan side of things going work on bidding and trials so the Clans have their own structure different to the IS and it means something.

So much more to say... but going to go jump into the game and have some fun!

[TWIAFU]

Iron Buccaneer, on 29 June 2016 - 01:41 PM, said:

That front has been dead since the end of the phase 3 event. Well before your Operation launched.

Maybe for you, but not for us in Davion before this new Operation launched to help our FedCom brother and sisters.

Now we are busy dropping against Clans and laughing out loud when we see some tagged defenders of a planet we are attacking INTENTIONALLY DC/Eject/Suicide after the first 3-5mins of battle.