38 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

I'm just come to just accept that many players are bad @ situational awareness. It's akin to Assault (base capping), but worse.

People refuse to reposition - holding a position that's either ineffective (bad trades) or inefficient (limited trading) and doesn't help the actual cause.

This is even BEFORE we talk about how badly the "green circle" is poorly positioned on various maps.

[bukidog]

Malachy Karrde, on 08 July 2016 - 04:25 AM, said:

I'm to the point in this game that I consider the light lance lost at the beginning of the match. I've learned that most of them are determined to do their own thing to the detriment of the match and team. Most of the time it gets them killed. If they actually contribute its a big surprise and appreciated.

Most heavy pilots don't recognize or appreciate light tactics and how it does contribute to the team. they just see us as running off. Normally that means we are scouting, flanking, harassing. Or being the squirrel that easily distracted enemy pilots chase. All of this is to give the heavy and assault lance the opportunity to push hard against a divided force. When they don't push, then yeah we get killed and your opinion that we were just determined to do our own thing is reinforced.

[Lykaon]

James Warren, on 08 July 2016 - 03:47 AM, said:

Sometimes its less frustrating to just fall back and watch your team lose to the timer. At least... that's the advice I wish I followed.

Its often the lights' fault, though.

"We lost because our lights were too busy capping instead of helping fight!"
"We lost because our lights wouldn't cap!"
"We lost because our lights wouldn't hold locks!"

I had one especially hilarious match where a guy announced at the start using voip, "two lights take Epsilon, two lights scout right flank". Meanwhile I was sitting there as the only light on the team (and not a fast one) wondering what sort of compromise I'd have to make. Of course the guy ragged us out later when we lost the match.

You get good at ignoring it, though.

If it was conquest his orders were bad even if you had enough lights to complete the orders.

a good set of conquest orders should be something like this.

2 fast mechs (lights with known speed characteristics like locusts or cheetahs etc) should be given these orders.

One takes the closest point

second takes the second closest point

Faster or ECM equiped light takes the enemy team's first capped point while the other light rejoins the fray for it's normal combat routine.

No one else should be going to or standing still on a cap point they should be forming up and moving to the most likely point of contact on the map in use.

If done correctly your team has 3 of the cap points and 11 mechs engaging whatever the other team has managed to hold together. Your 12th mech being the fastest or stealthiest will rejoin soon as well.

The capped points allow you to build resource score while the fight is progressing so you don't fall to far behind in the clean up phase of the match and also provides temptations for the enemy team to dispatch mechs to cap them rather than fight you giving your team better odds.

Your team has intelligently deployed assets in a way to provide maximum effects while the other team if played like a typical puggie conquest is just begining to get their forces marshaled after dithering and splitting to cap.

Edited by Lykaon, 08 July 2016 - 11:54 AM.

[Moldur]

Lights and fast mediums guide the hammer. Sometimes the hammer is oblivious.

[Lykaon]

Deathlike, on 08 July 2016 - 09:56 AM, said:

I'm just come to just accept that many players are bad @ situational awareness. It's akin to Assault (base capping), but worse.

People refuse to reposition - holding a position that's either ineffective (bad trades) or inefficient (limited trading) and doesn't help the actual cause.

This is even BEFORE we talk about how badly the "green circle" is poorly positioned on various maps.

What I have come to accept is many players have allowed their tactical minds to atrophy on a constant diet of skirmish on the smallest map available to vote for.

Skirmish is the most basic of game modes requiring the least amount of tactical awareness while doing it on a tiny map limits the possitional variables.

Essentially skirmish on small maps requires all of the following

find enemy on tiny map
face enemy
fire alpha
hide
repeat

[Felio]

One time on Crimson Straight I got there first as a Timberwolf and started to back off under a barrage of weapon fire as my team approached the circle behind me. One guy had the gall to be like, "Where are you going??"

[Jables McBarty]

Chuck Jager, on 08 July 2016 - 09:44 AM, said:

If you shoot the mechs in the circle they die and the timer does not go down. All you got to do is swing a ml across everyone to stop the timer. I have only seen one game lost to the timer and there was enough bad on both teams to fill the forums with QQ for a week.

I don't think enough people realize this fact. Not necessary at all to get in the circle.

bukidog, on 08 July 2016 - 10:52 AM, said:

Most heavy pilots don't recognize or appreciate light tactics and how it does contribute to the team. they just see us as running off. Normally that means we are scouting, flanking, harassing. Or being the squirrel that easily distracted enemy pilots chase. All of this is to give the heavy and assault lance the opportunity to push hard against a divided force. When they don't push, then yeah we get killed and your opinion that we were just determined to do our own thing is reinforced.

It's a double-edged sword isn't it? The pilots most likely to chase the squirrel are probably the same ones who think lights are useless.

Though I guess that's a contradiction in terms. If they are chasing after squirrels, isn't it becuase they're afraid of that cheetah oxide locust? Then again, maybe it's just something close that they can shoot at.

All we can do is hope they're on the other team :/

Coolant, on 08 July 2016 - 07:00 AM, said:

of course it isn't, just like it isn't the job of lights to brawl assaults cause they tank like assaults and have way too much firepower...oh wait...

You must be lost, I believe the thread you are looking for is this way.

[ChronoBear]

Darian DelFord, on 07 July 2016 - 06:39 PM, said:

It is NOT the lights job to hold the circle alone while all the heavies and assaults play peek a boo from 500 meters OUT of the circle and miss.

Deal - You do better job of escorting my assault mech and I'll push where ever you want.

Edited by ChronoBear, 08 July 2016 - 01:47 PM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

I think domination matches are best when th green circle is in a "bad" location. One that has little cover and is a bad place to camp.

Why?

It forces teams to fight OVER the territory, not fight IN it. If the green circle is in a bad location, then fighting over the area around it is the main focus and people who try to squat in it get creamed by enemy forces. I like that more than playing "ball in the middle"

[Trauglodyte]

Darian DelFord, on 07 July 2016 - 06:39 PM, said:

It is NOT the lights job to hold the circle alone while all the heavies and assaults play peek a boo from 500 meters OUT of the circle and miss.

Sure lights can get there faster... no problems but we will NOT hold it.... you don't want to lose by being capped out.... then do something about it.

It is the job of the Lights to get to the circle first. Staying in the circle is no longer necessary once it is out of capture mode. Hell, even before that, all you need to do is shoot someone in the circle.

PSA for Domination and other node capturing game play - learn the f'ing mechanics of the game n00bs (not you, Darian)!

[Hodor72]

Also the timer can not go above 1 min.

Someone was around the enemy base so I explained that 1 min was the max and destroying the base was useless since the enemy timer was 1 min. So someone else in an assault slowly goes over and blows up the base . While he was doing this the team was getting slaughtered.

[Malachy Karrde]

SteelBruiser, on 08 July 2016 - 07:05 AM, said:

With that and just out of curiosity, what would you consider actual contribution for a light?

For one, they can forget about so called scouting. With 800 meter sensor range we don't need them to see where the enemy is. Most of the time this is when they die, depriving the team of the meager firepower they carry. Lights would be better employed as Escorts for their larger brethren and to harass enemy forces while staying in support range of the main body. A light running around 2000 meters from everyone else doesn't do anyone a bit of good. None of them carry the kind of firepower they need to do major damage as a sniper either, they are best employed covering the backs of mechs that do sport heavy firepower. Other than the limited harassment role and escort role, I don't have a hell of a lot of use for light mechs. Usually, all they accomplish is running off to scout and getting killed.

[ArmandTulsen]

Lykaon, on 07 July 2016 - 11:29 PM, said:

To elaborate on your PSA.

Firstly the primary asset of light mechs is not armor or firepower it's speed and evasion. If you leave your light mech(s) to hold the domination point you have now also removed the one asset the light mechs have to contribute to your team's efforts. If the light mech is forced to hold a stationary point it's neither speedy or evasive.

Not using all of your team's assets is foolish.

Secondly. And I am surprised so few have figured this out yet.

The way to win domination is to seize the initiative and hold it. And you do not seize anything by pausing to find a nice rock to hide under outside the objective area. You seize and hold the initiative by massing your forces inside the objective circle and uniformly advance and attack forcing the enemy to withdraw from the circle.

So the lights arrive first next your mediums and speedy heavy mechs and lastly assault brawlers (long range support mechs should be the only mechs not in the circle and even then they should probably still be IN)

Once your team has massed it's forces in one place ADVANCE! FOCUS FIRE! and PUSH!

this wins domination.

OOOORRRRR

Have a couple of ECM mechs hiding in the circle and have the other ten flank.

[bukidog]

Malachy Karrde, on 08 July 2016 - 04:52 PM, said:

For one, they can forget about so called scouting. With 800 meter sensor range we don't need them to see where the enemy is. Most of the time this is when they die, depriving the team of the meager firepower they carry. Lights would be better employed as Escorts for their larger brethren and to harass enemy forces while staying in support range of the main body. A light running around 2000 meters from everyone else doesn't do anyone a bit of good. None of them carry the kind of firepower they need to do major damage as a sniper either, they are best employed covering the backs of mechs that do sport heavy firepower. Other than the limited harassment role and escort role, I don't have a hell of a lot of use for light mechs. Usually, all they accomplish is running off to scout and getting killed.

Thank you for illustrating the point from my previous post

[Lykaon]

Coolant, on 08 July 2016 - 07:00 AM, said:

of course it isn't, just like it isn't the job of lights to brawl assaults cause they tank like assaults and have way too much firepower...oh wait...

Maxed armor on a 35 ton light mech is 238 points However effective useful armor for a light is the value of one leg or a side torso for I.S. light mechs. So in actual practice the effective armor between your life and death is around 32 points + structure 16 or 48 health. If you can shoot straight you need to deal under 50 damage to cripple and destroy a light mech.

Realisticly however I will give you a 50% miss chance meaning you need to fire just under 100 damage at the targeted location.

Typically "good" firepower for a light mech would be something like 36 focused damage (6x clan small pulse lasers) or 48 firepower alpha from spread damage ( 6x clan SRM4.)

Let's assume we are fighting against even a lighter weighted assault at 85 tons with it's armor values of around 500. Let's use a Battlemaster 2C with 350 std engine 3 lrg pulse 3 med lasers (not an uncommon build for this chassis).

The average direct fire light mech needs to hit the battlemaster 3 times in the side torso to reduce it's firepower by tearing through the side armor and structure. Let us assume the Battlemaster pilot isn't a doorstop and can twist and evade a bit and give the BLR a 30% health bonus to the targeted side. We now need to land 4 hits on the same torso to take down the BLR's 3x Lrg Pulse lasers.

Conversley the BLR pilot needs to land 1 alpha to cripple the light mech.With the improved evasive ability of the light I figured a 50% miss chance for the BLR pilot. So we will probably need to fire three times to cripple the light.

So I would estimate that the assault pilot needs to fire 3 or 4 times to kill/cripple an attacking light (unless they are such poor shots that they can't hit at all) The attacking light needs to also fire around 4 salvos to kill/cripple the assault pilot.

A light pilot is 1 player in a team of 12 an assault pilot is also 1 player in a team of 12. A player should be worth a player no matter what they pilot.

But let's say the light pilot never misses and will hit always and let's assume the same for the Battlemaster.

Who wins 100% of the time?

Edited by Lykaon, 09 July 2016 - 02:00 AM.

[Lykaon]

Malachy Karrde, on 08 July 2016 - 04:52 PM, said:

For one, they can forget about so called scouting. With 800 meter sensor range we don't need them to see where the enemy is. Most of the time this is when they die, depriving the team of the meager firepower they carry. Lights would be better employed as Escorts for their larger brethren and to harass enemy forces while staying in support range of the main body. A light running around 2000 meters from everyone else doesn't do anyone a bit of good. None of them carry the kind of firepower they need to do major damage as a sniper either, they are best employed covering the backs of mechs that do sport heavy firepower. Other than the limited harassment role and escort role, I don't have a hell of a lot of use for light mechs. Usually, all they accomplish is running off to scout and getting killed.

There is one very important thing that a light 2000m away can be doing.

Preventing the enemy from concentrating their forces and pressing forward. By keeping the enemy turning rearward and drawing attention away from "their larger brethren" A well piloted light can easily reduce the amount of firepower pointed at their team mates by at least 25%-30%.

A very good light pilot will require the enemy to dispatch their own lights to chase them down. This means the actual need to be in proximity to defend the "larger brethren" is vastly reduced because the larger mechs will not be under threat of enemy light mechs in their proximity.And by forcing the engagment to take place well away from the vulnerable (stripped to 1 armor point rear torsos of assault pilots) larger mechs the only mech present to take damage is the most evasive unit you have available. Remember evasion is always better than absorption.

You will run out of armor the enemy never runs out of missing.


Here is the absolute truth about solo quick play from a light mech pilot's perspective.

Most of the time the larger brethren find a nice deep hole to hide in and will not be moved no matter how advantageous of a situation the light mech creates for their team mates.

Light mech swings wide and flanks deep behind enemy lines and manages to get 10 of the 12 mechs in pursuit...no one moves from their cozzy poke pits to take advantage of the 11 vs 2 odds provided by the light mech. If this moment is seized it's a near 100% chance at victory but nope...they found their poke holes to sit in and will not move for anything no matter how much of an advantage is presented to them.

Instead they let the enemy have a 10 vs 1 and politely allow this to transpire without taking a single action to advance their team's goals.

Those larger mechs desirve by vertue of simply selecting heavy or assault class to have every other mech pander to them and deliver targets to their poke hole doorsteps. Be damned if they need to move and fight outside the comfort zone they discovered.

Edited by Lykaon, 09 July 2016 - 02:18 AM.

[LordNothing]

i can usually find a spot that i can hold without being spotted, however im going to return to the group if i start taking significant damage. half the time that i have to do that, the enemy wins cap. move up you mother lovin' cowards!

this is like expecting an assault to lead a charge in fp. you actually want them to survive the gate and be of use as fire support when you have to start hitting objectives or the enemy. using them as a tank is kind of wasteful when everyone should be doing their fair share of tanking.

Edited by LordNothing, 09 July 2016 - 02:24 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

Lykaon, on 08 July 2016 - 12:03 PM, said:

Essentially skirmish on small maps requires all of the following

find enemy on tiny map
face enemy
fire alpha
hide
yell at lights to do your bidding
repeat
getting killed by enemy lights while tunnel vision alphaing the enemy
go to the board and whine until lights get nerfed once more

Corrected the procedure

[Darian DelFord]

Coolant, on 08 July 2016 - 07:00 AM, said:

of course it isn't, just like it isn't the job of lights to brawl assaults cause they tank like assaults and have way too much firepower...oh wait...

Please share with everyone exactly what light mech can tank like an assault. Apparently I have been playing the wrong lights for the last 3 or 4 years

bukidog, on 08 July 2016 - 10:52 AM, said:

Most heavy pilots don't recognize or appreciate light tactics and how it does contribute to the team. they just see us as running off. Normally that means we are scouting, flanking, harassing. Or being the squirrel that easily distracted enemy pilots chase. All of this is to give the heavy and assault lance the opportunity to push hard against a divided force. When they don't push, then yeah we get killed and your opinion that we were just determined to do our own thing is reinforced.

Most heavies and assaults would crumble under the responsibility that lights have to manage during a match

Trauglodyte, on 08 July 2016 - 02:15 PM, said:

It is the job of the Lights to get to the circle first. Staying in the circle is no longer necessary once it is out of capture mode. Hell, even before that, all you need to do is shoot someone in the circle.

PSA for Domination and other node capturing game play - learn the f'ing mechanics of the game n00bs (not you, Darian)!

:pp