39 replies to this topic

[Armored Yokai]

Seeing how XL is basically a death sentence for I.S Battlemechs It would be best to give XL survivability for some IS mechs in the form of a quirk. This list of mechs would potentially include mech variants that already come stock with an XL or the Charger.

If the mechs or mech variants do get an XL pass they should also have the same amount of buffs as a normal clan mech or have their bonuses reduced reduced by a certain percent. This way, they wouldn't be so overloaded and there really shouldn't be much issue. If the XL gets blown off, even more de-buffs can be applied so that they remain balanced.

[justcallme A S H]

If you make IS XL the same as cXL you invalidate LFE.

[Armored Yokai]

justcallme A S H, on 03 October 2021 - 02:31 AM, said:

If you make IS XL the same as cXL you invalidate LFE.

Which is why we don't make it the same as cXL, We only make it so select variants and specific mechs have that survivability and the damage of losing a side torso is much more heavier than losing a side torso on an LFE. Plus I.S weapons are already Large to the point you aren't able to stick a weapon or a certain amount of it onto an XL whereas with an LFE you can stick a AC20 or 2 mrm30 or whatever onto it.


If LFE invalidation is still such a concern and an actual drawback we can always add Debuff quirks to the mechs that have XL survivability that make the XL easier to crit or some other balance change.

[martian]

Armored Yokai, on 03 October 2021 - 01:56 AM, said:

give XL survivability for some IS mechs in the form of a quirk.
...

Armored Yokai, on 03 October 2021 - 04:18 AM, said:

....
We only make it so select variants and specific mechs have that survivability
....

The would mean that nobody would play other variants than those hyper-quirked ones.

I remember that we have been there before: Do you remember how PGI quirked ridiculously TDR-5SS (that infamous MPL quirk). All other Thunderbolts had been forgotten, the only Thunderbolt model you met in the game was the quirked one.

And exactly "this" would happen here.

Edited by martian, 03 October 2021 - 04:31 AM.

[Armored Yokai]

martian, on 03 October 2021 - 04:31 AM, said:

The would mean that nobody would play other variants than those hyper-quirked ones.
And exactly "this" would happen here.

That is Untrue. I'll explain why, remember when I said

Armored Yokai, on 03 October 2021 - 01:56 AM, said:

If the mechs or mech variants do get an XL pass they should also have the same amount of buffs as a normal clan mech or have their bonuses reduced reduced by a certain percent.

You know how Clan mechs have little to no quirks? Thats why we do the same for the mechs that have the XL survivability quirk.

For example about Variant picking. We have an Atlas AS7-D which is a strong powerhouse perfect for brawls that doesn't have an XL pass while on the contrary we have a AS7-BH Boars Head that would have an XL quirk, people will still prefer to take the AS7-D because of that brawling potential. A boars head is not able to mount a AC20 or x2 MR30s onto it's loadout but instead 1 Gauss and 1 MRM40 and 6 MPLs and not only that its quirks have been reduced in exchange for XL survival.

If this update were to happen it would be a simple case of trading durability for speed and some potential firepower loss for some mechs. Not only that but if this were applied to I.S Omnimechs (if they release) they would basically be Clan mechs but less tonnage and space available

[ScrapIron Prime]

Armored Yokai said:

1633266443[/url]' post='6428269']
You know how Clan mechs have little to no quirks? Thats why we do the same for the mechs that have the XL survivability quirk.

Why do people love clan mechs? Because despite not having quirks, they can pack on more equipment. If you tell me that I can have 5 extra tons on an IS mech at nearly no penalty, I will always take that mech, quirks be darned. 5 tons is worth more than a 10 percent boost to some bit of equipment.

so that’s a solid “no” vote from me too,

Edited by ScrapIron Prime, 03 October 2021 - 05:25 AM.

[Armored Yokai]

ScrapIron Prime, on 03 October 2021 - 05:24 AM, said:

Why do people love clan mechs? Because despite not having quirks, they can pack on more equipment.

The equipment they can mount is much smaller and does more damage or they like clan mechs more, let's not forget they have omni mechs and not a lot of standard mechs. but even then some of these clan mechs have HSL quirks like the super nova or huge omnipods where you can mix and match to get what you want or just the higher mounts on a mech.
You can literally mount MUCH more on a rifleman IIC than a HBR but people still choose the HBR because of the sizing and higher mounts and more weapons because of the omni pods.

I.S gets 14 Critical Slots for Endo and DHS is 3 Slots and having an XL would make you less likely to carry bigger weapons on some mechs and some of those weapons are already bigger and heavier than clan weapons and don't do as much.

We must also remember not everyone thinks like you and I. So be it as it may with you choosing the XL survivability mechs more but people will always take a different variant.

[martian]

Armored Yokai, on 03 October 2021 - 05:07 AM, said:

That is Untrue. I'll explain why, remember when I said
You know how Clan mechs have little to no quirks? Thats why we do the same for the mechs that have the XL survivability quirk.

Yes, and people still use them despite having no (significant) quirks because that Clan XL engine (i.e. not getting killed after the side torso loss) is so good that it is worth it. Yes, I know that Clan weapons play their role too, etc.

You would create two categories of IS 'Mechs: Those that die on the side torso loss, and those that do not. The players would realize quickly what specially quirked 'Mechs to take or to avoid.

Armored Yokai, on 03 October 2021 - 05:07 AM, said:

For example about Variant picking. We have an Atlas AS7-D which is a strong powerhouse perfect for brawls that doesn't have an XL pass while on the contrary we have a AS7-BH Boars Head that would have an XL quirk, people will still prefer to take the AS7-D because of that brawling potential. A boars head is not able to mount a AC20 or x2 MR30s onto it's loadout but instead 1 Gauss and 1 MRM40 and 6 MPLs and not only that its quirks have been reduced in exchange for XL survival.

If this update were to happen it would be a simple case of trading durability for speed and some potential firepower loss for some mechs. Not only that but if this were applied to I.S Omnimechs (if they release) they would basically be Clan mechs but less tonnage and space available

Imagine that your Boar's Head would have 26 more tons (the difference between standard and XL 400 reactor) to play with, thanks its survivable XL engine quirk. Do you think that the players would ignore it, other quirks or not? Do you think that they would not come quickly with some viable brawling loadout?

[The6thMessenger]

I honestly think that XL mechanic of death by single torso loss is an awful mechanic as a whole, as it is translated to MechWarrior as FPS game. BattleTech and TT is based around RNG, FPS is not. Don't make survivable XL as a quirk, rework the distinction between engines as a whole.

Maybe give STD engines +30 structure. I mean since when was the last time we saw Standard-Engine clan battlemech? Or standard IS light? It's just those niche builds like quad-gauss kodiak -- or 2x UAC10 + 2x UAC20 kodiak that killed me one time. Because there's just little worth in zombieying these days, not with clan tech -- CXL is basically no-brainer. IS has a bit more use with IS because it can free up slots, and major weapons like HGR needs it -- LB20X needing it is dumb though.

Definitely make XL Engine torso-survivable, but maybe acts like being legged that you are reduced 40KPH or below, and one more torso or leg loss could kill you. Sure better than just that instant death that would deter such use with many mechs, like the King Crab.

But that's just me.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 03 October 2021 - 06:02 AM.

[Armored Yokai]

martian, on 03 October 2021 - 05:49 AM, said:

You would create two categories of IS 'Mechs: Those that die on the side torso loss, and those that do not. The players would realize quickly what specially quirked 'Mechs to take or to avoid.

Which is the point, minus the avoiding other variants part. If you include the balance changes I've talked about such as being limited to 1 variant that comes with XL. We are essentially making the XL Variants more viable! We aren't cutting out variants and throwing them away, but rather making them strong. I AM aware some mechs have not even been buffed and the XL variant will get buffed before them which is why we tune the other variants before doing so. Even with all the chatter, the other variants with super quirks would still be chosen because if you include the balance changes I've spoken about, you'd be debuffing and balancing the XL to where an LFE is still a good option.

martian, on 03 October 2021 - 05:49 AM, said:

Imagine that your Boar's Head would have 26 more tons (the difference between standard and XL 400 reactor) to play with, thanks its survivable XL engine quirk. Do you think that the players would ignore it, other quirks or not? Do you think that they would not come quickly with some viable brawling loadout?

They will come up with a viable brawling loadout but it still wouldnt be the BEST option as we are only making the boars head a faster but not as durable Atlas. honestly


This XL update would basically cause all XL variants to be the faster but not as durable option of the mechs

[RickySpanish]

IS XL is fine, it's a trade-off you make to fit bigger guns or just a bigger engine for more speed and free heatsink slots. In 'Mechs that have big side torsos an XL might be a death sentence but guess what? You DON'T put an XL in those 'Mechs! Right now XL works great in Lights, many Mediums and some Heavies - e.g. Back Knight. It has a definite niche and there's no need to quirk some 'Mechs to avoid ST death when the correct solution - LFE, exists. Besides which, just how much more severe would you want to make a side torso loss? It's already extremely detrimental in LFE and Clan XL.

[Nightbird]

XL is fine, please give clan XXL.

[1453 R]

The Engine Bugbear is one of the biggest balancing hurdles for post-Clan BattleTech MechWarrior balancing in a multiplayer game, and probably one of the biggest single contributing factors to 'Mech Dads constantly demanding "FOURTH SUCCESSION WAR, STOCK 'MECHS ONLY! DX" all the time. The Clan XL engine is essentially a piece of miracle technology by tabletop rules/standards, but in TT it's not as bad because of engine crits. An open CT in TT is even more of a death sentence than it is in MWO because your engine can get critted out and you end up dead no matter what your armor/structure values are.

Engine crits are an actively terrible idea in MWO because it essentially means your actual 'health', i.e. how much fight you have left in the tank, becomes an invisible guessing game. The U.I. doesn't tell you how many engine crit slots you have left, and having your 'Mech pop because somebody rolled a lucky crit and scooped out your engine while you still have most of your structure left is a great way to ensure people stop playing your game.

Buuuut...that means the whole 'three crits and your done' rule from tabletop is weird and janky to fitz with. It works-ish for STD vs. XL balance on the Sphere side because the XL engine gives you enormous benefits in saved weight at the cost of effectively tripling your 'killed' box. People did that with some 'Mechs and not others, and nobody ever really agreed on which 'Mechs were able to tolerate XL and which weren't save for "all lights XL, most assaults STD", which is the sign that the balance was working.

But you can't do that with Clan engines. The entire Clan tech base, all of their designs, all of their machines, were built with the idea that their XL engines could take a shoulder blowout and keep chugging. The entirety of the Clanner touman is built on that assumption, and if you take it away and say "XL IS XL IS XL, LOSE A SHOULDER AND DIE DX", the entire Clan tech base becomes more-or-less nonfeasible since virtually every machine they create uses an XL engine. Most of them are hard-locked, and Clan 'Mechs are kinda known for having godawful geo. Name me one single player that would run a Warhawk with "XL IS XL SHOULDERS ARE DEATH DX" rules in place. Don't worry. I won't bother waiting for you.

So the cXL needs to perform the way it performed in TT...but that blows the whole engine thing open. cXL gets to have its cake and eat it too, with the huge weight savings of an XL and most of the durability of a STD 'Mech. yes, you don't get to zombie stick with nothing but a CT, but let's be real - you can't fit meaningful armaments in just-the-CT of any 'Mech on the Sphere side and even Clanners have exactly ONE "STD Zombie" valid 'Mech - the MADD-IIC with two ERLL in the chin. Regardless. The Clan XL causes problems because Clan 'Mechs can survive and fight almost as well as Sphere STD 'mechs (quirks and geo notwithstanding) save with the speed and firepower of XL platforms. The LFE isn't a solution, either - it remains strictly inferior to the cXL. It's a problem Piranha wasn't able to solve even when they were still pretending to care about this game and actively developing it.

Saying "certain Sphere 'Mechs can do the Clammer thing but others can't" is a great way to piss everybody off, and also probably not something that can be done with the quirk system. It's not a solution. The only real solution would be to start from scratch and divorce oneself from TT implementation entirely, find a new balance paradigm to orient around...but the ship has long since sailed on that one. Saying "STDs give you a bunch of structure!" doesn't help because literally no one cares about structure durability. Thirty extra points of structure is one decent hit from a heavy or assault 'Mech, and open structure gets cleaned out of components by rampant machine-gunner lights anyways. Any of the ways I can think of to try and redress the issue would require engineering resources, and frankly I don't know if they'd even work. But iXL quirks aren't the way to go, nor is blanket structure buffs nobody cares about.

[Armored Yokai]

RickySpanish, on 03 October 2021 - 06:18 AM, said:

It's already extremely detrimental in LFE and Clan XL.

Well wouldnt it be better if there was an option of being alive but suffering and able to fight instead of being dead?

The6thMessenger, on 03 October 2021 - 06:01 AM, said:

Don't make survivable XL as a quirk, rework the distinction between engines as a whole.
Maybe give STD engines +30 structure.

That would be difficult to work out and would need a lot of time to discuss

[martian]

Armored Yokai, on 03 October 2021 - 06:12 AM, said:

Which is the point, minus the avoiding other variants part. If you include the balance changes I've talked about such as being limited to 1 variant that comes with XL. We are essentially making the XL Variants more viable! We aren't cutting out variants and throwing them away, but rather making them strong. I AM aware some mechs have not even been buffed and the XL variant will get buffed before them which is why we tune the other variants before doing so. Even with all the chatter, the other variants with super quirks would still be chosen because if you include the balance changes I've spoken about, you'd be debuffing and balancing the XL to where an LFE is still a good option.

The players would pick up the most optimal variant, as they did with TDR-5SS, while ignoring the rest..

Armored Yokai, on 03 October 2021 - 06:12 AM, said:

They will come up with a viable brawling loadout but it still wouldnt be the BEST option as we are only making the boars head a faster but not as durable Atlas. honestly

With 26 tons more of weapons and equipment it would kill the opposing 'Mech so quickly that its lack of armor quirks would play only a small role.

[Armored Yokai]

1453 R, on 03 October 2021 - 06:30 AM, said:

Saying "certain Sphere 'Mechs can do the Clammer thing but others can't" is a great way to piss everybody off, and also probably not something that can be done with the quirk system. It's not a solution. The only real solution would be to start from scratch and divorce oneself from TT implementation entirely, find a new balance paradigm to orient around...but the ship has long since sailed on that one.

Unfortunately that is true. the entire quirk system did help to make mechs viable since the introduction of clan mechs in MWO and it is a band aid. This XL quirk honestly only makes the band aid bigger and the logic about Saying "certain Sphere 'Mechs can do the Clammer thing but others can't" can apply to certain Sphere 'Mechs can do the Inner Sphere thing but others can't"
when you apply Crit chance receiving reduction to LFE and STD

[justcallme A S H]

You know what is good quirk for IS XL?

Torso twisting

[Armored Yokai]

martian, on 03 October 2021 - 06:44 AM, said:

With 26 tons more of weapons and equipment it would kill the opposing 'Mech so quickly that its lack of armor quirks would play only a small role.

this entire XL survivability the ultimate mech choice really isn't what you make it out to be, as you still have to deal with hardpoints, weapon size, critical slot amount and player preference. The other variants wouldn't be ignored if you applied the balancing that was discussed and not a lot of variants come with XL and they wouldn't change a whole lot to the point where they are super mechs, you'd still have builds that would be better on an LFE or STD than you would an XL

justcallme A S H, on 03 October 2021 - 06:54 AM, said:

You know what is good quirk for IS XL?

Torso twisting

Jokes aside you can always go for a low blow they can't torso twist a crotch shot.
It's really funny when they torso twist protecting their CT and you can just give them a low blow

[The6thMessenger]

1453 R, on 03 October 2021 - 06:30 AM, said:

Saying "STDs give you a bunch of structure!" doesn't help because literally no one cares about structure durability. Thirty extra points of structure is one decent hit from a heavy or assault 'Mech, and open structure gets cleaned out of components by rampant machine-gunner lights anyways.

Well, that's one EXTRA hit from a heavy and assault mech, could be a big difference on certain situations. And with it being a flat bonus, it's arguably a bigger boon to those lights than it is for the heavier mechs. I'm not saying that it would be a make-or-break difference, but it's something given the context that we're trying to do -- it's an advantage of some form to incentivise use, but not game breaking, which is good.

1453 R, on 03 October 2021 - 06:30 AM, said:

The only real solution would be to start from scratch and divorce oneself from TT implementation entirely, find a new balance paradigm to orient around...but the ship has long since sailed on that one.

Armored Yokai, on 03 October 2021 - 06:32 AM, said:

That would be difficult to work out and would need a lot of time to discuss

Yeah well, I can dream.

It's PGI's choice to keep this a problem, and they can stop anytime.

[martian]

Armored Yokai, on 03 October 2021 - 07:02 AM, said:

this entire XL survivability the ultimate mech choice really isn't what you make it out to be, as you still have to deal with hardpoints, weapon size, critical slot amount and player preference. The other variants wouldn't be ignored if you applied the balancing that was discussed and not a lot of variants come with XL and they wouldn't change a whole lot to the point where they are super mechs, you'd still have builds that would be better on an LFE or STD than you would an XL

The entire XL survivability AND higher speed AND the option to carry 26 tons more of weapons and equipment. "That" is the difference.