39 replies to this topic

[GreyNovember]

The prime counter statement against close combat in a light seems to be:

Anyone who disagrees said:

lol your broken hitreg cheating POS was nerfed and now you can't use real skill haha scrub no invincible lag shield and surviving 6+ mechs firing at you

I probably simplified this massively, but I'll leave it there.

I'm going to go on a limb and assume that the locust is okay the way it is.

So why are Jenners and firestarters not allowed to be played similarly? Along with a size increase, their movement profile was also increased, making them less agile.

Those mechs are already paying for agility with engine size; just like the TBR. So why deny them that?

Why can't I, as a 35 tonner pilot, with a max engine and 6SPLs, be allowed to stay out of the turn radius of a bigger mech, and pick it apart if it has no backup?

Why must we be forced to play ranged support, or be someone's glorified spotter?

You fatties are allowed to snipe, brawl, and lurm.

Why can't we?



TLDR: Why you make our 35 tonners have bigger movement profile, AND make us bigger. WTF guys.

[Pariah Devalis]

GreyNovember, on 19 July 2016 - 04:31 AM, said:

TLDR: Why you make our 35 tonners have bigger movement profile, AND make us bigger. WTF guys.

Because they have the firepower of a medium mech, move faster than any medium mech, and are only 5 tons lighter than a medium mech, are almost as durable as a 40-ton medium mech, so should be just a little smaller than a medium mech as opposed to half their size like they used to be?

I donno. Maybe.

For the record, I don't mind lights played in any role. As long as they play it well. Fast lights, slow lights, gunboats, support/scouts, and harassers. Fighting at range or brawling it out. I have seen it all, played it all. They're serviceable, but it isn't easy being a slow light mech.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 19 July 2016 - 04:39 AM.

[GreyNovember]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 July 2016 - 04:34 AM, said:

Because they have the firepower of a medium mech, move faster than any medium mech, and are only 5 tons lighter than a medium mech, are almost as durable as a 40-ton medium mech, so should be just a little smaller than a medium mech as opposed to half their size like they used to be?

This feels more like it says 40-ton medium mechs are horribly ineffecient, instead of 35 tonners having to be like this.

Cicada vs Jenner F; the Cicada might win because it's got more HP at this point. Which is fine.

But then, why would you ever bother with the Jenner if the Cicada does that?

[Pariah Devalis]

GreyNovember, on 19 July 2016 - 04:49 AM, said:

This feels more like it says 40-ton medium mechs are horribly ineffecient, instead of 35 tonners having to be like this.

Cicada vs Jenner F; the Cicada might win because it's got more HP at this point. Which is fine.

But then, why would you ever bother with the Jenner if the Cicada does that?

Even in ye holy book of tabletop to which the game is based off of only uses "classes" of mech for simplification reasons. The game didn't treat a 35 ton light mech any different when shot at than a 40 ton medium mech. You went with a mech because it did something at a value you accepted.

To take your question of "why take a Jenner when you can take a Cicada," I could ask "why take a Viper when you can take a Shadow Cat?" Or how about "why take a Grasshopper when you can take a Black Knight?" 5 tons is not a hell of a lot of difference.

However, looking side by side at the specific example you asked of Jenner vs Cicada, short of the loyalty Cicada (which trades jump jets for reduced firepower), the Jenner is the only one of the two that has jump capability. Granted, jump jets are not what they used to be, but being able to jump, being slightly smaller, being faster (or as fast), and packing the same firepower seems a fair trade. You are trading durability (and a larger cross section which directly impacts that durability) for mobility (and an oh so slightly lower health pool).

Edit: Changed Thunderbolt to Grasshopper to maintain the 5-ton difference.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 19 July 2016 - 04:59 AM.

[ScarecrowES]

ONE light had its movement profile changed - the Jenner. And it's receiving mobility buffs today. And unless your target fatty was standing on a steep hill, the movement archetype change on the Jenner didn't affect you.

[GreyNovember]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 July 2016 - 04:53 AM, said:

Even in ye holy book of tabletop to which the game is based off of only uses "classes" of mech for simplification reasons. The game didn't treat a 35 ton light mech any different when shot at than a 40 ton medium mech. You went with a mech because it did something at a value you accepted.

To take your question of "why take a Jenner when you can take a Cicada," I could ask "why take a Viper when you can take a Shadow Cat?" Or how about "why take a Grasshopper when you can take a Black Knight?" 5 tons is not a hell of a lot of difference.

However, looking side by side at the specific example you asked of Jenner vs Cicada, short of the loyalty CIcada, the Jenner is the only one of the two that has jump capability. Granted, jump jets are not what they used to be, but being able to jump, being slightly smaller, being faster (or as fast), and packing the same firepower seems a fair trade. You are trading durability (and a larger cross section which directly impacts that durability) for mobility (and an oh so slightly lower health pool).

Edit: Changed Thunderbolt to Grasshopper to maintain the 5-ton difference.

I should point out that the Viper is a much more logical close combat mech compared to the shadowcat.

That aside, is your implication that the classification of a light should mean absolutely nothing, and any kind of speedy close combat should be reserved for things in the locust range?

[Weeny Machine]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 July 2016 - 04:34 AM, said:

Because they have the firepower of a medium mech, move faster than any medium mech, and are only 5 tons lighter than a medium mech, are almost as durable as a 40-ton medium mech, so should be just a little smaller than a medium mech as opposed to half their size like they used to be?

I donno. Maybe.

For the record, I don't mind lights played in any role. As long as they play it well. Fast lights, slow lights, gunboats, support/scouts, and harassers. Fighting at range or brawling it out. I have seen it all, played it all. They're serviceable, but it isn't easy being a slow light mech.

A light which has the firepower of a medium has still not...
a. the heat management of said medium either because of less HS or weapon type
b. the armour of the medium mech
c. the structure of the medium mech
d. in some cases not the hardpoints
e. often not the range of a medium (SPL range yaaay)

Also a 35t mech is still no medium mech and there is a 5t difference. This can often make a world of a difference. However, I think in general the mechs in the lower range of their class' weight spectrum should get a small bonus to help them in the form of quirks e.g. agility etc

Edited by Bush Hopper, 19 July 2016 - 05:25 AM.

[Templar Dane]

I don't think light mechs should be punished because below average pilots can't hit them. It's not the light mech's fault the LRM atlas with a 200 engine can't hit the light mech with it's machine gun.

Light mechs have been a minority for a long time, no reason to make them even less popular. Heck, medium mechs are pretty much in the same spot because everybody wants more armor and more weapons.

[Pariah Devalis]

GreyNovember, on 19 July 2016 - 05:02 AM, said:

I should point out that the Viper is a much more logical close combat mech compared to the shadowcat.

That aside, is your implication that the classification of a light should mean absolutely nothing, and any kind of speedy close combat should be reserved for things in the locust range?

I only agree to your first inferred statement. "Classification of a light should mean absolutely nothing." I at no point stated or inferred that second portion.

As I said, I have played it all. One of my most enjoyable mechs is an A-SRM24 Adder. Not streaks. I also used to love 3x MPlas SDR-5D, and before the ACH, I would run around in a 4 SPLas MLX. Knife fighting in a light mech is absolutely acceptable. Fast or slow. However, some mechs are more well suited to it than others. You wouldn't expect a powerboat to make a great cruise ship, nor a tank to make a good formula 1 racer.

[ScarecrowES]

GreyNovember, on 19 July 2016 - 05:02 AM, said:

I should point out that the Viper is a much more logical close combat mech compared to the shadowcat.

That aside, is your implication that the classification of a light should mean absolutely nothing, and any kind of speedy close combat should be reserved for things in the locust range?

The implication is that 35-tonners have more in common with most mediums than most lights by virtue of their weight.

I think many people expect that all mechs in a given category should play the same... it simply doesnt work that way. A 35-tonner is a very different animal than a 20-tonner. A 55-tonner is a very different animal than a 40-tonner. And really... different mechs at the same weight will play differently depending on what they focus on. Look at 45-tonners for example. The Blackjack, Vindicator, Shadowcat, and Phoenix Hawk are all very different mechs with different playstyles.

Trying to generalize mechs by "class" won't do you any good.

Up until recently, mechs at the upper end of the class weight scale have had all the advantages that come with increased tonnage, but none of the size or movement disadvantages that should come with that. After the rescale you're starting to see there are some disadvantages to picking thw bigger mech... namely, it's bigger.

[Pariah Devalis]

To complaints of durability, have any of you actually looked at the degree of durability loss between 35 and 40 tons? 32 ST/44 CT in a 35 ton mech, unallocated, 40 ST/48 CT in a 40 ton mech, unallocated. Internal structure health is 16/22 vs 20/24. Internal wise, the change is negligible. External armor wise, the CT is negligible, the side torsos are starting to get a bit noticeable. However, the 35 ton mech will be a smaller target. Will be in a constant state of evasive maneuvering if the enemy sees it at all. Is able to get places that the 40 tonner will not be able to.

If you all want light mechs to be as small as they used to be, you should be more comfortable with the durability of a 25 ton mech, because that was how small they were before.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 19 July 2016 - 05:14 AM.

[Templar Dane]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 July 2016 - 05:13 AM, said:

To complaints of durability, have any of you actually looked at the degree of durability loss between 35 and 40 tons? 32 ST/44 CT in a 35 ton mech, unallocated, 40 ST/48 CT in a 40 ton mech, unallocated. Internal structure health is 16/22 vs 20/24. Internal wise, the change is negligible. External armor wise, the CT is negligible, the side torsos are starting to get a bit noticeable. However, the 35 ton mech will be a smaller target. Will be in a constant state of evasive maneuvering if the enemy sees it at all. Is able to get places that the 40 tonner will not be able to.

If you all want light mechs to be as small as they used to be, you should be more comfortable with the durability of a 25 ton mech, because that was how small they were before.

The heavier mechs can fit larger weapons much more easily and stay at range. If you're gonna brawl in a light mech you're vulnerable to every weapon system in the game. At range there are fewer risks.

[Pariah Devalis]

Templar Dane, on 19 July 2016 - 05:17 AM, said:

The heavier mechs can fit larger weapons much more easily and stay at range. If you're gonna brawl in a light mech you're vulnerable to every weapon system in the game. At range there are fewer risks.

At range you're a much harder target to hit. At point blank range, you can stay outside of their gun traversal, or at least be extremely difficult to track. At no point should the light mech present itself as the only target the enemy sees. Actually, no mech should do that. Not even assaults. Never present the enemy a single target. Given the choice of an Atlas bearing down on you or the Jenner zipping around your flank, the sure money is on people shooting the Atlas, not the Jenner. You have teammates you can exploit.

Also, for the love of god, if you are going to snipe, remember you should only shoot a maximum of two times against an aware enemy before repositioning. Any more than that and you deserve to be blasted into oblivion since you shot from a compromised position. Shoot and scoot!

Edit: Though I question why the enemy would see your jenner flanking in the first case. Sneak in, backstab, get out. Don't loiter. You're a rogue class, to the Atlas' paladin.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 19 July 2016 - 05:28 AM.

[Weeny Machine]

ScarecrowES, on 19 July 2016 - 05:13 AM, said:

The implication is that 35-tonners have more in common with most mediums than most lights by virtue of their weight.

I think many people expect that all mechs in a given category should play the same... it simply doesnt work that way. A 35-tonner is a very different animal than a 20-tonner. A 55-tonner is a very different animal than a 40-tonner. And really... different mechs at the same weight will play differently depending on what they focus on. Look at 45-tonners for example. The Blackjack, Vindicator, Shadowcat, and Phoenix Hawk are all very different mechs with different playstyles.

Trying to generalize mechs by "class" won't do you any good.

Up until recently, mechs at the upper end of the class weight scale have had all the advantages that come with increased tonnage, but none of the size or movement disadvantages that should come with that. After the rescale you're starting to see there are some disadvantages to picking thw bigger mech... namely, it's bigger.

Then we can call it Generic Robot Online and introduce new weapons. Why? The categories play a big role in the Battletech universe. Mechs which didn't suit their class got special lines in the TOR like the Dragon etc. This shows that there are exceptions to the rule but they remain exceptions

It is also amusing that heavies even 75t ones are quite nimble in MWO. But that is fine, they are heavies and not lights, right? I mean a 75t mech should already act like an assault according to your logic

Edited by Bush Hopper, 19 July 2016 - 05:31 AM.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 July 2016 - 05:22 AM, said:

At range you're a much harder target to hit. At point blank range, you can stay outside of their gun traversal, or at least be extremely difficult to track. At no point should the light mech present itself as the only target the enemy sees. Actually, no mech should do that. Not even assaults. Never present the enemy a single target. Given the choice of an Atlas bearing down on you or the Jenner zipping around your flank, the sure money is on people shooting the Atlas, not the Jenner. You have teammates you can exploit.

Also, for the love of god, if you are going to snipe, remember you should only shoot a maximum of two times against an aware enemy before repositioning. Any more than that and you deserve to be blasted into oblivion since you shot from a compromised position. Shoot and scoot!

Edit: Though I question why the enemy would see your jenner flanking in the first case. Sneak in, backstab, get out. Don't loiter.

1. I prefer the term assist to exploit

2. Lights mostly get seen because either seismic or someone just happened to be looking your way slightly and got a blip on the radar.

[Pariah Devalis]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 19 July 2016 - 05:30 AM, said:

1. I prefer the term assist to exploit

2. Lights mostly get seen because either seismic or someone just happened to be looking your way slightly and got a blip on the radar.

Given the average Atlas or DWF pilot, I go with exploit. "BUT MAH BIG GUNZ!" Pft... Lumbering beasts....

True to the latter. Seismic did a lot of harm to light mechs. Surprise is a great deal of what makes light mechs work, and with that one module it undermines it. I wonder how much the game would change if they just up and removed seismic from the game one day.

[3xnihilo]

They are allowed to be close range fighters, but if they do it well, they will be nerfed. Just stick with your ml peek-a-boo builds and things will be fine.

I might actually buy Jenners though to see if the new agility quirks make a difference, since that is the most important factor in knife fighting. That is, if I can get my poor computer fixed

[Weeny Machine]

ScarecrowES, on 19 July 2016 - 05:01 AM, said:

ONE light had its movement profile changed - the Jenner. And it's receiving mobility buffs today. And unless your target fatty was standing on a steep hill, the movement archetype change on the Jenner didn't affect you.

Did you come to that conclusion after your first or second match you played in your light mech since the rescale?
I seriously wonder how many you had had played before the patch

[Mekwarrior]

Lights and fast mechs have no roles in the game anymore except to hide and pop up occasionally for the occasional shot.

That makes for a very boring game.

Most ppl that agree with all these lights nerfs are just looking at numbers in the stats, and not really playing lights or thinking of what makes good gameplay. It's not hiding behind a rock the whole game.

Edited by Mekwarrior, 19 July 2016 - 05:48 AM.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Pariah Devalis, on 19 July 2016 - 05:34 AM, said:

Given the average Atlas or DWF pilot, I go with exploit. "BUT MAH BIG GUNZ!" Pft... Lumbering beasts....

True to the latter. Seismic did a lot of harm to light mechs. Surprise is a great deal of what makes light mechs work, and with that one module it undermines it. I wonder how much the game would change if they just up and removed seismic from the game one day.

Honestly? It wouldn't change much. Not enough people are interested in playing lights due to a single mistake getting you killed and not having enough fire power to go out in a blaze of glory. They require far too much thought, situational awareness, etc to be easy to pick up (except when something gets stupid quirks like the oxide had or the cheeto on release).