23 replies to this topic

[ScarecrowES]

So... I'm writing up a more comprehensive list of changes that are needed to make Faction Play a success, but I wanted to start a seperate topic and let it fester awhile regarding the single most important change that has to be made to FP. I feel this change HAS to be made, first and foremost, before any other changes can even be considered.

Currently, the community is split into two... those playing Quick Play, and those Playing Faction play. Depending on the time period we're looking at, Quick Play accounts for anywhere between half and three-quarters of simultaneous players. To have the actions of more than half of your players not count toward the galaxy map is silly at this stage. This factor, above any other, needs to be fixed.

As such, I suggest folding Quick Play into Faction Play - making it the 3rd play type under the Faction Play banner, behind Invasion and Scouting. Our purpose here is to place all MWO players in the same "bucket" (as PGI says) and to ensure that no player is playing in a way that doesn't effect the Galaxy Map. Having all players under the Faction Play banner will be the single most important step in fixing the FP mode.

How would this work?

First, we'd see a change to the front-end UI. At the top, you'll see menus for Home, Play, Mechlab, Pilot, Career, and Store.

Home menu stays largely the same as it is now, but all menu options for customizing or modifying aspects related to the player/pilot are moved to the Pilot menu.

Mechlab will be unchanged, though adding integration for the new drop deck systems would probably be added.

Pilot menu will now be your one-stop-shop for all options related to customizing the pilot, including skill trees, badges, titles, stats, etc. If it's about YOU, it's in the Pilot menu.

Career (possibly Faction or Unit) will encompass all options related to your allegience and unit, and your pilot's faction progress. This will be the place for all of the Faction and Unit-related content, including access to unit rosters, coffers, etc.

Store menu will be unchanged.

Play will be the new menu with the most important change. Bringing up the Play menu will default you to the Galaxy map, and show you the state of the Inner Sphere. In the top left corner you'll have menus for Map, Invasion, Scouting, and Trials.

Trials would be the new term for Quick Play as incorporated into Faction Play. Trials by combat are ubiquitous in Clan culture, and when the Clans invaded, the Inner Sphere became well-acquainted with this sort of limited, highly-structured form of battle. In fact, the Inner Sphere successfully paused the Clan Invasion for several years after their (admittedly dishonorable) victory at the battles of Tukkayyid (a trial), and the Clan Invasion was finally ended in 3059 through the Great Refusal... a massive set of trials that pitted the best of the Sphere against the best of the Clans.

The scope of combat in Quick Play fits the description of Clan combat trials perfectly, and so we have a very good lore reason to incorporate their results into the fate of the galaxy as a whole.

When you select the Trials menu, you'll be shown various options to select server regions and whatnot, as you do now, as well as see queue percentages and the current statuses of the various factions and how they-re doing under the trials gametype. You'll also see your currently-selected mech and have an option to take it to the mechlab if you want.

To keep Trials in line with the other FP game modes, I'd add a sort of drop deck option. You'd be able to drop in whatever mech you have selected currently, but you'd also be able to pre-select a mech from each weight class that will be saved as a drop deck. If your current mech is a heavy, but the light queue is favorable, you'd have the option to select your pre-picked light mech from the drop deck instead and drop in that.

As an aside, I'd also like to see the option of being able to switch to your pre-selected mech - in the same weight class as the mech you chose to drop with - once you get into the lobby screen. This gives you a secondary mech option for dropping while forcing you to stick with the same class you chose (for team balance purposes). A cost could be applied for the swap if the feeling is that being able to swap at will is too advantageous. Obviously this is merely a hypothetical recommendation, and not necessary for other changes I'm making.

Exactly how do Trials effect the Galaxy Map?

Players' chosen factions are rewarded for their performance in Trials (QP). At the end of every Trials match, each player on the winning team will earn a point for their Faction, and this point will be added to their faction's totals for that FP session. Players will also be awarded a point for reaching a minimum match score threshold - similar to how event rewards are awarded - though this threshold may be higher than for events. Players on the winning side of a match will have the opportunity to earn as many as 2 points for their faction, while players on the losing side still have an opportunity to earn 1 point for theirs if they performed well.

The points awarded to factions from Trials will be added up over the course of a FP session (they will also be added to the score for individual units, to be kept track of for similar purposes). The total points in a given faction will be compared to the points awarded for any factions that are currently at war with that faction within that given FP session. This will result in a score similar to what you see in Scouting - where each opposing faction will have a percentage of the total score between the two.

Exactly what those points are used to do will be up to PGI. Those points could be used to vie for territories directly - whichever faction beats the other in QP gets a certain share of the territories on a planet as a reward. Or they could be used to provide certain other bonuses in the Invasion game mode for the winning faction - like the Scouting mode does. Or the points could be used a different way entirely... something new and clever.

Regardless of how PGI determines to use those points, we ensure that each Trials match players engage in will have a direct effect on the galaxy map. Players who only play Quick Play will still greatly impact the state of their Faction. EVERY player will be playing Faction Play. A faction's success in Trials directly impacts their success in the greater war - just as you'd expect from real combat trials during the Clan Invasion era.

One Banner

So there you have it. Every player fighting under the Faction Play banner. This should double (or better) the total number of players whose actions affect the state of the Inner Sphere. Three different ways to play the same unified game mode. We've managed to incorporate Quick Play into Faction Play without fundementally changing what Quick Play is or how it plays. For those that only play Quick Play, their experience will likely remain unchanged -though many will likely be happy to see their fighting put into context, and be shown a tangible result to that fighting.

Placing all players in the same "bucket" should help to solve many of the population-related problems that plague FP, and give factions and units a wider range of options to take over the Sphere.

The particular implementation I've described is both easy to accomplish and incredibly flexible. The point-for-performance system could be adapted to any number of possible reward scenarios, and can keep up with any changes that might be made to FP's core at later dates.

It also helps to mitigate, if not outright solve, PGI's concern about "too many buckets." As most players logged in at a given time will be throwing themselves into a single large queue where faction affiliation is not a matchmaking concern, it effectively puts MOST players into one bucket.

So... what does the community think?

Edited by ScarecrowES, 08 July 2016 - 03:21 PM.

[Kael Posavatz]

It's an interesting idea but making QP matches 'matter' for the galaxy map doesn't actively address the problems with Faction Play.

The problem with FP is primarily centered on the Invasion game mode. What exactly those problems are (Quirks, lack of, IS weapons, Clan Weapons, heat, alphas, map design, lack of matchmaker, lack of population to make a matchmaker matter, etc.) differ from player to player, but need to be addressed.

Phase III disappointed a lot of people because it essentially put a somewhat attractive frame around a painting, without actually addressing the problems with the painting itself. This proposal, while having its high points, is essentially more of the same.

[ScarecrowES]

Kael Posavatz, on 08 July 2016 - 03:39 PM, said:

It's an interesting idea but making QP matches 'matter' for the galaxy map doesn't actively address the problems with Faction Play.

The problem with FP is primarily centered on the Invasion game mode. What exactly those problems are (Quirks, lack of, IS weapons, Clan Weapons, heat, alphas, map design, lack of matchmaker, lack of population to make a matchmaker matter, etc.) differ from player to player, but need to be addressed.

Phase III disappointed a lot of people because it essentially put a somewhat attractive frame around a painting, without actually addressing the problems with the painting itself. This proposal, while having its high points, is essentially more of the same.

Invasion, as a game type, certainly has to be addressed. In fact, there are myriad other issues of tuning, rewards, and so on that need to be addressed as well.

And I'll have a separate write-up for those particular issues.

The most important thing, by far, is to make sure that the community is actually playing FP. Right now you have over half of your players whose actions don't contribute to the mode AT ALL - even in the most perfunctory and cursory way. If FP is to be the mode PGI wants it to be, then we can't have a situation where most players can play a completely different game entirely.

Solving this problem... and effectively doubling or tripling the number or players affecting the state of the Inner Sphere... allows us to look at the other problems more deeply. Many problems players have with the overarching FP system can be solved merely by throwing thousands of extra players at the mode. For many of the other problems, the new degree of data we'll receive, and the informed opinions of the other half of the community that's not been participating, will help figure out what needs to happen to fix those other issues.

Like I said... fix the population and "buckets" problem first. Trust me, I've got a lot more fixes to come along after, but this is the one that MUST be done, no matter what else is done. There is no fix that works for FP without solving population first. To use an analogy similar to your own, any fix that doesn't first address the population issue would be like trying to rebuild a crumbling house built on a shaky foundation. If you don't shore up the foundation first, it's just going to crumble again.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 08 July 2016 - 03:49 PM.

[Deathlike]

If you're trying to make ALL the gamemodes relevant to CW/FW, I think it's too late.

One of the problems of doing it is that every match matters, and with players being a lot more casual than serious (people complaining about tryhard is an ongoing thing).. there will be a bit more arse hurting to go around.

Remember that it becomes a problem if an IS or Clan faction is running mechs of the opposite tech side, and making it Merc-centric (since technically they can be part of either), it doesn't help the situation either way.

In essence, if PGI had approached FW like this from the beginning, it would have had better traction (although there would be some obvious blowback, but whatever) and restructuring it would require inevitably a lot more work.

[ScarecrowES]

Deathlike, on 08 July 2016 - 03:48 PM, said:

If you're trying to make ALL the gamemodes relevant to CW/FW, I think it's too late.

One of the problems of doing it is that every match matters, and with players being a lot more casual than serious (people complaining about tryhard is an ongoing thing).. there will be a bit more arse hurting to go around.

Remember that it becomes a problem if an IS or Clan faction is running mechs of the opposite tech side, and making it Merc-centric (since technically they can be part of either), it doesn't help the situation either way.

In essence, if PGI had approached FW like this from the beginning, it would have had better traction (although there would be some obvious blowback, but whatever) and restructuring it would require inevitably a lot more work.

Using opposite tech is only an issue in FP - Invasion and Scouting - because we make it so. Realistically, other than for "lore reasons," what other reason is there to not have open tech lines? PGI already tunes balancing to make the tech lines equal, as is necessitated by Quick Play. Seperate tech lines in FP is an arbitary choice at best - and one that has no real impact on the matches at all.

Beyond that, we're not changing anything about how Quick Play works now... taking Quick Play as a Trials system merely applies a lore reason for the game mode to work as it does, and gives a purpose to the mode to MWO as a whole. What other reason could there be to ensure matches between 2 opposed teams of equal skill compositions and mech classes in simple, limited, "wargames" type combat scenarios other than a Clan-style trial by combat? Is that how combat works in Battletech outside of Trials?

There is little involved in making the changes I described. Changing the UI would be simple and take little time at all, and -since we're not changing the fundementals of how Quick Play operates - adding an additional use to the scoring system PGI already uses for event rewards to present Faction performance takes no additional coding or resources over the existing game systems.

It's quick and easy to implement. And for folks who only ever play Quick Play, nothing for them will change except where the Queue button is.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 08 July 2016 - 04:01 PM.

[Deathlike]

ScarecrowES, on 08 July 2016 - 04:00 PM, said:

Using opposite tech is only an issue in FP - Invasion and Scouting - because we make it so. Realistically, other than for "lore reasons," what other reason is there to not have open tech lines? PGI already tunes balancing to make the tech lines equal, as is necessitated by Quick Play. Seperate tech lines in FP is an arbitary choice at best - and one that has no real impact on the matches at all.

Beyond that, we're not changing anything about how Quick Play works now... taking Quick Play as a Trials system merely applies a lore reason for the game mode to work as it does, and gives a purpose to the mode to MWO as a whole. What other reason could there be to ensure matches between 2 opposed teams of equal skill compositions and mech classes in simple, limited, "wargames" type combat scenarios other than a Clan-style trial by combat? Is that how combat works in Battletech outside of Trials?

There is little involved in making the changes I described. Changing the UI would be simple and take little time at all, and -since we're not changing the fundementals of how Quick Play operates - adding an additional use to the scoring system PGI already uses for event rewards to present Faction performance takes no additional coding or resources over the existing game systems.

It's quick and easy to implement. And for folks who only ever play Quick Play, nothing for them will change except where the Queue button is.

I believe the game more often than not struggles to create 2 even teams in the first place. That's generally has been my experience. So I don't believe it would work the way you'd think it would.

[ScarecrowES]

Deathlike, on 09 July 2016 - 12:53 PM, said:

I believe the game more often than not struggles to create 2 even teams in the first place. That's generally has been my experience. So I don't believe it would work the way you'd think it would.

I don't understand how this would have any impact on matchmaking, as nothing has changed about queuing. I'm merely suggesting folding Quick Play under the FP banner, and giving a faction reward outcome to the match - nothing else about how QP works changes.

[KinLuu]

IMHO this is a bad idea.

FP should be able to stand on its own feet. If QP has to suffer to help FP, it would be better to kill of FP completely. Because as far as I am concerned, FP is not the long term future of MWO.

[TheLuc]

quick change to FP, turn it into a PvE thing, Solaris should be for the top pilots and teams to compete

[AnarchyBurger]

I agree there should be some sort of faction play, quick play. Maybe based on invasions+scouting or whatnot. But leave the QP separate.

[ScarecrowES]

KinLuu, on 10 July 2016 - 08:12 AM, said:

IMHO this is a bad idea.

FP should be able to stand on its own feet. If QP has to suffer to help FP, it would be better to kill of FP completely. Because as far as I am concerned, FP is not the long term future of MWO.

Ok... so... I'm guessing from the posts I'm seeing that noone actually READ the proposal. NOTHING changes about how Quick Play plays. It plays no different under my proposal than it does now. The only thing I've changed is that I've put it directly under the FP banner, and gave it end of match scoring that impacts the Inner Sphere map.

If the only mode you play is Quick Play, the only change you'll find under my proposal is where the "Play" button is located. AND, for those who QP, I've added something that improves your quality of life by giving you a drop deck that lets you save one mech of each chassis to help keep ahead of the queues.

I mean... I appreciate debate, but I hope folks will take a few minutes to actually read and understand what's being proposed.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 10 July 2016 - 02:04 PM.

[50 50]

I understand where you are going with this idea to get everyone into the same area so the population is not split. This would in turn improve wait times and allow match making etc.

However, I feel that at the moment quick play offers better variety and options than faction play making it more appealing to the vast majority where Faction Play is a slightly glorified version of it with less maps and modes.

Personally my preference would be to take Assault, Conquest, Domination, Scouting and Invasion, make some adjustments to the capture points and win conditions then combine it all in one epic ongoing conflict. If we consider Quick Play to be the practice area for faction play, it makes sense to use all the elements of the quick play modes and incorporate them into faction play.

[Deathlike]

ScarecrowES, on 09 July 2016 - 04:08 PM, said:

I don't understand how this would have any impact on matchmaking, as nothing has changed about queuing. I'm merely suggesting folding Quick Play under the FP banner, and giving a faction reward outcome to the match - nothing else about how QP works changes.

You have to understand what the MM creates, relative to the active population.

If a particular faction has all the quality players stacked into it, that causes an issue... generally in regards to skill disparity and size. Then it becomes something else.

Imagine that Emp or SJR decide to be part of a faction on a permanent basis. If they decide to queue, they'll more often roll their opponents more often than not, so this could be beneficial to the faction that have them... but terrible if not all factions have units equal to the skill+size (usually such units have a smaller active roster size, but not always).

On the other hand, Mercstar is one of the largest active units (probably not so much these days). Assuming that they reasonably win more often than not, the "success" of a particular faction can be determined significantly just based on a Merc's unit size.


I can probably name a few factions (both IS and Clan) that have a naturally terrible discrepancy of skill (and indirectly population). We already have people that don't give a damn about winning (staying in lower Tiers intentionally), and while this isn't entirely a large group - adding groups that don't give a damn about success, skews the numbers a bit.

I mean, you could introduce such a thing, but you have to put a lot of careful consideration on how to incentivise or punish players for "not playing to win" - remember, you are making "every match matters" to be a thing.

There's a reason why at times people wanting a non-ranked queue - because the fear of running sub-optimal mechs and builds (or just trying to get better as a new player) in an already competitive environment is not conducive to intended results.


I don't care either way if this was introduced, but I'm only expressing how flawed it can be.

Edited by Deathlike, 10 July 2016 - 07:19 PM.

[ScarecrowES]

Deathlike, on 10 July 2016 - 07:15 PM, said:

You have to understand what the MM creates, relative to the active population.

If a particular faction has all the quality players stacked into it, that causes an issue... generally in regards to skill disparity and size. Then it becomes something else.

Imagine that Emp or SJR decide to be part of a faction on a permanent basis. If they decide to queue, they'll more often roll their opponents more often than not, so this could be beneficial to the faction that have them... but terrible if not all factions have units equal to the skill+size (usually such units have a smaller active roster size, but not always).

On the other hand, Mercstar is one of the largest active units (probably not so much these days). Assuming that they reasonably win more often than not, the "success" of a particular faction can be determined significantly just based on a Merc's unit size.


I can probably name a few factions (both IS and Clan) that have a naturally terrible discrepancy of skill (and indirectly population). We already have people that don't give a damn about winning (staying in lower Tiers intentionally), and while this isn't entirely a large group - adding groups that don't give a damn about success, skews the numbers a bit.

I mean, you could introduce such a thing, but you have to put a lot of careful consideration on how to incentivise or punish players for "not playing to win" - remember, you are making "every match matters" to be a thing.

There's a reason why at times people wanting a non-ranked queue - because the fear of running sub-optimal mechs and builds (or just trying to get better as a new player) in an already competitive environment is not conducive to intended results.


I don't care either way if this was introduced, but I'm only expressing how flawed it can be.

I can appreciate the sentiment here. I think though that this concern is no larger in a QP folded into FP than it already is with FP being wholely separate. And in fact, I feel it's actually less of a concern with QP folded into FP.

If you look at the current play state in FP, many of the actual groups you see playing are fairly skilled, competent, and experienced players, while most pugs tend to be the opposite. In Quick Play, you have all types. There are quite a few people who never step into FP, and yet are skilled, competent, and experienced. As group and solo queues are separate, the particular influence of large skilled units is pressed only against other large skilled units. In solo it's largely a free-for-all.

The population of unaffiliated players, or players who simply fly solo in QP will be many times higher than the number of players being fielded in groups by large units at any given time. By rolling QP into FP, we should actually be diminishing the direct influence of large units, and putting it more into the hands of individual players. In this way, players whose actions would never have an impact on the game prior to these changes actually get to see some tangible result for their play - and this represents a much larger percentage of the population than all of the large active units combined.

In terms of the concept of "not playing to win," I think this is something that will simply balance itself out. I figure one's desire to win is not a trait inherent to any particular faction.

And as far as faction population concerns go, there are ways to influence which factions "unaffiliated" players will sign on to. More can be done than what PGI currently does... but that's a subject for a different post.

[Kremk]

@ ScarecrowES Nice post!

My experience with FP, all be it minor, is that it takes way to long to get into a match. I don't mind losing a lot to good units but if I have to wait for an hour AND lose in no time than it becomes uninteresting fast.
So I think that combining QP and FP is a good thing, and the way the ScarecrowES suggests sounds good.
Because everybody is in the same 'action' screen other people might be more tempted to try the other modes and thus increasing the population in those buckets, thus lowering wait times.

Like Keal Posavatz already said, the Invasion mode it self is broken, but if more people would try to play that mode it might get more attention and as result be updated/fixed sooner.
Most problems given by the other posters aren't really problems in my opinion and/or would balance themselves out.

Though maybe a small addition to the point system?
Instead of giving every player the same impact to the faction points they'll collect after a trial match (QP match), make it also based on their tier. That way a casual t5 player only gives x1/2 points, while a t1 would get x2. The numbers here are of course just for example and in no way based on something.

Now just hope that some dev reads this thread and can convince everybody

Edited by Kremk, 12 July 2016 - 12:52 AM.

[Kin3ticX]

uhh how do quickplay matches work for CW if its mix faction and mix tech?

[ScarecrowES]

Kin3ticX, on 12 July 2016 - 12:53 AM, said:

uhh how do quickplay matches work for CW if its mix faction and mix tech?

It's all in the OP.

TLDR version?

Your performance in QP nets you points for your faction. Those points are weighed against the points accumulated by factions you are opposing in that session of FP. What rewards you receive from that point difference is up to PGI. Maybe territority directly as in Invasion... maybe bonuses like from Scouting. Maybe something totally new. QP matches then contribute directly to the state of the map, without altering how QP works in any way.

[ScarecrowES]

Kremk, on 12 July 2016 - 12:52 AM, said:

@ ScarecrowES Nice post!

My experience with FP, all be it minor, is that it takes way to long to get into a match. I don't mind losing a lot to good units but if I have to wait for an hour AND lose in no time than it becomes uninteresting fast.
So I think that combining QP and FP is a good thing, and the way the ScarecrowES suggests sounds good.
Because everybody is in the same 'action' screen other people might be more tempted to try the other modes and thus increasing the population in those buckets, thus lowering wait times.

Like Keal Posavatz already said, the Invasion mode it self is broken, but if more people would try to play that mode it might get more attention and as result be updated/fixed sooner.
Most problems given by the other posters aren't really problems in my opinion and/or would balance themselves out.

Though maybe a small addition to the point system?
Instead of giving every player the same impact to the faction points they'll collect after a trial match (QP match), make it also based on their tier. That way a casual t5 player only gives x1/2 points, while a t1 would get x2. The numbers here are of course just for example and in no way based on something.

Now just hope that some dev reads this thread and can convince everybody

Invasion certainly has to be addressed. I've always felt that this is a horrible mode, and basing the entirety of the Faction Play experience around a fundementally flawed and broken mode is the root of why FP has never been able to overtake QP for the share of players queuing.

However, I've also always felt that dividing the player base in two was a fundementally bad idea in the first place. The plan was always to have FP be THE mode that defines FP. And yet, QP still remains something apart from the "main" mode of the game. The easiest solution is to roll QP directly into FP... so no matter HOW you're playing, you're playing QP.

Rolling QP into FP doesn't fix Invasion. But it does fix a host of other problems that comes with not enough players playing FP consistently. Doubling or tripling your simultaneous player base. One of the biggest problems it fixes is the perception that FP is the domain of large units, and a place where the little guy can't make an impact. It sets the entry bar lower, and makes it much easier to participate... in fact, now it's impossible NOT to.

Once we get everyone participating, we can look at a host of other issues... many of which I have suggestions for.

Pacing is one problem, how territory is passed back and forth is another. How participation vs ownership works. And perhaps even the holy grail... reducing buckets for matchmaking without reducing factions or limiting their importance.

But first and foremost, we've got to get each and every player in the game FIRST. As it is impossible to fix a game if noone is playing.

[Lehmund]

AnarchyBurger, on 10 July 2016 - 01:41 PM, said:

I agree there should be some sort of faction play, quick play. Maybe based on invasions+scouting or whatnot. But leave the QP separate.

Yes.

However, I also like the OP's idea as well, as a third game mode to influence the Inner Sphere map.

One can also envision having a QP variant of Invasion mode that doesn't influence the War, to practice and train in.

IMO the most pressing concern in improving FW is in the maps. They need to be bigger and with fewer or no choke points allowing for different tactics to be used to win, and giving a better shot to less coordinated teams to perform well. If that happens, an extra bonus is that Long Tom would be less powerful as a more spread out team becomes more viable on larger maps like the QP ones.

Imagine putting an Omega cannon where the Assault base is on Alpine and setting up generators as Conquest cap points roughly 500 m from Omega (still somewhat around it).

All of a sudden, attack and defence is really interesting, and your fast light mechs can get potentially really useful depending on strategies, and so do lurm boats long range builds etc....

Sounds like fun to me!

[Danjo San]

Quick Play, aside from private lobby is the only place where you can run mixtech. and it should remain that way!