72 replies to this topic

[Spetulhu]

ScarecrowES, on 14 July 2016 - 07:36 PM, said:

Remember that there was a marked difference in behavior between the Wardens and the Crusaders, and this played out very clearly during the Invasion. Best not to lump all "Clans" into the same category.

True enough that they went about it a bit differently. The Smoke Jaguars were perhaps the most brutal in suppressing the locals, finally resorting to orbital bombardment of population centers, while others tried to be more patient. But IIRC even the ever-patient Ghost Bears had to at least threaten orbital bombardment to stop uprisings on some occupied FRR worlds. The clans simply lacked the means to understand how someone would be unhappy at having a new overlord when the matter had already "been settled" through conquest.

[Metus regem]

Spetulhu, on 15 July 2016 - 08:09 AM, said:

True enough that they went about it a bit differently. The Smoke Jaguars were perhaps the most brutal in suppressing the locals, finally resorting to orbital bombardment of population centers, while others tried to be more patient. But IIRC even the ever-patient Ghost Bears had to at least threaten orbital bombardment to stop uprisings on some occupied FRR worlds. The clans simply lacked the means to understand how someone would be unhappy at having a new overlord when the matter had already "been settled" through conquest.

Ghost Bears never threatened orbital bombardment, they would pull front line forces to go and re secure territory... That being said, Ghost Bear preferred capture over kill for IS pilots. Another funny note about the Ghost Bears, they put moving to the IS to a vote with in the clan, and every clansmen/clanswoman (warrior cast right down to labor cast) had a say in that vote.

[Adridos]

Here, a great intro for the unitiated by SirDubDub.

[ScarecrowES]

This is another part of lore that really has to be explored to understand the Clan Invasion Era... the differences between the Clans themselves.

It could be argued that the Inner Sphere houses, as a whole, have more in common to each other than many of the Clans have to each other. While Clan culture and societal organization is common across all Clans in a vague, overarching way, the way this is expressed in each Clan is very different.

For some, the concept of "subjugation" of "lower" castes simply doesn't exist. Wardens tend to have much more lax societies than Crusaders. Wolf and Ghost Bear are good examples of more equal status across all castes. Hell, Diamond Shark (also Warden) places emphasis on the Merchant caste... that's unheard of throughout the rest of the Clans.

The Warden faction never wanted to invade the Sphere in the first place - folks should remember that. And once Invasion had started, the Warden emphasis was on capturing and protecting territory. If you were a Spheroid in the Wolf or Ghost Bear attack corridors, you were MUCH better off than if you were in the Jag or Falcon corridors. In fact, for many territories, life after the Wardens passed through was much improved.

It also should be remembered that relations between the invading Warden Clans and the IS was so good, that several of them eventually made permanent homes within the Sphere and later stood on the side of the Sphere against further Clan aggression. Wolf-in-Exile was granted territory from Steiner to form the Arc-Royal Defense Cordon with the Kell Hounds and stood as a buffer between Steiner and Jade Falcon. Ghost Bear and the FRR eventually formed a joint nation-state. And Nova Cat found so much in common with the Draconis Combine that they absorbed themselves into the Combine and lead the push against Smoke Jag at the end of the Invasion that eventually resulted in that Clan's destruction.

[Spetulhu]

Metus regem, on 15 July 2016 - 08:13 AM, said:

Ghost Bears never threatened orbital bombardment, they would pull front line forces to go and re secure territory...

No, I'm sure they did once they really got fed up with constant rebellions requiring them to reposition front-line units. Though it might have been mentioned only as the last option in the CGB "listen up people" speech. Admitedly it's long since I read those sourcebooks...

[Dathcha the Jawa Adventurer]

The initial portion of the Clan Invasion is mostly the Peloponnesian Wars in space, with a few changes. The actors are very much as follows:
Clans = Peloponnesian League
IS = Delian League

But the overall planet holdings looks a bit more like the Punic Wars in timing once you get into the IS counterattack and push towards the Clan homeworlds. But the Roman/Carthaginian liknesses do not hold up as well, which is why I still think the big influence was Greek war history rather than Roman.

[Metus regem]

Spetulhu, on 15 July 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

No, I'm sure they did once they really got fed up with constant rebellions requiring them to reposition front-line units. Though it might have been mentioned only as the last option in the CGB "listen up people" speech. Admitedly it's long since I read those sourcebooks...

No to my knowledge, the only time that was done (and carried out) was by CSJ at Turtle Bay. Ghost Bears, yes they got annoyed with the rebellions, but after they started to capture higher end leaders in the FRR military, they started to change their tactics to "Knock less **** down, build more **** up!"

CGB brought health care, education and industry to their conquered captured popular of the FRR, SaKahn Theresa DelVillar saw to the start of that practice of capture over kill during the retaking of Thule. This also started the practice of a greater than average number of bondsmen becoming clansmen over time in CGB.

[xVLFBERHxT]

ScarecrowES, on 15 July 2016 - 10:17 AM, said:

And Nova Cat found so much in common with the Draconis Combine that they absorbed themselves into the Combine and lead the push against Smoke Jag at the end of the Invasion that eventually resulted in that Clan's destruction.

Clan Nova Cat had a vision about the new SLDF. As a result, they fought not against task force serpent on their way to Diana.

The total annihilation of the clan smoke jaguar, by taskforce serpent was carried out without clan forces, like clan wolf in exile. Only innere sphere forces took part in the battles, simply to show them, that the innere sphere could defend it self on her own.

Clan nova cat led nothing.

Kurita gave the fleeing Nova cats a place to escape the destructions by the rest of the clans

Edited by TrapJaw80, 15 July 2016 - 11:53 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

Metus regem, on 15 July 2016 - 10:49 AM, said:

No to my knowledge, the only time that was done (and carried out) was by CSJ at Turtle Bay. Ghost Bears, yes they got annoyed with the rebellions, but after they started to capture higher end leaders in the FRR military, they started to change their tactics to "Knock less **** down, build more **** up!"

CGB brought health care, education and industry to their conquered captured popular of the FRR, SaKahn Theresa DelVillar saw to the start of that practice of capture over kill during the retaking of Thule. This also started the practice of a greater than average number of bondsmen becoming clansmen over time in CGB.

Noting, of course, that Ghost Bear started the Invasion largely aligning with the Crusader philosophy but turned full Warden by the time of the Truce of Tukkayyid in 3053. This was due, in no small part, to their shared camaraderie with the FRR.

[Yellonet]

I never want to play evil characters in games, that's why I don't like or play clans. But obviously there are many players that like playing evil characters in any number of games.
Sometimes I wonder if these are the people that would support a fascist regime committing crimes against humanity.

[ScarecrowES]

TrapJaw80, on 15 July 2016 - 11:44 AM, said:

Clan Nova Cat had a vision about the new SLDF. As a result, they fought not against task force serpent on their way to Diana.

The total annihilation of the clan smoke jaguar, by taskforce serpent was carried out without clan forces, like clan wolf in exile. Only innere sphere forces took part in the battles, simply to show them, that the innere sphere could defend it self on her own.
Clan nova cat led nothing,

http://www.sarna.net...eration_Bulldog

Both WiE and NC took part in the the annhilation of CSJ as a part of Operation Bulldog. In fact, the Nova Cat mech first saw combat against CSJ forces in the hands of Nova Cat pilots on the side of the Inner Sphere during Bulldog.

Operations Bulldog was a sweeping military operation, of which Task Force Serpent was only the smallest part. The main forces of OB, of which both WiE and NC were a large part, were focused on pushing CSJ out of their conquered territories and back to their homeworld of Huntress. Task Force Serpent operated more like a special operations detachment whose job it was to go directly to Huntress in secret and begin the attempt to capture the planet. This would draw Smoke Jag forces away from the main battle lines to defend their homeworld while Bulldog as a whole pushed from the Inner Sphere and out to Clan space to finally relieve Task Force Serpent at Huntress.

Without both Wolf-in-Exile and Nova Cat being on board with Bulldog, the Inner Sphere would not have had the success they did, and Bulldog would likely have ended in failure.

It should also be noted that Nova Cat also participated in the Great Refusal on behalf of the Inner Sphere. The Great Refusal being the massive combat trial that eventually officially ended the Clan Invasion in 3060. It was the only Inner Sphere Clan allowed to fight in the Trial of Refusal against further Clan aggression, with Ghost Bear abstaining (as did all other Wardens), and Wolf-in-Exile not participating (I don't know if this was because they were Warden, or if the Clans refused their participation because they had been already abjured at this point).

[ScarecrowES]

Yellonet, on 15 July 2016 - 11:59 AM, said:

I never want to play evil characters in games, that's why I don't like or play clans. But obviously there are many players that like playing evil characters in any number of games.
Sometimes I wonder if these are the people that would support a fascist regime committing crimes against humanity.

Davion be all like... "no, you guys go ahead and fight it out. We're just going to sit over here and watch. And maybe commit some anti-asian atrocities while we're at it. We haven't decided yet."

[xVLFBERHxT]

ScarecrowES, on 15 July 2016 - 12:05 PM, said:

http://www.sarna.net...eration_Bulldog

Both WiE and NC took part in the the annhilation of CSJ as a part of Operation Bulldog. In fact, the Nova Cat mech first saw combat against CSJ forces in the hands of Nova Cat pilots on the side of the Inner Sphere during Bulldog.

Operations Bulldog was a sweeping military operation, of which Task Force Serpent was only the smallest part. The main forces of OB, of which both WiE and NC were a large part, were focused on pushing CSJ out of their conquered territories and back to their homeworld of Huntress. Task Force Serpent operated more like a special operations detachment whose job it was to go directly to Huntress in secret and begin the attempt to capture the planet. This would draw Smoke Jag forces away from the main battle lines to defend their homeworld while Bulldog as a whole pushed from the Inner Sphere and out to Clan space to finally relieve Task Force Serpent at Huntress.

Without both Wolf-in-Exile and Nova Cat being on board with Bulldog, the Inner Sphere would not have had the success they did, and Bulldog would likely have ended in failure.

It should also be noted that Nova Cat also participated in the Great Refusal on behalf of the Inner Sphere. The Great Refusal being the massive combat trial that eventually officially ended the Clan Invasion in 3060. It was the only Inner Sphere Clan allowed to fight in the Trial of Refusal against further Clan aggression, with Ghost Bear abstaining (as did all other Wardens), and Wolf-in-Exile not participating (I don't know if this was because they were Warden, or if the Clans refused their participation because they had been already abjured at this point).

ok

[dervishx5]

CLAN WOLF-IN-EXILE? CLAN NOVA CAT?

I SEE NO CLANS HERE.

[FalconerGray]

Yellonet, on 15 July 2016 - 11:59 AM, said:

I never want to play evil characters in games, that's why I don't like or play clans. But obviously there are many players that like playing evil characters in any number of games.
Sometimes I wonder if these are the people that would support a fascist regime committing crimes against humanity.

As I said before, it's all about perspective. To me, the Clans aren't 'evil' and in the context of this setting (the endless sprawl of space), their culture and society is quite effective in keeping a consistent standard across a galactic population. Governing a nation across the vastness of space is far more complicated than what we're used to on our little rock. If you ever get the chance, read the Foundation series, which provides some very clear inspirations for the BT universe and is a wonderfully detailed example of how difficult keeping a nation spanning thousands upon thousands of planets really is.

I also don't identify with the concept of 'great houses' and 'royal families'. So much death, combat and pure waste - in a society that can afford very little to none of those things - all thanks to the childish personal quarrels of individuals. "We're going to war with that guy because he looked at my wife funny. Go forth and die for my own personal vendetta!"

Again, that's just my perspective. I identify more with the Clans than the Houses and believe that in the context of nations spread across thousands of worlds, that their society appears more sensible and effective to me. But this is entirely the point of why the BT universe is so fantastic - because we all see different things in it. It's brilliant.

[Metus regem]

ScarecrowES, on 15 July 2016 - 11:48 AM, said:

Noting, of course, that Ghost Bear started the Invasion largely aligning with the Crusader philosophy but turned full Warden by the time of the Truce of Tukkayyid in 3053. This was due, in no small part, to their shared camaraderie with the FRR.

One finds that CGB's stanc changes with the Khan and SaKhan more than the actual mood of the clan... also interning note about CGB, it is one of the few clans that has no animosity between Warden and Crusader camps with in the clan.

[Metus regem]

Yellonet, on 15 July 2016 - 11:59 AM, said:

I never want to play evil characters in games, that's why I don't like or play clans. But obviously there are many players that like playing evil characters in any number of games.
Sometimes I wonder if these are the people that would support a fascist regime committing crimes against humanity.

Good
Evil
Right
Wrong
Beauty
Ugly

All of those things are a matter of perspective.

Were the Inca and Mayan cultures evil for practicing human sacrifice? No, they were just different, as I'm sure Europeans were to them.

So to is it with the Clans, they are not really evil (well CSJ are complete jag-offs, but that is a side issue), they are just different. But I do find it somewhat hypocritical of the Crusader cause to want to conquer the IS to rule it as a new Star League, just as the IS Houses did in the beaning. The Wardens on the other hand, were more along the lines of, if something outside of the IS invades the IS, then we will come to their aid.

[MischiefSC]

Slavery, facism, eugenics.

Even the "nice" Clans largely ruled by thread of annihilation and force of arms = leadership.

The only exceptions were the one who acted like and joined the Inner Sphere.

[ScarecrowES]

Metus regem, on 15 July 2016 - 12:31 PM, said:

One finds that CGB's stanc changes with the Khan and SaKhan more than the actual mood of the clan... also interning note about CGB, it is one of the few clans that has no animosity between Warden and Crusader camps with in the clan.

Ghost Bear is pretty notable for going their own way. When Operation Bulldog came around, even though Ghost Bear hadn't officially gave up their stake in the Clan homeworlds and joined the Inner Sphere at that point, they basically said "Naw." They sat the whole rest of the war and didn't pick up the sword again until they went to war with the DCMS.

[Coralld]

legatoblues, on 15 July 2016 - 12:30 PM, said:

As I said before, it's all about perspective. To me, the Clans aren't 'evil' and in the context of this setting (the endless sprawl of space), their culture and society is quite effective in keeping a consistent standard across a galactic population. Governing a nation across the vastness of space is far more complicated than what we're used to on our little rock. If you ever get the chance, read the Foundation series, which provides some very clear inspirations for the BT universe and is a wonderfully detailed example of how difficult keeping a nation spanning thousands upon thousands of planets really is.

I also don't identify with the concept of 'great houses' and 'royal families'. So much death, combat and pure waste - in a society that can afford very little to none of those things - all thanks to the childish personal quarrels of individuals. "We're going to war with that guy because he looked at my wife funny. Go forth and die for my own personal vendetta!"

Again, that's just my perspective. I identify more with the Clans than the Houses and believe that in the context of nations spread across thousands of worlds, that their society appears more sensible and effective to me. But this is entirely the point of why the BT universe is so fantastic - because we all see different things in it. It's brilliant.

So your pro space Fascism. Got it. Now that does not mean you have to support an aristocracy or a feudal system such as kings and the like with the great houses. I my self identify far more with the Periphery state's then I do either the Houses or Clan. Constitutional republics are more my thing.
The only IS powers I can say are more to what I identify with would be the FRR or the early Free Worlds League before they went to feudalism.

Edited by Coralld, 15 July 2016 - 12:47 PM.