29 replies to this topic

[Spike Brave]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 18 July 2016 - 12:20 AM, said:

Thanks, talking about detailed here.
We got other of timeline mechs (X-5 for example is a prototype and the 3F which is based on it isn't from our current timeline as well)

When you said the first run Bushwackers are battle'mech did you meant those with engine problems or those build after vulture schematics?

I think it's funny to think that the playerbase shouldn't dictate the lore bur the map. Yet, they are doing the very same thing by throwing timeline and lore out of order when it comes to new mechs.
I get that PGI needs to add sellingpoints to their shop but knocking FP over the border of Tukayyid is a bit too much considering it was supposed to be a major pilar of the game.

First Wave of invasion is over, Truce of Tukayyid is in place yet jade falcon is knocking at davions border, timeline doesn't mean a thing, mechs without tech, tech without mechs, but hey...

..would you like to buy a mechpack?

First off let me apologize. The crack about having two banners was about PGI being somewhat loose with the timeline. It occur to me that the way I wrote it, you may have been offened or thought I was being combative with you. That was not my intent and I should have been more clear. Again I apologize.

The first run I mentioned are the ones after the correction based on the clan tech. So late 3052 for completed assembly and deliverly to the clan front in 3053.

As far as timeline, I have a few thoughts. I'm okay with any mech that fits the current tech stack. So anything up to and including TRO 3058 for Inner Sphere for sure. TRO 3060 for older clan mechs like some of the IIC that we already have. Also I would consider anything in the "offical" timeline after the start of the Clan Invasion to be okay to change in the "MWO" timeline. Three factors lead me to this. First, MWO started life as Mecwarrior 5 and was meant to be a reboot of the franchise as stated by the creator of BattleTech. Jordan Weisman is involved with the creation of MWO. Secondly alternate timelines do exist in BattleTech lore. Check out the Empires Aflame supplement in which the Exodus never happened. While the creators have stated that the events AFTER the misjump aren't canon, that means a misjump to an alternate timeline is possible. Finally they need to make money. I'd rather have a few out time mechs then other means of monetization. They've done a great job of avoiding pay to win using this model and I'd like to see that continue.

I'd also like to add that keeping to lore is rather hard. People tend to cherry pick what they like, which is fine. It's a game so pick the things that are fun. If we stick to lore that means random hit locations for direct fire weapons. I think that wouldn't be the only one upset with that. There is also the matter of Zellbrigen. I've not seen that even after a proper Batchall. Really Zell boils down to one target, no focused fire, no going to cover, no disenaging from your target, and you must fire all avaliable weapons. I'd also think some of the hardline Crusaders, like the Falcons and the Jaguars, would find torso twisting to be forbidden. I'm okay with making some lore concessions in order to have a fun game.

[Jingseng]

Speaking as a long time game player.... it's absolutely necessary to make concessions, period, when you take a game online (or to another medium).

I used to play the BT boardgame. The old school stuff. The mechsheet had a missing circle on one side old stuff. The top gun was a boardgame too stuff.

There are already huge changes from both lore and rules. Lorewise? Elite pilots were in the assaults, and they were expected not to backline baby them. Newbies pulled the lights. But you can't do it that way on an online game, where people want to spend money - people aren't looking to work their way up the ranks.

Cockpits were cramped. Heat was as much a danger to the pilot as to the mech itself. Cockpits in MWO are spacious, not claustrophobic. You view through glass, and not monitors only. And of course, there is no way to properly translate the physical effect of heat and sweat and burning air onto a player. But SRM2 inferno launchers and flamers were, lorewise, a real terror... smelling yourself cooking to death in a metal coffin? Maybe if you were a cannibal, that might be lovely. The original rules also allowed for damage to the pilots, which could incap a mech with enough light attacks to the head (but not totally shooting it off).

But also, the height scale differences between the lightest mechs and the rest is a little ridiculous. I get it. It's 'balance' and survivability (because it's not fun being dead). That's a concession. But when my cockpit is the size of your locust or ACH, it makes me wonder what sort of wee leprechaun is piloting that thing.

Along with that, lights in lore never took on a heavy or assault if they had the option to flee. Ever. Those light weapons aren't cracking that armor in any kind of meaningful way. But in MWO, armor and Internal values are altered (generally higher; because dying too quickly is not fun), damage values are raised (so it's not pay to win, hopeless, etc.), and ammo capacities are higher (because you suck at aiming, we get it. I mean it's lag. All lag.)

Moreover, an entire other component of battletech is missing! Piloting and physical combat. Skidding (no one seems to think about a 25+ ton giant robot going 100+ KPH making a tight radius turn without skidding the slightest to be weird), falling (and damage)... crashing into (or through) a building, charging another mech (the in game damage is way, way, way lighter... because the pilots on your own team suck)... punching (one fist or two, full arm actuators or not), kicking (yes kicking!), Death From Above, using a shot of limb or building material as impromptu club... these are all missing.

And the hitboxes? You can shoot what is inarguably the head of a mech in game, but not register damage to the head location due to obscure, tiny hitboxes... because otehrwise, we'd all be headshotting the crap out of each other, and that;s not fun.

Dungeons and Dragons Online, incidentally, faced similar issues. D&D was about role playing, solving things... but online games are about killing tons of things for exp and loot. You would never have that many hitpoints in a true-to-rules/lore game, or face that many enemies, etc.

So there are always concessions to be made. You can think of the 'mechwarrior' part as theme and branding... but it isn't (and can't be) the same game. There are going to be times when it is absolutely proper to break away and 'do your own thing' to allow the game to grow and evolve... rather than sticking steadfast to rules and lore that applied to an entirely different medium and gameplay type.

tldr - boo bushwhacker. Also, just because you liked it in some other game by some other dev doesn't mean you are going to like it in this game by this dev.

Edit: didn't even touch on firing patterns and hardpoint limitations and quirks. Anyway, I think the devs are doing a good job.

Edited by Jingseng, 18 July 2016 - 09:15 PM.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

^ you have a lot of "obsolete" lore that was by and large ret-coned out of BT by the 90s, such as the monitor thing,.

[TooDumbToQuit]

Would the Wasp and Stinger be legal? If so, why are they not here already.

[JC Daxion]

I agree, would love a bushwacker! But it is something to look forward to in the future

[Spike Brave]

LikeUntoGod, on 19 July 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

Would the Wasp and Stinger be legal? If so, why are they not here already.

Yes. We have several of the other unseen from Harmony Gold set, such as the Warhammer, Marauder, and Archer. I wager that the reason we don't have them is because they are so small that PGI doesn't see them as much of a prority as larger mechs that are just as popular.

If you don't know about the unseen check out the whole Harmony Gold v Fasa lawsuit on Google. Interesting side note, after the most recent cases involving Hasbro and another invloving a movie studio, it looks like HG may not have the rights they've been claiming.

[Natural Predator]

All mechs I would love to see before 3058 mechs.

Javelin
Valkyrie
Crusader
Thug
Sentinel
Stone rhino
Peregrine
Hellhound
Anvil
Black lanner
Bombardier
Caesar
Clint
Dervish
Devastator
Enfield
Exterminator
Falconer
Flash man
Gallowglas
Grand Titan
Grizzly
Guillotine
Gunslinger
Hermes
Imp
Jackal
Mongoose
Nightsky
Penetrator
Pillager
Shootist
Spartan
Stealth
Starslayer
Supernova
Thanatos
War dog
Whitworth
Wolf trap


All mechs I think have the potential to be part of the game. All sub 3058

[Jingseng]

IMHO, 'retcon' is [expletive of choice]. I would look on it far more favorably if they'd simply said "look, we know canon was this, but we're breaking with it, and that is that." Saying instead "OHHH actuallllly what you didn't know was..." is [expletive of choice gerund form] [noun of choice]. 'Obsolete lore' is what gave rise to this game you have here in the first place - it wouldn't be here without it.

As for teh stigner and wasp, it's questionable. It's a fine line that PGI is walking adimrably - because those iconic classic designs are not FASA/battletech's. They were licensed from the IP holder from Robotech. That would include the Stinger, Wasp, Phoenix hawk, shadowhawk, griffin, wolverine, crusader, rifle man, ostol, ostroc, warhammer, marauder, archer, and battlemaster . I'm probably leaving some out. It also includes the VTOL mechs (iirc; but I don't think we stand a chance of seeing those in game, ever). At some point the license was revoked, i think, which lead to messy legal battles (particularly as those destroids were never as popular in robotech as they had become in battletech). This no doubt contributed to the fall of fasa (although trends away from table top gaming due to the advent of PC and console certainly had a greater effect). Which itself complicated matters as to rights. IIRC, some/most of those mechs are conspicuously absent from the PC games.

Part of what fasa did was to create similar designs, which largely became the Clan IIc and Clan omnimech designs. PGI has taken a similar line in creating versions of the PHX, SHD, MAD, WHM, BLR, ARC, etc. that are not quite identical, but heavily inspired and influenced by the originals. I'm a fan of what they have produced.

Whether or not they will do stingers and wasps is questionable imho, as a business decision. Those are both light mechs, not very different armed from the locust (or each other)... and the phx and shd are already in game. So they wouldn't really contribute that much in terms of flavor/look or mech options. They'd only really be collector mechs in the return of an icon line.

Still, I'd love to see the rest of the IIc designs (particularly locust, phoenix hawk, and marauder II), as well as the crusader (which arguably, falls victim to the same reasonings as that of the wasp and stinger).

[KhanBhacKeD]

Sorry guys to told you that... but does this topic have to be in "New Player Help"... Try to ask if it could be move to "features suggestions" cause I don't understand in wich way this subject can help.

And to be in the subject... not the bushwacker plz... I think we should have many Over mech before this one (crusader, hermes...)

Edited by Uan Harox, 20 July 2016 - 03:38 AM.

[Metus regem]

Toha Heavy Industries, on 17 July 2016 - 01:23 PM, said:

I am not even sure if the bushwacker with omni'mech schematics is still a battle'mech or a first gen IS omni'mech.

The Bushwacker is clearly defined as a Battlemech, not an Omni-mehc. This is made clear both in lore as well as the call letters for the unit. Most if not all IS omni’s contain the call letters of –O

For example:

The Centurion Omni-mech from 3145 goes by the call letters:

CN11-O
CN11-OA
CN11-OB
CN11-OC
CN11-OD
CN11-OE

Quote

Second, the bushwaker prototyes (which happend to be remarkable unusable) are not the bushwackers you are looking forward to have in MWO.

The BSW-X1 and X2 are both rather useable, provided you don’t mind having a a ballistic and missile oriented mech, kind of like a slightly larger Centurion, with hit boxes more akin to a Marauder or Stalker…

The BSW-S2 is completely viable in MWO as far as tech is considered, so it would be a non-issue again, for those that have a preference for ballistic and missle mechs.

Edited by Metus regem, 20 July 2016 - 07:14 AM.