72 replies to this topic

[ScarecrowES]

Metus regem, on 15 July 2016 - 12:38 PM, said:

But I do find it somewhat hypocritical of the Crusader cause to want to conquer the IS to rule it as a new Star League, just as the IS Houses did in the beaning. The Wardens on the other hand, were more along the lines of, if something outside of the IS invades the IS, then we will come to their aid.

The conflicted teachings of two different Kerenskys... Aleksandr and Nicholas. One saw the best of the humanity they brought out of the Sphere, the other saw the worst.

We Wardens embody the hope of the Father. Crusaders embody the hate of the Son.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 15 July 2016 - 01:06 PM.

[the hedgehog]

just waiting...

[dervishx5]

Kerensky, whatever.

All that matters is Andrews.

PURGE THE TAINTED.

[ScarecrowES]

the hedgehog, on 15 July 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

just waiting...

How dare you, sir?!

[Coralld]

ScarecrowES, on 15 July 2016 - 12:44 PM, said:

The conflicted teachings of two different Kerenskys... Alexander and Nicholas. One saw the best of the humanity they brought out of the Sphere, the other saw the worst.

We Wardens embody the hope of the Father. Crusaders embody the hate of the Son.

So true.

Oh that last bit, I like that, mind if I use that? Its so profound.

[ScarecrowES]

Coralld, on 15 July 2016 - 12:54 PM, said:

So true.

Oh that last bit, I like that, mind if I use that? Its so profound.

Sure. So much truth about Clan culture in such a small statement.

[Coralld]

ScarecrowES, on 15 July 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

Sure. So much truth about Clan culture in such a small statement.

Not so much culture but deffenetly about their political philosophy.

[ScarecrowES]

The Hidden Hope Doctrine

General Order 137
Aleksandr Kerensky
5 October, 2785

"Return to the Inner Sphere is impossible for us. Our heritage and our convictions are different from those we left behind. The greed of the five Great Houses and the Council Lords is a disease that can only be burned away by the passing of decades, even centuries. And though the fighting may seem to slow, or even cease, it will erupt again as long as there are powerful men to covet one another's wealth. We shall live apart, conserving all the good of the Star League and ridding ourselves of the bad, so that when we return — and return we shall — our shining moral character will be as much our shield as our BattleMechs and fighters."

Subjugate or enlighten? Sword or shield? The difference in interpretation of the Hidden Hope Doctrine is what lead to the division in Clan culture between the Crusader and Warden causes. When we return to our ancestral home, do we return as conquerors or liberators?

[dervishx5]

Well... neither. Because Warden or Crusader, you failed to subdue the Inner Sphere. In fact after a while, many of you joined it.

ggnore

[ScarecrowES]

dervishx5, on 15 July 2016 - 01:07 PM, said:

Well... neither. Because Warden or Crusader, you failed to subdue the Inner Sphere. In fact after a while, many of you joined it.

ggnore

You betray the perspective of your masters.

The Nova Cats might disagree with you here. After hundreds of years of wars in the Inner Sphere, the Clan Invasion united the Houses and States of the Sphere and resulted in the forming of a new Star League. It was their vision of a united Inner Sphere that caused the Cats to join the DCMS.

Wolf and Ghost Bear would argue against this point of view as well, as would Diamond Shark and several other Clans.

When the Jihad began, many of the Clans fought in defense of the Sphere.

You could say the Warden perspective of the Hidden Hope Doctrine had been fulfilled.

Edited by ScarecrowES, 15 July 2016 - 01:20 PM.

[Coralld]

dervishx5, on 15 July 2016 - 01:07 PM, said:

Well... neither. Because Warden or Crusader, you failed to subdue the Inner Sphere. In fact after a while, many of you joined it.

ggnore

The Wardens didn't want to invade the IS. In fact, If the Comm Star deep space exploration ship had not of bumped into the Clans, the Clans would have voted against the invasion in a land slide.
But the rising popularity of the Crusader philosophy, who used fear and manipulation of the incident to get the vote reversed in their favor. They said it was an advance military scout ship meant to seek them out when in truth it was nothing more then a science vessel that had little to no weapons on it.

[dervishx5]

I suppose you could look at it that way.

But protection is relative given the chaos of the century following the Invasion.

As far as I'm concerned, Blessed Blake and Wise Toyama won out in the end.

[Metus regem]

ScarecrowES, on 15 July 2016 - 12:41 PM, said:

Ghost Bear is pretty notable for going their own way. When Operation Bulldog came around, even though Ghost Bear hadn't officially gave up their stake in the Clan homeworlds and joined the Inner Sphere at that point, they basically said "Naw." They sat the whole rest of the war and didn't pick up the sword again until they went to war with the DCMS.

That "War" with the DCMS, was the fault of the DCMS. Four regiments calling themselves the Alshain Avengers thought it would be a great idea to take their frigate and attack the Domnion capital world of Alshain, and they did so with out the blessing of the DCMS... Thing is their frigate was no match for Ghost Bear Fleet assests, once planet side, well things only went from bad to worse for the Avengers....

[the hedgehog]

ScarecrowES, on 15 July 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

How dare you, sir?!

Our time will come.

[dervishx5]

Metus regem, on 15 July 2016 - 01:30 PM, said:

That "War" with the DCMS, was the fault of the DCMS. Four regiments calling themselves the Alshain Avengers thought it would be a great idea to take their frigate and attack the Domnion capital world of Alshain, and they did so with out the blessing of the DCMS... Thing is their frigate was no match for Ghost Bear Fleet assests, once planet side, well things only went from bad to worse for the Avengers....

Well, technically, it wasn't the DCMS, it was the RED DUKE and his ilk that infested the DCMS.

[Metus regem]

Coralld, on 15 July 2016 - 01:27 PM, said:

The Wardens didn't want to invade the IS. In fact, If the Comm Star deep space exploration ship had not of bumped into the Clans, the Clans would have voted against the invasion in a land slide.
But the rising popularity of the Crusader philosophy, who used fear and manipulation of the incident to get the vote reversed in their favor. They said it was an advance military scout ship meant to seek them out when in truth it was nothing more then a science vessel that had little to no weapons on it.

Heh, you should read a report one of my TT characters wrote to his superior about the planned invasion of the IS, he all but called it stupid. Even went so far as to accuse the IlKhan being less than honest... That charcter died during the invasion, but damn did he fight like hell to do the right thing, and was Warden right to the bitter ugly end.

[Metus regem]

dervishx5, on 15 July 2016 - 01:32 PM, said:

Well, technically, it wasn't the DCMS, it was the RED DUKE and his ilk that infested the DCMS.

Nope it was the Black Dragon Society, also known as the Kokuryu-kai, the idea was the force the hand of the Coordinator to push the DCMS to take all the worlds lost to Clan Ghost Bear... problem was, Clan Ghost Bear hit the DCMS hard and fast, and would've won had CHH not hit them from behind.

[dervishx5]

Metus regem, on 15 July 2016 - 01:39 PM, said:

Nope it was the Black Dragon Society, also known as the Kokuryu-kai, the idea was the force the hand of the Coordinator to push the DCMS to take all the worlds lost to Clan Ghost Bear... problem was, Clan Ghost Bear hit the DCMS hard and fast, and would've won had CHH not hit them from behind.

I don't like being this guy anymore, BUT:

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hassid_Ricol

A tall and heavy-set man, Hassid Alexander Ricol, Duke of Chekaar and Rodigo[, was an influential Draconis Combine noble of House Ricol and a MechWarrior. He was known as the Red Duke for his flamboyant and usually red wardrobe, and as a MechWarrior was known throughout the Successor States as the Red Hunter. Within a conspirator ring in the Rasalhague Military District and later the secret Black Dragon Society (Kokuryu-kai), both of which used gemstone codenames, Ricol used the alias 'Ruby'.

By 3062, Duke Ricol liked to sit on a favorite bench in Peace Park, Newbury, on Dieron, still planning and scheming for the Kokuryu-kai. His hair and beard had grown white. Ricol mentioned at one point that he had discontinued the use of "a most ostentatious uniform" and that it was his visible age that now commanded respect in the Combine's society. Although he had not used the appellation Red Hunter (or hanta akai) in decades, he took the name again in 3062 when he planned and prepared Operation Batsu, the attack of the Alshain Avengers on Alshain that would instigate the Combine-Ghost Bear War.

So just to be clear, we're talking about the same thing.

[Spetulhu]

Yellonet, on 15 July 2016 - 11:59 AM, said:

I never want to play evil characters in games, that's why I don't like or play clans.

But that's the thing, the clanners don't see themself as evil. Sure, they have a caste-based society when the warriors rule, but is that in the end so very different from an Inner Sphere where hereditary nobles rule by virtue of giving their rulers military service? In both societies you have to be very lucky and skilled to get into the ruling class if you weren't born to be one of them. The IS nobles think they protect those sworn to them just as Clan warriors see themself as the stewards of the lower castes. Neither of them would ordinarily care overmuch what the lower classes think.

Ofc, if someone roleplays a clanner who looks down on all others then that might be an evil character. Especially if he refuses to even attempt negotiations before starting hostilities or doesn't give defeated enemies quarter.

[dervishx5]

I have to throw some Godwin out here: the naazis didn't think of themselves as evil either.

Edited by dervishx5, 15 July 2016 - 02:43 PM.