294 replies to this topic

[Nightshade24]

InspectorG, on 17 July 2016 - 01:56 PM, said:

4(old)MG+1SL would be OP...at 100m.

MWO tends to play at 500m.

So yeah, you wanna argue the 1V is a MG boat why the hell didnt PGI give it MG quirks and the Lazer ones to a different Locust?

Why hasnt the previous E quirks been transplanted to another Locust variant? 3V, maybe?

Was it because AT THAT TIME they realized MGs are crap and 1E NEEDED to do something big?

So by your logic we will get A MG Locust(1V), A half MG Locust(3V), Another half MG Locust(PB), a SRM knife fighter(S), a lazer knife fighter(3M), a ML poker(E)/SPL knife fighter, and a half lazer/SRM(1M).

Such variety. Good thing most roles in MWO are built on sub300m Brawling, right?

I would be interested in Machine Guns if they WERENT CoF 100m face huggers.

Instead ill just use the Locust S and have the tactical option to Front Load my damage and break off instead of face hugging to maybe rack up the damage on the component i want.


"Any Locust can mount a Large Laser..."
True, BUT you omitted the advantage of the 50% reduction in FACETIME using a weapon that has a giant blue line pointing to the shooter in which decent players would target that spot.
Perhaps you want a PPC Locust?

A ERLL Locust with that much Duration Reduction was a pretty unique mech. PGI you know, COULD have just stripped it of its structure quirks, maybe even nerf structure, and leave a unique 20ton sniper.

And yes, you never mentioned BT rules.

But if you have been paying attention you would realize a lot of PGI's balance problems stem from:
A. Not understanding BT rules.
B. Not understanding the various roles of weapons in BT and their relation to the BT crit system.
C. Not knowing what BT rules to use(mechbuilding), which to ignore, and when to create new rules that fit a FPS.
D. The various arguments FOR or AGAINST using Lore in all of the above.

Stock builds would be great, but it would fail due to the crit-system. A good half the mechs would suffer from under-ammo. Players would cry about too short TTK because most BT mech only ran half armor - an advantage for the Goods, a penalty for the Bads. Goods would saw off ST/CT faster than now. Bads would bombard Russ's Twitter.
PGI said they cant run MM that would have to balance 12 IS mechs vs 9 Clan(or whatever) and PRS cant even.

With Stock builds it would be Warhawk Prime all day. And Locusts with 4 leg armor.

I love Stock but it wont work except for the few, like me, willing to adjust to the harsher 'environment'.

The reason they didn't give decent MG quirks is because they need to spend time coding new quirks for a weapon system they already think is borderline OP.

The literal only guirk for machine guns right now is ROF, and that also increases ammo consumption and fire accuracy.
There is no quirks to give machine guns longer range, less spread, higher crit chance, etc. Ballistic generic quirks do not affect PPC's, and Targeting computers from memory doesn't either.
The same reason the Raven 3L didn't get it's ECM quirks yet is the same reason the Locust 1V doesn't have proper MG quirks.
However it may not be as simple as adding a line of code/ a value to it like most quirks, still doesn't feminist the fact that it would be highly appreciated for not only the Locust 1V but all other Machine gun boats out there and those that do not boat it.
Shadowcat P, Spider 5K, Battlemaster G, Timberwolf, Mist Lynx, Cicada, etc. I see no problem in these mechs recieving these quirks and more viarirty in the quirks can help differenciate machine gun mechs/ omnipods, you want more accuracy or faster fire rate, etc...

The Machine guns are not crap (to PGI's standards). If it was you would think they would have buffed it, no? I mean the PPC's, Flamers, pulse lasers, LRM's, NARC, AMS, AC 10's, LBX 10's, etc got buffed in recent times. So tell me why PGI didn't buff the ER medium laser, the machine gun, the Streak SRM 6, or Gauss rifle recently. That was rhetorical, it's because those are boarderline (if not are) overpowered to their eyes.
(However arguably the machine gun is apparently falsely accused, apparently some Macro trick allowed Machine guns to achieve a much much higher rate of fire causing assaults frontally be cored and killed in a few seconds. However I think that is patched by now, Machine guns never recovered)
In fact: it's most often the more powerful weapons that never get quirked often (in PGI's eyes)
Why do you think there is no Large pulse laser/ ER medium laser quirks on a timberwolf? (or any quirk targeting these specifically on any clan chassis), or any strong gauss rifle quirks?
Meanwhile weaker weapons often get quirked heavily and half the time the end resault is still nto favourable for some people such as the PPC's.

Look at all other mechs that apparently are leaning so very heavily on there few energy hardpoints to do anything good.
Catapult C4? Oh hey look at the amazing energy quirks...

ENERGY COOLDOWN: 20.00 %
ENERGY RANGE: 10.00 %
LASER DURATION: -20.00 %

Huh, I see a lack of 50's here.

What about the UM-R60?
RATE OF HEAT LOSS: 18.00 %
ENERGY COOLDOWN: 10.00 %
LASER DURATION: -10.00 %

Nothing above 20 here.



Etc, there's a few acceptions, the Spider 5K and Cicada 3C. Which obviously throws the finger everywhere for inconsistency....
However 'Mechs in these conditions are typically reserved for lighter mechs. Because if half of the mechs I listed were heavier, it would be AC's and gauss rifles they can mount instead. Most energy weapons are universally believed to be well and good, some ballistics have controversy (MG's, LBX's, UAC's, AC 2's), while MIssiles in general is controvershal, ranging from the spread (SRM and LRM), to the lock ons (SSRM's and LRM's). So to you when you look at the Locust 1V you see just a single hardpoint because you know you can't take to easily a pair of AC 5's, especially paired with a PPC, and you see machine guns as no option.
If you ask me that's your personal fault you simply ignore 80% of the hardpoints on a 'Mech. Why should the mech randomly have quirks to try to compensate for your singular cherry picked hardpoint to be overpowered?
Why not give the Atlas D-DC a 50% laser quirks too for those people who hate using AC 20's and SRM's so that they can wiggle around with twin large pulse lasers or what ever.

If you quite dislike the Locust 1V after ignoring it's native traits, why are you so eager to want it to be quirked into something you want to use? There are 3 other locusts in game to get your 3 for mastery. two of which are energy boats and another being a hero. The commando is more suitable for running around with a large laser Could even have a back up medium laser.
or perhaps you wish the (now in)famous ER PPC Comando or something. However at about the same speed is the Spider, more armour, jumpjets, can easily handle ER large lasers/ ER PPC's/ Large pulse lasers.
I do not have an idea why you would preffer these quirks for the 1V but while you so obviously have issues with it.

However if compairing machine gun quirk rights and how the laser quirks are over powered may not get you the picture.
Let me use the same sort of statement you used earlier... how does the locust 1V fair compared to the other locusts?

Well sorry to say but automatically the 3M and 1E fail automatically, 6 small lasers/ 5 small pulse lasers/ 5 medium lasers can not compete with 1 largep pulse lasser at all. This has longer range, is heat neutral, better DPS, shorter beam duration most of the time, due to being in the CT you can skip arm day... etc.
All we got to compare now is the Locust 3V and the missile ones... which... many people argue missiles is hard to use on locust at times. Not many people like SRM's until you have around 3+ SRM 6's with artemis on a 'Mech with good ammo.
Locust 3S is in the same boat as t he Locust 1V as far as you should be aware. Why doesn't this deserve your 50% quirk choices?
What about the 3V and 1M that has 2 energy in the CT? obviously having less quirked 2 medium pulse lasers/ medium lasers is not going to make it better or equal to the over quirked large pulse laser CT right? Why shouldn't these two chassis get the same quirks here? Mathematically the 1V is the best choice right now. The only thing that beats it is the slight dps advantage of the 4 machine gun medium pulse 1V and the Locust 3S with 4 SRM 2's and 1 medium lasers (short term) DPS and Alpha.

Of course... there's the whole idea the Locust 1V is over powered and it not only ruins other ubilds on that mech but out does all other competiting and non-competing locusts. Arguably the commandoes too but they have greater armour.


Also Warhawk rules stock? pffft. We all know who would rule stock...

Stormcrow Prime is already boarderline meta with 2 large lasers and 3 er medium lasers. Was meta at a point too.
Of course... you also got the unique factor that most mechs will have weaker rear armour... meaning light mechs can be much more ddeadlier especially to the naturally thin armour of the rears of clan mechs... then you also got the fact that the hunchback IIC's twin UAC 20's or the Urbanmech's AC 20 (which is no longer a joke, ~34 kph is now not that far behind half the assault mechs out there and most lights dropped speed by nearly 50 kph. It can catch up now easerily.) but then again, from what I hear about stock mech mondays event run by members of the community the kings of the stock world is centurions and hunchbacks. With the occasional Mauler brute forcing it's way in.

but to be honest I do not want a stock MechWarrior: Online. Not over the regular one we have now or over the freedom of Mech lab editing. I personally love the idea of quirks and such. It makes 'Mechs unique and vary between variants.
Before the Hunchback 4G is a stupid decision to buy over a 4H, the 4H can do the same builds but better...
Then you got the shadowhawk which does the same builds, faster, jumpjets, and more... it even makes the hero hunchback cry.
Quirks also allow powerful mechs to be allowed into MW: O... things like the Hunchback 4N may be considered now. I do not mind the quirks on most of the Locusts, however 50% quirks are rediculous by all measures. There's a difference between a large pulse laser and somehow the inner sphere inventing the Ultra Large Pulse Laser before they can even make a UAC 2 or UAC 10.... Do not even get me started on the days the Dragon used to basically have a jamless Rotary Autocannon 5...

[BabyCakes666]

is PGI going to stop nerfing now

[BaconTWOfourACTUAL]

Blue Pheonix, on 13 July 2016 - 02:05 PM, said:

The locust does not need nerfed. Its the smallest most fragile mech in the game that needs its size, agility (acceleration and deceleration) and speed to stay alive. Its firepower and armor sucks, bad. People need to learn to aim better. I've killed my share of locusts, done my share of killing in them and I also get killed in them a ton.

If PGI nerfs the locust, us good light pilots will just move to another light mech, practice in that different mech and make that mech seem OP. PGI will then nerf that mech with enough complaints. Then us pilots will again move to another mech, practice in it and make that mech seem OP. At that case we will move onto another mech and so so and so forth. Doesn't matter the weight class. Keep that nerfing train coming PGI. We will just have to adapt and move onto the next mech and make that seem OP.

The problem is really good pilots are making some mechs seem OP when they are not. Its the pilot. Don't believe me? If you haven't piloted a light before, or its been a long time, pick up a locust and run it. See how long you last and how little damage you put out for the work you do. It takes skill, situational awareness, work and a lot of it to be good in that little sucker. Is that the mechs fault or does a really good pilot make it seem like the mech?

Being a pilot of all weight classes I will say this, all my match scores in all the weight classes are pretty close for me but I have my lowest match scores in my lights. Even with this, I am still pretty high up on the leaderboards (at least I was until I am now "basic'ing my locust) with my lights compared to every other weight class I pilot (except heavy). The thing is, I know I pilot my lights good. Me being at the top of my lances most every match and top of the leaderboards (before I starting basic'ing other lights) proves this.

What does all this mean?

The light class is the hardest weight class to get the highest match score in. Because of their light firepower and armor comparatively, it takes a lot of time, work and skill to get a lot of damage. The really good pilots just make it look easy but they are working. I am working. Trust me. There is a reason why light class is now the lowest piloted class in MechWarrior.

PGI keeps nerfing the lights into the ground because of the good pilots who take up the challenge pilot them and everyone else complaining about it. Nerfing these lights is not only an attempt to bring good players to average, its causing the average players to get toasted in this weight class even faster. All but the most dedicated of these pilots then refuse to pilot this weight class because a light in the hands of an average pilot is not going to last at all compared to heavier classes. Again, just look at the wait times for the light vs every other weight class. This will tell you the story.

If lights were so easy and OP compared to every other mech in this game shouldn't we see more lights in each game and a more balanced wait time? Yes, we should.

PGI, stop nerfing lights. Its already the least played class with the least amount of viable options. All you are doing is making the good pilots jump from "the least crappy light mech" to another mech that has now become the "least crappy light mech" from constant nerfing because people just don't want to work on their aim and get better. Again, we are working. A lot. Trust me.

I wish I could like this more than once. ^THIS. Right here.

Have I been destroyed in my Lights? Or Locust in general? Yes. This past Saturday was the perfect example. I was struggling something fierce to break 100dmg before blowing up.

But I've also had 500-700+ dmg games in my RVN and my LCTs...

[Blind Baku]

Nightshade24, on 16 July 2016 - 07:28 PM, said:

Remove the quirks and the 1 smaller laser + 4 machine guns would be better over 1 large laser.

PGI didn't give those quirks to the 1V because they think MG's are garbage (in fact it's more likely because they think Machine guns are OP, remember what they said before? when they nerfed MG's by 20% because they think mechs like the locust, spider, and ember were over powered killing assaults easily and that one day if a 6 machine gun 'mech ever appears it'll be OP as hell? Did you ever thought why we are not getting the Piranha (12 machine guns) anytime soon or why machine guns got only nerfs in the past 4 years of MW: O? It's because PGI thinks machine guns are to good, not bad.)
The reason why they did it because too many people in the community (or verbal community that changes depending on issue is bipolar). At first there was an uproar: we need more lore quirks!/ more stock quriks!. Then after those changes people cried for more optimisation quirks/ more non lore quirks!, then people started saying the thing they said before again.
This is also why the Pirates bane no longer gets an AC 2 quirk. Because people wanted quirks that suited the stock (again).

The reason why PGI wanted this locust is pretty obvious, if you haven't been following anyonee specifically one of them prefers 1 large laser locust, he has them on two locusts, the 1V because it came first, and the 3M for a higher hardpoint version.

Mathematically, 4 machine guns and 1 medium laser gets nearly the same DPS as a single large pulse laser with uberquirks.
4 machine guns and medium pulse laser (3T ammo to 2T ammo) gets more DPS.
This is comparing the underquirked machine guns mostly to the uberquirked large pulse laser. The follow up differences to that is

without the weapon quirks the machine gun coupled with a medium laser at least in the respected ranges would be superior in terms of damage output compared to the large laser. If it isn't MLG/ cheesy/ meta/ competitive enough for you then that's your problem. Quirks in MW: O are mainly there to spread variety and boost on a 'Mechs advantage. This one is machine gun boating. Any locust in game right now can mount a large laser. none of them can mount 4 machine guns.

The last sentence is n/a in this context. I never mentioned BT rules, I never mentioned 2D6 or that it's a 1:1 translation to MW: O. If I wanted a 1:1 translation instead of complaining about quirks I would be saying force every 'Mech to be stock. As well as shout clan mechs should be in stars not lances, clans should be in a binary not a company, clan and IS are devided teams in FP, etc.

If I want to fight under 200 meters, why should I use the 3M over the 1V? There's a huge gameplay difference between the two mechs, such as the lack of ballistic hardpoints as well as the heat build up. Even a blind man can tell you the differencess between a small pulse laser and a machine gun.


Before the quirks 4 machine gun locusts were common, rather 4 MG + ML, or 4MG + MPL, builds were also popular for 2MG and 1 Large laser, but these were not as common as the 4 MG locusts, 1 large laser/ 1 large pulse lasers were not that common before the quirkening because 4 mg's provided nearly the same DPS as a single large laser and did more with a medium laser as well.

My build has a medium laser and 4 machine guns, I also ran a lighter engine which this is due to having 4 tonnes of machine gun ammo which I do run out relatively often but most often within optimal range. However I got a 2nd Locust 1V (due to how dirt cheap they are) which has the same load out but instead of a lighter engine it's lighter armour.

4T of machine gun ammo is 8000 rounds, each round doing 0.08 damage. Approximately 640 damage if all bullets hit. Most of the time they do as I am basically right up the back of an atlas or what have you. (killing him in a couple seconds due to the sheer DPS of machine guns). The medium laser did the remainder of the ~360. However I must say I do not (or back then) run modules, and I do believe machine gun ROF quirks back when wasn't in game either. If I modules up my medium laser/ had machine gun ROF quirks / if I can module a machine gun the damage would be higher. Of course I will not pretend every single bullet hits. It'll be like firing an LRM 20 at an enemy and trying to count how much missed and hit. However I can tell you I would definetely not hit 1000 damage with a single medium laser alone.

I would personally appreciate if PGI makes the machine gun dps back to 1.0 / made the damage per shot back to 0.1 instead of 0.08. Would teach those bad players who pretend a machine gun light can't hurt them to not ignore a 'mech. But then again it would probably make the Locust 1V and Spider 5K kings of lights again... would be so fun to see the Piranha in game or Kraken.
I really want to run 12 machine guns , 2 gauss, and an STD 400 on my kraken.

That was an informative wall of text...

[InspectorG]

Nightshade24, on 18 July 2016 - 04:58 AM, said:

The reason they didn't give decent MG quirks is because they need to spend time coding new quirks for a weapon system they already think is borderline OP.

The literal only guirk for machine guns right now is ROF, and that also increases ammo consumption and fire accuracy.
There is no quirks to give machine guns longer range, less spread, higher crit chance, etc. Ballistic generic quirks do not affect PPC's, and Targeting computers from memory doesn't either.
The same reason the Raven 3L didn't get it's ECM quirks yet is the same reason the Locust 1V doesn't have proper MG quirks.
However it may not be as simple as adding a line of code/ a value to it like most quirks, still doesn't feminist the fact that it would be highly appreciated for not only the Locust 1V but all other Machine gun boats out there and those that do not boat it.
Shadowcat P, Spider 5K, Battlemaster G, Timberwolf, Mist Lynx, Cicada, etc. I see no problem in these mechs recieving these quirks and more viarirty in the quirks can help differenciate machine gun mechs/ omnipods, you want more accuracy or faster fire rate, etc...

I doubt PGI thinks MGs are good. I would bet they just ignore them for now because they need another balancing mechanic to alter boating.
And i wouldnt use the lack of attention from PGI as a metric for viability. Summoners, Commandos, Vindictors....etc. Come to mind about bad things that get no attention.

MGs need careful balance because like most other things in MWO, you need more than a single MG to be decent.

Quirk RoF until boating 4+ becomes solid and any mech with less than 4B wont bother. Quirk till 2MG is good and ShadCats will be OP.

The solution to that dilemma lies elsewhere.

Dont get me wrong i would love MGs to be viable but there is a reason you dont see high level players hording MG boats.

Nightshade24, on 18 July 2016 - 04:58 AM, said:

If you ask me that's your personal fault you simply ignore 80% of the hardpoints on a 'Mech. Why should the mech randomly have quirks to try to compensate for your singular cherry picked hardpoint to be overpowered?
Why not give the Atlas D-DC a 50% laser quirks too for those people who hate using AC 20's and SRM's so that they can wiggle around with twin large pulse lasers or what ever.

Your argument is built upon all hardpoints having equal value.

They dont.

Spider K is in a good spot with its mega quirked 1E and 4MG.

Cicada C is not. 1E+4B in your logic screams Ballistic boat. But it cant. Why? because there is more to mech balance than just quirk and Hardpoints.

Cicada with a ERPPC and 4MG is a joke. Why? Brawling with those sh*tboxes at that range is silly and not a willful choice.
No shield arms. Big St boxes with a XL engine if you want any speed/tonnage. Easy to shoot legs. gets easily chewed up by just about any other mech solo. 4/5 of your weapons cant single out components and a single ERPPC just cant pump much damage.

Ok, so boat 2-3 AC2. Wrong. Pitiful damage for a borked weapon that PGI hasnt soled the boating equation yet. Plus with 3 Ac2 you would have to use a sub-200 xlengine. Yay.

Whats left...ERPPC+UAC5? Cant use Gauss because tonnage restriction. So you can poke for 15-20 damage depending on jams.
There are so many other mediums that can do the above better.

Your Atlas argument is bunk also. The Atlas has options due to tonnage. Lights do not.

The Atlas became the AC20+SRMs via iteration and player want for a beastly brawler. Hence all the structure quirks.

And, yes, The Atlas-D/DDC can run 2UAC5+Lazors. Gauss+lazers. 50% energy quirks would be unwarranted because it can do the stated decently well.

Im sorry you dont like the Meta but hey, players wont use hardpoints if they are located in bad spots or for weapons that dont fit MWo meta in any decent manner.

Cry about the meta all you want, meta is just the natural efficient tactics that emerge. you can run any troll build you want but dont expect it to fare well in the average setting.

Nightshade24, on 18 July 2016 - 04:58 AM, said:

If you quite dislike the Locust 1V after ignoring it's native traits, why are you so eager to want it to be quirked into something you want to use? There are 3 other locusts in game to get your 3 for mastery. two of which are energy boats and another being a hero. The commando is more suitable for running around with a large laser Could even have a back up medium laser.
or perhaps you wish the (now in)famous ER PPC Comando or something. However at about the same speed is the Spider, more armour, jumpjets, can easily handle ER large lasers/ ER PPC's/ Large pulse lasers.
I do not have an idea why you would preffer these quirks for the 1V but while you so obviously have issues with it.

Commando has a whole other set of issues than the Locust, if you were paying attention.

By your hardpoint logic, Commandos should be Energy+SRM/LRM.

Can run LRMs on it, not enough ammo to even be viable in MWO.

That leaves E/SRMs.

All the E is in the arms and the M is split between CT and Arms.
AND you get fewer hardpoints than some of the Locusts.

Commandos are now bigger targets and that 5 extra tons gets you....not much. And why hasnt the TDK recieved decent E heat reduction quirks? TDK must be fine as is???


As far as Stock mode, i played Stock Mode Mondays before the Quirkening. It was fun but HEAVILY relied on player created rules in private matches.
Wouldnt work in regular MWo and PGI shouldnt try to balance that or even make it a basis for any balancing attempts.

[Digital_Angel]

Desicator, on 15 July 2016 - 09:28 AM, said:

No one could possibly hit a locust with PPCs that's nonhuman!!...

Nowhere near every shot, but I hit Locusts with ACs or PPCs all the time. When I am in one of my Locusts, an enemy with really good aim with ACs or PPCs is by far the biggest threat. Streaks tear you up, but good situational awareness can keep you well out of their range most of the time. Someone who can semi-reliably hit you with AC5s or bigger or PPCs from range (which half the time means you ran in too much of a straight line or circled around a given opponent too long for them to get your timing down) is deadly.

[Nightshade24]

InspectorG, on 18 July 2016 - 02:11 PM, said:

I doubt PGI thinks MGs are good. I would bet they just ignore them for now because they need another balancing mechanic to alter boating.
And i wouldnt use the lack of attention from PGI as a metric for viability. Summoners, Commandos, Vindictors....etc. Come to mind about bad things that get no attention.

MGs need careful balance because like most other things in MWO, you need more than a single MG to be decent.

Quirk RoF until boating 4+ becomes solid and any mech with less than 4B wont bother. Quirk till 2MG is good and ShadCats will be OP.

The solution to that dilemma lies elsewhere.

Dont get me wrong i would love MGs to be viable but there is a reason you dont see high level players hording MG boats.

You sure?

At first the Machine guns had a DPS of 1, damage per shot being 0.1 (instead of 0.8 and 0.08).
Machine guns are heat neutral, has the same accuracy as a laser and no spread, very high crit chance that as soon as anything opens up anything but the indestructable components get destroyed (hands, cockpit, sensors, engine, gyro, lower hand actuator, foot, etc). But it was nerfed... at first it was a damage nerf which then another damage nerf happened again with a heavy nerf to crits... they lowered ammo per ton... the following nerf was adding a spread to the thing and there was another nerf again later on.


Each time PGI got questioned why the hell machine guns get nerfed. They keep saying how a 6 machine gun spider would probably single handedly win the battle (as back then the only 6 ballistic mech in game was the Jagermech, Even then 6 machine guns and 2 large pulse lasers/ 2 er ppc's were common. The BlackJack hero "Arrow" was themed after these builds as well much after the nerfs though.)
PGI was scared of a day a 'mech can have 6 ballistics because how "OP" 6 machine guns would be and that machine guns keep getting nerfed because 4 machine guns was OP. Instead of adding ghost heat they gave it spread because they saw machine gun boating a problem.

You honestly think they do not think the machine gunss are good or ballanced? Well if we look at it on paper why should it be considered pathetic? compare it to a large pulse laser locust without any quirks and the answer is right there, machine guns atm have the highest DPS per ton out there, beating virtually nearly every weapon in game. It is heat neutral, making it the most heat effecient weapon in game. It crits and does additional damage to internals (was checked by kanajashi). etc.
It's why people still use machine guns heavily. I personally adore my stock Shadowcat P with it's 6 machine guns as it rips appart medium mechs in seconds and easily kills assaults if there is a team mate with it.

However I personally want the machine guns to get a buff. I want the 1.0 DPS back, evidently problems with machine guns is obvious with you who you clearly have a distaste for it. (much like how people think LRM's, SRM's, AC 2's, LBX's, etc, are very bad weapons that should be pretended they do not exist in MW: O when building a mech)
I also want not a ghost heat effect but otherwise a penalty for multiple machine guns in the form of a spread where a single machine gun is pinpoint. The rest of the machine guns slowly get more and more spread. This is obviously a way to counter the possibility of 12-14 machine guns, which at 1.0 DPS is well... 14 damage per second. That's coring a light mech in a few seconds, that's corring an atlas in about 7 seconds.

Besides, it would support lore, Lore / BT machine guns have more DPS/ Damage then currently, as well as having longer range and well technically accuracy as well.

The Piranha is a light clan 'mech with 12 machine guns with 3 lasers.

and the Kraken "Bane" is an assault with 14 ballistics stock, not like anyone is silly to run nothing but 14 machine guns, but twin gauss and 12 machine guns or 4 UAC 10's and 10 machine guns is a posibility with a high engine and max armour.


Mentioning these mechs as these are a pair of 'mechs that some people really want, the Piranha especially due to the sheer machine guns and the fact it's a 20 tonner. It's one of the 3 only 20 tonners the game can have right now in timeline for clans.
The other is a firemoth, 200+ kph speed is a problem thus it won't be added yet.
The howler is an LRM boat, 3 LRM 5's, it's also quite slow. With PGI engine rules it will struggle to break 100 kph unless PGI gives an engine enflation- which was only ever recieved on about 2 variants I think of any mech in MW: O.
(there is one with an ER PPC, but that requires heavy hardpoint inflation and even then it's all on 1 arm... it'll be hard to model what was once a slender PPC sniper arm into a be hive of small lasers)

So yea...

PGI is scared of machine guns being over powered, So we need
A: A way to buff machine guns without shifting the meta of lights to be 100% machine guns again.
B: A way to give a penalty to increasing volumes of machine guns, ghost heat can't work because 100000% more heat onto 0 heat is no penalty. Even then it's silly to think that 6 machine guns will give you more heat than a pair of ER PPC's.

My proposal is instead of penalty heat it should be penalty spread. (obviously never going to the point that you are firing at a heavy mech and you are hitting everywhere around it.)

It is true most things in MW: O are better in boats. But I have to say that many weapons can handle it, Excludding weapons of 3 slots or more (to cut down on the list), single AC 2/ 5/ ER PPC / Large lassers is quite popular choice on 45 tonners and lower. Famously the Panther, Spider, Commando, Cicada, etc.
I personally always put on an SRM 4 or 6 on a mech that can fit a single one such as a hellbringer, banshee, etc. I think a single SRM 6 with no other SRM's can do well, or an SRM 4, a single SRM 2 is a choice only on some lighter mechs like a comando.

I think a lot of weapons (depending on the rest of the build) can handle being alone. Some people do not like this as it means you hve to press more then 1-2 keys to use the mech but hey, I learned how to use 6 weapon groups thanks to mechwarrior 4, I can handle 6 different weapon ranges/ types on 6 weapon groups in MW: O quite often getting an edge on other people.

Single machine gun? Would be hard to ballance this. It'll just be a support weapon for small/ medium lasers up close. But as I said above, no spread could go a long way for single machine guns. (one day Osiris... one day.)

TBH even I have to quesiton if it'll just be for show or not. if they ever change the crit system which they said they may the single machine gun can be a definite edge, could be the reason that ST that just got cored just exploded after a second or two of fire.

InspectorG, on 18 July 2016 - 02:11 PM, said:

Your argument is built upon all hardpoints having equal value.

They dont.

Spider K is in a good spot with its mega quirked 1E and 4MG.

Cicada C is not. 1E+4B in your logic screams Ballistic boat. But it cant. Why? because there is more to mech balance than just quirk and Hardpoints.

Cicada with a ERPPC and 4MG is a joke. Why? Brawling with those sh*tboxes at that range is silly and not a willful choice.
No shield arms. Big St boxes with a XL engine if you want any speed/tonnage. Easy to shoot legs. gets easily chewed up by just about any other mech solo. 4/5 of your weapons cant single out components and a single ERPPC just cant pump much damage.

Ok, so boat 2-3 AC2. Wrong. Pitiful damage for a borked weapon that PGI hasnt soled the boating equation yet. Plus with 3 Ac2 you would have to use a sub-200 xlengine. Yay.

Whats left...ERPPC+UAC5? Cant use Gauss because tonnage restriction. So you can poke for 15-20 damage depending on jams.
There are so many other mediums that can do the above better.

Your Atlas argument is bunk also. The Atlas has options due to tonnage. Lights do not.

The Atlas became the AC20+SRMs via iteration and player want for a beastly brawler. Hence all the structure quirks.

And, yes, The Atlas-D/DDC can run 2UAC5+Lazors. Gauss+lazers. 50% energy quirks would be unwarranted because it can do the stated decently well.

Im sorry you dont like the Meta but hey, players wont use hardpoints if they are located in bad spots or for weapons that dont fit MWo meta in any decent manner.

Cry about the meta all you want, meta is just the natural efficient tactics that emerge. you can run any troll build you want but dont expect it to fare well in the average setting.

Who said anything about brawling? In the Cicada for instance, you keep your range and spam your volleys of ER PPC's at range, however you know how 'predictable' a match can go and you will never always be in the possition to be at range. Those 4 machine guns means you do not over heat when a mech walks close to you, Rather you be in a team or not. thosse 4 machine guns (with a DPS of ~3.2, with the occasional ER PPC giving in an additional 10 damage can give you a fighting chance against mediums nad lights. To heavier chassis you should have the speed to avoid them. However in the group situation say a heavy enemy push, the distracted mechs in this turmoil will allow you to give your share of armour and do considerable damage to the mechs ingnoring you, If they start to priorities you, you use your speed to relocate.
This coming from my personal experience in the Cicada C and is definetely an advantage. It's hard to say an ER PPC cicada is better then a ER PPC ciada with 4 machine guns for back up as it does quite a good job helping in combat. You are not and never will be "Brawlings", However my friend uses a Large pulse laser instead and purposely goes into close quarters combat.
Which close range cicadas isn't unheard of, most cicadas run small and medium lasers as well as pulses, Cicadas quite often come up to the typical light harraser engangement ranges and run away. Your point on hitboxes and shield arms doesn't really apply here since every other Cicada is typically in close quarters and not sure about you but I love my locusts... well, I personally still trying to learn to use the energy boating ones. But that's my personal problem.

I used to laugh at 2+ AC locusts as well, Until one match I was in my catapult captured epsilon on terra therma ages ago (probably 2 years ago from now) and I didn't see it coming, A Cicada behind me powered up and slowly walked towards me, a disarmed teammate saw the slowly approaching cicada and shouted my name in the chat to turn around, but it was a bit to late, he instantly took of one of my ears. He had twin AC 20's, I turned around and started firing my medium lasers and occasionally getting 200+ meters to use my now single LRM 15 but he toasted me. He eventually won the game by killing the only 3 people (1 cored in the side torso, 1 disarmed, and 1 relatively fresh but being a centurion SRM 6 boat)
Okay, it's a slow specialised builds. I may as well get killed by LBX 10 locustss as often or likely.
But then later on I saw my friend on the enemy team, him and 2 other team mates had dual AC 5 / dual UAC 5 / 3-4 AC 2 (forgot) Cicadas. I was in my own cicada as earlier I told him I would try it out and it was my 40th mech (it's funny thinking about having so few mechs in MW: O considering now I am verging to my 200th). It was back when it was Elo match making and it was in the high end players. I saw many familiar faces from the leaderboards, forums, etc. I got cocky and wanted to go for my friend but after coring and ridding him of an AC 5 his friends got me. They moved on to be on the winning team with the top kills/ kill assists and damage in game.
Was games like these and more I had 2 years ago that tought me to not laugh at any odity I see. Guess you could call that Wisdom. Tought me better judgement based on my past experiences.
I personally run some slow lights, all my urbies run in assault mech speeds, 2 of my wolfhounds go around about 80-90 kph, and I personally love the Kitfox which goes just at 100. As well as loving all 3 ravens (ended up playing the 3L the least) before the engine rating buff for the 4X and 2X. So a slow 2-4 AC 2 cicada is not a laughing matter in my books, Nor do I consider it bad. I personally like the AC 2's due to lack of ghost heat and their recent bufs (recent in my times), I think it was a heat reduction, velocity increase, crit chance increase, and reduced cooldown? I run 3 on my Shadowhawk 2H I believe the variant is and love it. Do not see how a Cicada one could be pathetic, as long as he doesn't get any attention that is.

You hate machine guns and that's your main reasoning with not liking the 4 machine gun locust to be that.
So what stops say me hating AC's and SRM's and saying I want my Atlas DDC to be an energy boat? That's the point of my reasoning. I want my 2 large pulse Atlas to do more damage then a 1 large pulse locust. (oh wait... at the momment hte 50% quirk makes the locust have the same DPS than 2 large pulse lasers...).

The meta in MW: O is not the Meta in any other game.
The meta is very different between servers, (specifically north american and europe) durring relative peak hours. You see gauss a lot more in the Eu then you see in America which does lasers a lot more. The other thing is that every competetive unit/ team often disagree on the meta. Quite a lot of players and most being tier 1's/ tourny players still preach how much the 2 large pulse lsaer 4 er medium Timberwolf is. Others say that meta combo is out dated and it's the 2 large pulse laser gauss ebon jaguar where it's at, while others say it's that timberwolf weapon combo on other mechs that where it is at.... than there's people disagreeing if 6 SRM 6's + Artemis is competetive or straight tier 4 rubbish as well as the dual guass/ dual AC 20 jagermech. You got people calling the Ice ferrit the worst medium mech in game then meanwhile CWI and other units say it's a very great mech with 3 SRM 4's and a medium pulse laser.
Just look at Metamechs and the threads related to it, half of the thread is people argueing this should be a tier 1 mech, that should be a tier 3 mech, wtf is an awesome doing that high? why is the timberwolf still in tier 1... etc.
I can listen to you on your idea of what is the best weapons in game, on the same day say it on another thread, and I get bashed for thinking such a thing. (2 years foruming tought me that. But hey, at least I started sourcing peopels comments/ posts and now they get some of the heat)
Using the gaming term for meta game. Then the Locust 1V is a meta mech, it can easily perform it's role on hot maps and rip assaults to bits compared to say energy boat lights who would perform much more slower. Meta games love having ballance in imballance and having a rock paper scissors and right now the Locust 1V Machine gunner is in that slot. You see machine gun boats much more often then if you see a guy with a flamer or a SRM 6 splatcat (which has gotten popular in recent eventss nad some people debating if that's a meta mech since it got major improvements nad the earlier splatter that was contending for meta was the mad dog A). LRM boats are also meta, they excel in long range support and indirect support and easily support the team when otherwise they couldn't due to the crowded situation or speed. Obviously requiring the team to co operate BUT that's also part of the meta, meta involves tactics as well and if there is a team then team work. Or in the forever changing english language, Metagaming exclusively invovles the strategies and tactics (there's a difference) in the match.
But I am not going to talk about meta with you further. Do post what ever you like, I won't respond to it. Heck, won't be surprised if my examples here you would argue "WTF no, Timberwolf is still the best heavy/ mech in game!". I'll leave you to the threads talking about it instead if you want.

InspectorG, on 18 July 2016 - 02:11 PM, said:

Commando has a whole other set of issues than the Locust, if you were paying attention.

By your hardpoint logic, Commandos should be Energy+SRM/LRM.

Can run LRMs on it, not enough ammo to even be viable in MWO.

That leaves E/SRMs.

All the E is in the arms and the M is split between CT and Arms.
AND you get fewer hardpoints than some of the Locusts.

Commandos are now bigger targets and that 5 extra tons gets you....not much. And why hasnt the TDK recieved decent E heat reduction quirks? TDK must be fine as is???


As far as Stock mode, i played Stock Mode Mondays before the Quirkening. It was fun but HEAVILY relied on player created rules in private matches.
Wouldnt work in regular MWo and PGI shouldnt try to balance that or even make it a basis for any balancing attempts.

"But forumer! SRM 2's and such are pointless! they spread a lot and use a lot of ammo!" /as useless as Machine guns.
So a Commando is just as useless as the Locust 1V.

And I love how you just completely jodged my question about how the Locust 1V with the energy quirks out perform every locust in game especially the energy, and ballistic ones...

[Y E O N N E]

MGs most definitely have spread...

[Mayor McCheese]

This game is meant to be only Sniper mediums, Laser vomit heavy mechs and Daka Kodiaks! haven't you all been getting the memo

[Blind Baku]

Mayor McCheese, on 19 July 2016 - 05:20 PM, said:

This game is meant to be only Sniper mediums, Laser vomit heavy mechs and Daka Kodiaks! haven't you all been getting the memo

uac kdk3 took a harder nerf than the lct

[Kangarad]

Blind Baku, on 19 July 2016 - 05:40 PM, said:

uac kdk3 took a harder nerf than the lct

nah its just still bugged, now they figurred out that you can tripple your heat if you doubletap twice in 0.5 seconds and people are back to complaining about that.

[SpiralFace]

Have been seeing plenty of Locusts today. Have been seeing a good amount of them hit 300-400 damage numbers with either single or multiple kills pretty regularly.

The few times I've died and spectated them, they still all die to CT cores, which outside of the 1V has pretty much remained unchanged since their Mobility quirks where pretty much untouched.

Not going to say that the nerf didn't hurt, I'm sure it did for many people. But I think the calls of "overnerfed" have been greatly exaggerated. I've seen them put up good numbers and be the difference makers in many of the game's I've dropped in today.

Edited by SpiralFace, 19 July 2016 - 05:52 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

SpiralFace, on 19 July 2016 - 05:51 PM, said:

Have been seeing plenty of Locusts today. Have been seeing a good amount of them hit 300-400 damage numbers with either single or multiple kills pretty regularly.

The few times I've died and spectated them, they still all die to CT cores, which outside of the 1V has pretty much remained unchanged since their Mobility quirks where pretty much untouched.

Not going to say that the nerf didn't hurt, I'm sure it did for many people. But I think the calls of "overnerfed" have been greatly exaggerated. I've seen them put up good numbers and be the difference makers in many of the game's I've dropped in today.

*whistles innocently*

The 3S is definitely too fragile for the range bracket it's compelled to play at by virtue of its weight, hardpoint types, and ammo necessity. They can keep the 10% SRM velocity nerf, but it really needs that armor back. Shaving from the arms is the only way you can get enough ammo to be useful and it hurts.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 19 July 2016 - 06:14 PM.

[SpiralFace]

How much of that was through legging and arm stripping though?

I've seen a good amount of 3S' around since the Oxide nerfs. Very potent mechs by the look of it. But I have yet to see one legged. Almost everything I've seen have been CT cored. Which was pretty much unchanged since last patch.

Not denying that more armor is good for a frail mech, I just haven't seen it be a major issue as most of the LCT. I see dying are still dying to CT cores which has remained unaltered since last patch for the most part.

Edited by SpiralFace, 19 July 2016 - 06:19 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

SpiralFace, on 19 July 2016 - 06:17 PM, said:

How much of that was through legging and arm stripping though?

I've seen a good amount of 3S' around since the Oxide nerfs. Very potent mechs by the look of it. But I have yet to see one legged. Almost everything I've seen have been CT cored. Which was pretty much unchanged since last patch.

Not denying that more armor is good for a frail mech, I just haven't seen it be a major issue as most of the LCT. I see dying are still dying to CT cores which has remained unaltered since last patch for the most part.

It's not the legs, really, it's the arms. The arms get hit frequently at brawl distances, and it's exacerbated by them being twice the size as other Locusts because it stacks two SRM2 on top of each other.