157 replies to this topic

[Ryllen Kriel]

I don't care much about how the Long Tom is tweaked...as long as it can't hit me in the Quickplay queue then I'm not concerned.

[Trauglodyte]

I haven't played FW yet but even I, after seeing the videos, don't understand this. What would be so wrong with setting the cool down to only being allowable in the last team wave or something like that? LT, in its current state, makes no sense UNLESS, PGI wants the games to go faster. Hell, if there was a way of slowing it down during Invasion, I think that people would be ok with it.

[Alex Morgaine]

Baulven, on 14 July 2016 - 03:53 PM, said:

That would simply encourage super LRM boating though and with no way to hide or break lock it would actually be exceedingly bad, as most maps have terrible cover in CW.

Eh easy fix. Radar detection only, no auto lock unless you have a personal uav/team mate lock a target. It just lets you see where they are it's all, no auto lrmming.

[Andi Nagasia]

Baulven, on 14 July 2016 - 02:55 AM, said:

Looks like we are bullocked again. Seriously reduce it to 30 per component max, change the radius back to 300m and have it drop off 5 per 50m. It's simple, it won't be uber death to the majority of mechs, and it's still useful. I also say every 4 minutes would work best since loading the artillery cannon would probably take a bit.

so what your saying it it would be like 6SSRM6s hitting you 2.5times? every 4 minutes?

Lights and Mediums are fast Enough to get out of the way in time,
Heavies and Assaults would just Shrug it off, it would be Useless, at that point just remove it,

the LongTom Should Hurt, its an Incentive for you to Scout the Planet and Attack,
if you are getting hit with the LT you need to get an Active Scouting Party,
edit- Spelling

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 14 July 2016 - 06:46 PM.

[MischiefSC]

So what invasion incentive let's me cripple scout queue? What's my "incentive" for invasion queue?

So the logic is you have to scout, if you scout invasion is easy. Side that wins scouting is more or less guaranteed to win Invasion.

So 4man queue closes 12man queue.

I get the intent. I do. In practice it is a terrible mechanic. People play scouting because they want to. You have decisive advantages to scouting then anyone who wants to play Invasion has to either play what they don't want, or just play QP, or play a different game.

Is Scouting inherently unfun? Inferior? What is the flaw in scouting that we feel you have to force people to play it if they want to play Invasion?

Again, look at game queues. Look at what 99% of the FW population is saying. We hate. LT. We don't want it with us, we don't want it against us. We don't want it. Most of us won't play with it and so most of us have quit. We've had to functionally shutter all but 4 factions just to get matches, not because we want to but because most people hate the game mode in large part because LT.

Please. Make it stop so we can try to enjoy playing the game.

[Karmen Baric]

LongTom should not destroy the game mode which is what it will continue to do.

Andi Nagasia, on 14 July 2016 - 06:43 PM, said:

if you are getting hit with the LT you need to get an Active Scouting Party,
edit- Spelling

If you are getting hit with the LT you need to stop playing Faction Warfare - because thats what most people are doing, or leaving MWO completely.

People advocating the LongTom are simply seeing the current benefits, that its a Planet insta win with it but too short-sighted to see its actually ruining Faction Warfare and driving people away from the mode and the game as a whole.

Ill stop caring about LongTom too soon enough, because i wont play FW any more. Let the whole mode burn and die until only about 4 pro units are still playing it, pity that they'll all be in the same Clan faction though, so unable to get a game.

Edited by Karmen Baric, 14 July 2016 - 07:27 PM.

[Andi Nagasia]

many agree Scouting mode is fun and the matches are Very different from anything else in MWO,
if you dont want to Play Scouting but are Losing to LTom than maybe you need to use Faction Chat,
say you need a Scouting Party on (Planet Name) and most of the time thats all you need to get Scouts,
if you not willing to at least do that, then perhaps Faction Warfare isnt the Right Mode for you,


Remember we all Agreed to this, if this is your First Time Seeing this,
Perhaps you need to Read Everything before just Clicking ok,


i cant say i Agree that 99% of Everyone doesnt like LToms,
i can say many dislike it, Many think it should be Tuned down, and many Dont Care, thats hardly 99%,
is LTom Instant Death? No not in the Slightest, you can see when its coming and Plan with your team,
when you see you only have 20seconds left, Scream on Voip(LongToms Coming Spread out!),
the only times this doesnt work is when your in a Brawl, in that Case LTom can hit Both Teams,
you need to Orginize, Talk, Command, work together and Move to Win,
this isnt SoloQue-Puglandia this is FactionWarfare-HardMode!

Karmen Baric, on 14 July 2016 - 07:24 PM, said:

LongTom should not destroy the game mode which is what it will continue to do.

If you are getting hit with the LT you need to stop playing Faction Warfare - because thats what most people are doing, or leaving MWO completely.

People advocating the LongTom are simply seeing the current benefits, that its a Planet insta win with it but too short-sighted to see its actually ruining Faction Warfare and driving people away from the mode and the game as a whole.

Ill stop caring about LongTom too soon enough, because i wont play FW any more. Let the whole mode burn and die until only about 4 pro units are still playing it, pity that they'll all be in the same Clan faction though, so unable to get a game.

LTom has Counters which Ive Listed Above, and im also Not advocating that LTom is Fine,
i think it needs to be balanced and Fixed, but i dont Agree it needs to Be removed,
if you know how LTom works and are organized than it can be Overcome,
FW isnt an Easy mode, it will never had a MM, its Listed as HardMode,
you cant just Jump in not talk or Organize and Expect to Rambo a win,

[MischiefSC]

So your argument is literally the exact same one used to justify broken IS/Clan balance for 2 years? "Yes, it's broken (in my favor) but you need to learn to work with it anyway because that's hardmode".

That argument is terrible.

You're saying that yes, absolutely, FW is controlled from the scout queue and the 4man queue is supposed to close the 12man queue.

So the event clearly pointed out the balance issues for pug v pug matches in scout queue but, of course, we need to just scout more, right? Mind-control the pugs over every IS faction who come and lose 90% of matches scouting Steiner/CJF border because it's the only active front?

Or just do what hundreds have done already and quit.

There is no surprise at all to see the CJF tag next to your name. The only people in any thread who've posted in favor of the mechanic (including yourself a total of 5 people I can identify) are people who are amazingly and coincidentally people advantaged by the broken mechanic.

I'll link all the other disorganized terribads who hate LT to your post, like all of MS, Pat Kell, pretty much every single good unit still in FW and let them know that identifying what a horrible game mechanic LT is just means they're no good at the game and need to leave FW.

Your argument holds absolutely no water. The problem is that A) it makes scouting the basis of all Faction Warfare. You have to be winning Scouting to play Invasion. Scouting balance is terrible. Tough luck, that's how it's supposed to be apparently. B ) Winning at Scouting means you have a mechanic that auto-destroys your enemies so you get less pay and less play even when they do show up. C) Because almost everyone hates the mechanic almost everyone has quit playing FW.

I feel crazy for having to say this like somehow it's not self evident:

If a game mechanic makes people quit playing the game the game mechanic is bad.

So you'd rather nobody play FW than fix a bad mechanic because it's broken in your favor?

That's terrible.

[Remover of Obstacles]

Nerf it 80% or more or keep losing players.

[Deathlike]

I wonder if it's an experiment from PGI to make us want to hate the game, if not at least claim "the community wanted FW, and it failed".

The excuse bringing can be smelled miles away.

[Mcgral18]

Deathlike, on 14 July 2016 - 09:20 PM, said:

I wonder if it's an experiment from PGI to make us want to hate the game, if not at least claim "the community wanted FW, and it failed".

The excuse bringing can be smelled miles away.

Just look at their terrible Solo FW implementation to see that.
They didn't even try to make it viable, and removed it as soon as possible.

[MischiefSC]

Remover of Obstacles, on 14 July 2016 - 08:44 PM, said:

Nerf it 80% or more or keep losing players.

I've scoured the forums. There have been almost 30 threads I can find recently on the topic. Hundreds and hundreds of posts, I don't have the time or energy to count how many people have said they hate LT and want it gone or nerfed to be about as strong as an arty strike that shows up every 5 minutes or less.

I can find a total of 5 people who are in favor of it. All of them Clan players who benefit directly from the LT being a bad, broken mechanic.

When the vast bulk of players quit playing a game mode because of a mechanic the mechanic is bad. Telling them to play anyway so that the people advantaged by it being broken can keep reaping the benefit is so incredibly insane of a position I don't even know how to speak to it. It's an absurd sort of irrational.

[AssaultPig]

I wonder if there's any mechanic so bad that you would not try to excuse it by linking that ridiculous popup message

what a crock of ****

[Black Ivan]

I also begin to wonder if PGI wants to drive people from playing CW. LT is in no way a balanced mechanic. The team who wins Long Tom closes the planet for Invasion, until or if someone dares to scout and even then scouting can mean nothing if enough defenders drop to deny the shut dowen of TL.

GG Close PGI

Edited by Black Ivan, 14 July 2016 - 10:49 PM.

[Pat Kell]

Andi Nagasia, on 14 July 2016 - 07:37 PM, said:

many agree Scouting mode is fun and the matches are Very different from anything else in MWO,
if you dont want to Play Scouting but are Losing to LTom than maybe you need to use Faction Chat,
say you need a Scouting Party on (Planet Name) and most of the time thats all you need to get Scouts,
if you not willing to at least do that, then perhaps Faction Warfare isnt the Right Mode for you,


Remember we all Agreed to this, if this is your First Time Seeing this,
Perhaps you need to Read Everything before just Clicking ok,


i cant say i Agree that 99% of Everyone doesnt like LToms,
i can say many dislike it, Many think it should be Tuned down, and many Dont Care, thats hardly 99%,
is LTom Instant Death? No not in the Slightest, you can see when its coming and Plan with your team,
when you see you only have 20seconds left, Scream on Voip(LongToms Coming Spread out!),
the only times this doesnt work is when your in a Brawl, in that Case LTom can hit Both Teams,
you need to Orginize, Talk, Command, work together and Move to Win,
this isnt SoloQue-Puglandia this is FactionWarfare-HardMode!


LTom has Counters which Ive Listed Above, and im also Not advocating that LTom is Fine,
i think it needs to be balanced and Fixed, but i dont Agree it needs to Be removed,
if you know how LTom works and are organized than it can be Overcome,
FW isnt an Easy mode, it will never had a MM, its Listed as HardMode,
you cant just Jump in not talk or Organize and Expect to Rambo a win,

So a few things I would like to go over here.

1. We did NOT sign up for this. We signed up for a stompy stompy mech shooting extravaganza with awesome graphics. We did not sign up to have the computer decide that it's your turn to die. Of course games change and people should adapt to the new situation but it should be incredibly clear by all the posts on this that a lot of people are deciding to leave CW rather than subject themselves to it's use. That in and of itself should clue PGI into the fact that if they want CW to be a strong part of MWO, than they need to make changes that people are going to accept and a large majority of players are speaking out and saying they don't want to play CW if long tom stays in this mode. This long tom was introduced at the beginning of phase 3 and has been one of the biggest reasons that people are leaving in disturbingly high numbers. Also, please do not be so condescending when pointing out to the community that by playing CW, we are agreeing to all the mechanics of this game. If there is something patently and obviously wrong with the game, it is our responsibility to come here and voice those concerns. Sure some aren't valid but on this one particular point, a VAST majority of the posts I have seen are saying that long tom is too powerful and needs to be either drastically reduce in power and range or removed altogether and replaced with something else.

2. Yes, long tom is instant death if you are near it. Most mechs can't run from it because of it's range even if they are at a dead run when the purple smoke drops. In fact, mechs that are fast enough to gain some distance from the center of the long tom are typically less armored and still wind up dead. Screaming over voip to spread out does absolutely nothing for the guy/s who are near ground zero as even the fastest mechs will sometimes get caught by it, if you're under 120KPH, kiss your but goodbye or at least most of your mech.

3. I am glad that you feel like long tom should be balanced and fixed but this won't be nearly as easy as one might think. It just doesn't revolve around the long tom itself, it's about the ability of one faction having somewhat (and I use that term loosely) of an advantage when it comes to scouting that would need addressed as well. I don't think it's as bad as some may think but it needs looked at as part of the fix for long tom. That being said, I think it would be much better for the survivability of CW if they would remove it altogether and replace it with something that makes more sense for the mode. Something that would still give people the desire to do scouting missions yet won't necessarily be a deciding factor in a match. There are several good options out there but I am in favor of giving each pilot on the side with "long tom" one additional air strike or arty strike that they could use as they please that is identical to the current one. Certainly not game breaking but can be helpful enough to warrant scouting for it. I am leery of a constant UAV type deal but if you made it like little seismic readings instead of allowing people to target lurms with it, I think that would be nice as well and honest maybe a be more in line with what you would think scouting would give you as a benefit...constant knowledge of where the enemy is at.

4. We are a highly organized team. I would never want to fight against a long tom for 2 reasons. Pulling a victory out of that is difficult to say the least and it removes the main reason for me wanting to play this game which is to shoot mechs. Now try putting yourself in the shoes of people who come to CW because they like the idea of being able to "respawn" and to have the long tom come in and ruin all of your fun by killing you without much of a fight occurring at all. You can talk all you want about CW being hard mode, which it is, and the need to communicate effectively, which you should but none of that will make someone want to come back and play when they are selected by the game to die. CW was already losing players at a rather steady pace for various reasons prior to long tom becoming a huge issue and the ones that were left had a bit of a gentleman's agreement not to scout to long tom so that we could actually play against each other in a reasonable, somewhat fair way. Once the event happened, people had to scout in order to get the goods and long tom came out in force, along with the apparent imbalances between IS and clan tech mainly due to streaks. This event did more to solidify the head stone of CW than any other thing I have seen. Sure, people have left for a variety of reasons in the past but nothing has been more clear cut to me than the long tom in not only getting old players to leave but to also sour the imagine of CW to new players. It must be changed drastically at the very least but even then I don't think it will be enough to get people to come back. I fear that the only thing that will get more people to play CW outside of events is by removing.

Sorry for the wall of text but for those who like to skip to the end to get the point, just read this. Remove or drastically weaken long tom or CW will never be able to pull itself out of the basement and low player participation that you are currently seeing. Not saying that a lot will come back as there are obviously many reasons why people have left CW but this one seems like the absolute easiest to fix....just hit the delete key.

Edited by Pat Kell, 15 July 2016 - 01:03 AM.

[Pat Kell]

Andi Nagasia, on 14 July 2016 - 06:43 PM, said:

so what your saying it it would be like 6SSRM6s hitting you 2.5times? every 4 minutes?

Lights and Mediums are fast Enough to get out of the way in time,
Heavies and Assaults would just Shrug it off, it would be Useless, at that point just remove it,

the LongTom Should Hurt, its an Incentive for you to Scout the Planet and Attack,
if you are getting hit with the LT you need to get an Active Scouting Party,
edit- Spelling

There simply has to be a better way to incentivize people to put in the effort to do scouting missions. Higher pay outs, give more loyalty/merc points, make a separate faction reward tree so that as you scout, you can earn free stuff such as you get as a loyalist or a merc...cuz lets face it, there are some who would rather get poked in the eye repeatedly than run scout missions.

Have more levels of scouting so that rather than just 3 levels, there are 6 or 9 and each one doesn't have to be unique but maybe strengthens a previous benefit by making it occur more often such as the satellite sweep. Heck, giving universal seismic as the highest reward would be awesome and difficult to overcome but at least you would feel like you have a chance. I know highly organized teams have been able to win against the long tom before but I can't imagine it's happen a lot. It's absolute no fun to a vast majority of people who play CW and the only ones who like it are the ones who struggle in invasion mode and need it as a crutch and the few highly organized teams out there who enjoy the challenge enough to go against just to see if they can beat it. That is not a good recipe for a healthy and vibrant CW.

Ryllen Kriel, on 14 July 2016 - 04:49 PM, said:

I don't care much about how the Long Tom is tweaked...as long as it can't hit me in the Quickplay queue then I'm not concerned.

This is why long tom is a problem....and should be a huge indicator of what people are doing.

SAVE CW- REMOVE LONG TOM

[R3av3r]

MischiefSC, on 13 July 2016 - 09:16 PM, said:

Okay. So it only cripples several mechs and kills one every 2 minutes, so 10 times in a fast 20 minute match.

Also that's every location on a mech that's exposed, so the 60 X arm, St, CT, leg. 240 damage. Again, even if it's only catching 2 mechs per drop at 100m each it's 4800 damage and some kills. That's talking about a team who is 100% coordinated, scattered and on the ball. Against a pug team is many times that.

It's a horrible, horrible mechanic. I don't want it for or against. The only reason anyone is playing FW is most units have agreed to stop scouting before 90% because they want to play the game -

Not play a mechanic designed to get half the population to stop playing and force the rest to ghost drop.

It's a terrible, terrible idea. It's a mechanic designed to for example people not to play. How is that sane?

People scout for the same reason they play conquest. It's what they enjoy. If you say everyone has to play 5 matches in Conquest to unlock one game in Skirmish, how would that work? How about every 10 votes game-wide for Conquest reduces odds of Skirmish being an option to pick by 5%? That way your ability to play what you want is controlled by randoms you'll never meet.

Isn't that fun?

No. It absolutely isnt. It's an experience that teaches you to hate Conquest, hate the randoms keeping you from playing what you want and hate PGI for doing something so foolish.

Oh, but wait! You should just learn to love playing Conquest! That's a solution, right?

No. Not at all. Most the IS players I know hate Scouting now specifically because they're forced to play it if they want to play FW.

This isn't hyperbole to say it's the most hate-inspiring mechanic I've ever seen in a game. It literally serves to make people not want to play FW. That's what it does. It doesn't make people say "I know! I'll go play something I don't want to play so I can unlock something I do want to play!" It doesn't make people say "I know! I'll go play at a catastrophic disadvantage because a bunch of pugs list scouting matches! That's fun and immersive!" It doesn't make people say "I know! I'll go play a FPS where an automated system will do 30% of the total damage and kills my team gets via random nuke drops, making my presence in a team v team FPS largely irrelevant, all because the other sides pugs lost some scouting matches!"

Even the most hardcore, dedicated FW teams have clearly stated that they hate it and want it gone. The people who like LT literally are not numerous enough to fill a single FW drop and most of them like it for troll value.

For the love of all that is holy, Andi, I'm begging you, get PGI to quit trolling us for wanting to play FW and remove LT.

If Scout queue can close and drive players out of invasion queue it's a terrible idea.

Please. Look at the player response. Look at the population impact on the queues. Make it stop. Quit punishing us for trying to play FW.

Holy. ****. This.

[R3av3r]

Brain Cancer, on 14 July 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

It's scouting. At 90%, we should have a perma-UAV effect covering the entire field for the side that basically owned scouting. ECM on the enemy side is automatically disabled as if jammed.

Being seen a mile away and always being "spotted" should be quite an advantage without nuking the field every few minutes.

Scouting should not do -anything- to an Invasion Match. There should not be separate modes that interact. The idea that some idiot in a game that I am not playing can absolutely RUIN the game that I am playing is moronic and terrible.

If you want to have scouting matter in Faction matches - have scouting objectives in the invasion game mode. Places of overwatch that need to be held. (Like mini-domination.) Hold that point for 20 seconds and you trigger a UAV pass. Every 20 seconds after is an additional UAV pass.

Ta-da. Now, if the enemy doesn't like it, they have to counter your play.

Nobody likes losing matches because someone else they DON'T KNOW - lost theirs.

I can't even speak elegantly about this because it's so ridiculously foolish that I can't summon the motivation to attack it elegantly.

[kesmai]

considering tt values and mwo armor values a 60/30/20 120m would have been the sweet spot.
this would still be a nice advantage.
i do not understand why pgi has such problem to understand what they are doing.

[Andi Nagasia]

MischiefSC, on 14 July 2016 - 07:56 PM, said:

So your argument is literally the exact same one used to justify broken IS/Clan balance for 2 years? "Yes, it's broken (in my favor) but you need to learn to work with it anyway because that's hardmode".

That argument is terrible.

You're saying that yes, absolutely, FW is controlled from the scout queue and the 4man queue is supposed to close the 12man queue.

So the event clearly pointed out the balance issues for pug v pug matches in scout queue but, of course, we need to just scout more, right? Mind-control the pugs over every IS faction who come and lose 90% of matches scouting Steiner/CJF border because it's the only active front?

Or just do what hundreds have done already and quit.

There is no surprise at all to see the CJF tag next to your name. The only people in any thread who've posted in favor of the mechanic (including yourself a total of 5 people I can identify) are people who are amazingly and coincidentally people advantaged by the broken mechanic.

I'll link all the other disorganized terribads who hate LT to your post, like all of MS, Pat Kell, pretty much every single good unit still in FW and let them know that identifying what a horrible game mechanic LT is just means they're no good at the game and need to leave FW.

Your argument holds absolutely no water. The problem is that A) it makes scouting the basis of all Faction Warfare. You have to be winning Scouting to play Invasion. Scouting balance is terrible. Tough luck, that's how it's supposed to be apparently. B ) Winning at Scouting means you have a mechanic that auto-destroys your enemies so you get less pay and less play even when they do show up. C) Because almost everyone hates the mechanic almost everyone has quit playing FW.

I feel crazy for having to say this like somehow it's not self evident:

If a game mechanic makes people quit playing the game the game mechanic is bad.

So you'd rather nobody play FW than fix a bad mechanic because it's broken in your favor?

That's terrible.

how is it broken in my Favor?
1) is it because im in JadeFalcon? and they are the only Clan with Actual Groud,
(this doesnt matter in the Slightest, i could be in Any House/Clan and have the same thoughts)
2) is it because im in a Unit? and Units seem to Control a Good Majority of FW?
(anyone can Organize and form a Group, thats what LFG was created for)

Nether of these Above Matter on the Grounds of how much ones concerns Matter,
this is much like people T5 saying(i see a Problem with XYZ) and a T1 saying(well your T5 So you dont know)
or a T5 Player Saying back(well you T1 just dont want to Live with out your Crutch Tech should i Get Gud?)
What group i belong too should not matter, im not at more Advantage then anyone else,
Every FW player has the same Tools, so i have no Advantage over anyone,

now if your saying that im at advantage because i like to Organize and talk Stigmatize?
then yes, i am at an advantage, this is a team based game, the better you work as a team,
the more your team will win, and the easier it will be for you and your Team to Adapt,


i never called anyone Disorganized Terrabads, even in group Que an 8Man can be Rolled,
if the 4 man doesnt something Adventurous and get into a Bat Position, and get killed,
again im not Avocating for LongTom to stay as it is, i just not Agreeing on its removal,


also how is scouting balance Terrible? SkillCrows?
because if your ganna say SkillCrows mean Clan will most likely win, you need to Observe the other 3 Clans,
because it doesnt look like them are doing much but losing alot, IS has many Mechs that are Great in Scouting,


I agree that things need to Change, Perhaps im wrong and LongTom needs to be removed,
but i still think it has its place, if not in the last 15% of the Scouting Bar than Perhaps in the last 1-5%,

R3av3r, on 15 July 2016 - 04:49 AM, said:

Scouting should not do -anything- to an Invasion Match. There should not be separate modes that interact. The idea that some idiot in a game that I am not playing can absolutely RUIN the game that I am playing is moronic and terrible.

If you want to have scouting matter in Faction matches - have scouting objectives in the invasion game mode. Places of overwatch that need to be held. (Like mini-domination.) Hold that point for 20 seconds and you trigger a UAV pass. Every 20 seconds after is an additional UAV pass.

Ta-da. Now, if the enemy doesn't like it, they have to counter your play.

Nobody likes losing matches because someone else they DON'T KNOW - lost theirs.

I can't even speak elegantly about this because it's so ridiculously foolish that I can't summon the motivation to attack it elegantly.

because a mode based around being Dynamic and having several Zones should only Focus on one battle?
they added Scouting to be a Dynamic mode with Invasion, and i think its a good mode and fun to play,
-
yes nobody like to miss their Goal because some one else screwed up, but thats how Invasion Plays sometimes,
you could be fully organized and win Every Invasion Match and Still lose the Planet, Why?
because others in your Faction could be losing more matches then your Winning,
thats just another part of Invasion mode,