18 replies to this topic

[Nerd Incognito]

Hi, All!

I'm a fairly new player, and I'm starting to get a feel for what I enjoy playing. My first mech was a TBR laser-vomit build, but I really just didn't enjoy it. Lately, I've been running a brawling build with four C-SRM 6 and five medium lasers.

I like it, but I've been wondering whether I should make the effort (and pay the cost) to move to Artemis. I would have to drop my jump jets, and one medium laser (making my loadout four C-SRM 6 + Artemis, and four medium lasers), however. I would also have slightly improved cooling efficiency (naturally), and either an additional 100 SRM ammo, or an improved targeting computer (again, I'm not sure how worth it this would be).

Any recommendations?

[John Stryker]

I have a hard time in timberwolves due to the fact that its such a noticable shape that it gets picked off in a crowd. I have a build that sounds similar to yours, but I pack 4 mpl, 2 srm6 and 2 srm4 with jjs.

[Roughneck45]

Can you link your build using smurfy? You should be able to keep your JJ's making that switch.

Personally, I run artemis on everything if I can fit it, and it is most useful on SRM 6's. Considering SRMs are your primary damage source I'd say its worth it.

However, it also depends on your play style and the range you use your SRMs at. I tend to fire them at near max range so artemis is essential. If you find yourself only using them sub 150m most of the time its not as necessary.

[TercieI]

I strongly suggest Artemis on clan SRM6s, which scatter like mad without it.

IMO, this particular build works two ways: 1) use MLs but only ever fire them out of SRM range, lean on the SRMs up close or 2) swap the MLs for SPLs, embrace the brawl, pick your spots and smash.

Edited by TercieI, 20 July 2016 - 11:21 AM.

[GroxGlitch]

If I may suggest a (slight) alternative, have you considered cSRM4's + Artemis? The spread on cSRM6's, even with Artemis, tends to spread damage somewhat, whereas 4's clump rather tight with Artemis, reload faster, and are lighter. The higher cycle rate gives you superior DPS, and the lower weight allows you to carry more ammunition or heat sinks.

If you're sticking with the 6's then Artemis is a definitely worth the upgrade. I'd recommend the extra ammo if possible, as the quad 6's eat ammunition rather quickly.

[TercieI]

GroxGlitch, on 20 July 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

If I may suggest a (slight) alternative, have you considered cSRM4's + Artemis? The spread on cSRM6's, even with Artemis, tends to spread damage somewhat, whereas 4's clump rather tight with Artemis, reload faster, and are lighter. The higher cycle rate gives you superior DPS, and the lower weight allows you to carry more ammunition or heat sinks.

If you're sticking with the 6's then Artemis is a definitely worth the upgrade. I'd recommend the extra ammo if possible, as the quad 6's eat ammunition rather quickly.

You basically run out of space before weight building this, though, so the 4s don't really get you much of value.

[Nerd Incognito]

Wow. That was quick; thanks!

Sorry--for reference, this is what I'm running currently
This is what I'm looking at changing to.

So far as play style, I use the lasers to extend my range a bit, and then only as secondary once things get closer. I'm finally starting to break myself of the bad habit of impatient play (poking out before the fight is close enough to get brawling and getting shot in the face a bunch), so the small lasers are a possibility...I guess that way, I could still keep the JJs.

Oh, and I had thought about 4s + Artemis, but as was pointed out, I ran out of hardpoints way before I ran out of weight with them.

Edited by Vulcan500rider, 20 July 2016 - 11:36 AM.

[GroxGlitch]

TercieI, on 20 July 2016 - 11:22 AM, said:

You basically run out of space before weight building this, though, so the 4s don't really get you much of value.

I will give that the advantage the 2 free tons give is rather niche, I brought it up more for the performance of the 4's over the 6's. I suggest 4's because I've seen better performance with them in general, though that's something largely up to the individual playstyle. It's only food for thought.

Vulcan500rider, on 20 July 2016 - 11:32 AM, said:

So far as play style, I use the lasers to extend my range a bit, and then only as secondary once things get closer. I'm finally starting to break myself of the bad habit of impatient play (poking out before the fight is close enough to get brawling and getting shot in the face a bunch), so the small lasers are a possibility...I guess that way, I could still keep the JJs.

I can second Tercel's, well, second suggestion. The SPL's are handy as they don't run as hot as the ERML's up close, meaning you can use them in the brawl without pushing yourself dangerously close to overheating, and their short duration means you can use them to open up your opponent's armor or destroy components while your SRM's are on cooldown. They compliment the missiles nicely, from experience.

Edited by GroxGlitch, 20 July 2016 - 11:42 AM.

[Metus regem]

Vulcan500rider, on 20 July 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:

Hi, All!

I'm a fairly new player, and I'm starting to get a feel for what I enjoy playing. My first mech was a TBR laser-vomit build, but I really just didn't enjoy it. Lately, I've been running a brawling build with four C-SRM 6 and five medium lasers.

I like it, but I've been wondering whether I should make the effort (and pay the cost) to move to Artemis. I would have to drop my jump jets, and one medium laser (making my loadout four C-SRM 6 + Artemis, and four medium lasers), however. I would also have slightly improved cooling efficiency (naturally), and either an additional 100 SRM ammo, or an improved targeting computer (again, I'm not sure how worth it this would be).

Any recommendations?

HI there, and welcome to MWO.

Now with that out of the way, a general rule of thumb around these parts is Artemis is very, very good on SRM6's, debatable on SRM 4's and pointless on SRM 2's.

Now when it comes to SRM6, I would recommend down grading them to SRM4's as they give you most of the punch of the 6's while being more accurate as well as better on ammo consumption.

My go-to Timber Wolf build:

TBR-Metus

Feel free to change the PPC's to a weapon system more to your tastes, LPLs or ERML both work just fine in their place, and are easier to learn with.

[Koniving]

Vulcan500rider, on 20 July 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:

Hi, All!

I'm a fairly new player, and I'm starting to get a feel for what I enjoy playing. My first mech was a TBR laser-vomit build, but I really just didn't enjoy it. Lately, I've been running a brawling build with four C-SRM 6 and five medium lasers.

I like it, but I've been wondering whether I should make the effort (and pay the cost) to move to Artemis. I would have to drop my jump jets, and one medium laser (making my loadout four C-SRM 6 + Artemis, and four medium lasers), however. I would also have slightly improved cooling efficiency (naturally), and either an additional 100 SRM ammo, or an improved targeting computer (again, I'm not sure how worth it this would be).

Any recommendations?

Targeting computer won't do much for the SRMs due to how PGI made them / MWO works.
I may be reading this wrong but it sounds like you're saying the switch to Artemis may or may not make your cooling better...

So I'm gonna assume, instead, that you mean if you do not go with Artemis and instead channel it into another 4 double heatsinks you'd have better cooling which is true.
But since I'm confused....

Anyway.
Lets take a step back.

Ignoring the lore (as MWO kinda has) and just quoting the rules (which MWO does follow), Artemis weighs 1 ton per launcher it is attached to and it is all or nothing. So 4 launchers, 4 tons added for Artemis.

You can, of course, get around this in other ways such as changing two of your SRM-6 launchers into Streak SRM-6... which yes are heavier than SRM-6, but won't have Artemis tacked onto them.... despite the fact that due to a fluke of programming that will never be fixed, will still accelerate your lock on times for the Streaks.

Or for similar benefits at the cost of less missiles fired at once, change to SRM-4s as they are more accurate and less spread, going more where you want them... like SRM-6s would with Artemis.

Your build sounds good. Artemis would make the missiles tighter. Just remember that 4 SRM-6 fired at once spikes extra heat as a punishment to 'coax' you into not firing all missiles at once, where 3 SRM-6 is not punished.

Is it worth having Artemis? Yes, yes it is. You have the free tonnage, you can make good use out of it.
Would it be useful on a Timber Wolf? Most certainly.
Should you do it? Yes.

Side note: I personally run 2 SRM-6s and an LRM-20. My build does not have the spare tonnage to pack in Artemis however.

Early to start typing, late to actually send (and as such the follow up posts appeared after I sent).

I'm a bit baffled... How is going to Artemis enhancing cooling efficiency after removing 1 DHS?
This shouldn't be a thing. Artemis heat is identical to regular heat.
Is there a specific quirk for Artemis missile heat generation?

Edited by Koniving, 20 July 2016 - 11:58 AM.

[TercieI]

GroxGlitch, on 20 July 2016 - 11:33 AM, said:

I will give that the advantage the 2 free tons give is rather niche, I brought it up more for the performance of the 4's over the 6's. I suggest 4's because I've seen better performance with them in general, though that's something largely up to the individual playstyle. It's only food for thought.

Oh, yeah, I wasn't saying you were wrong. I generally agree with you. It's just that this is one place where it doesn't work out so well.

[Nerd Incognito]

Thanks, Koniving. The increased efficiency is from losing a medium laser. One less thing to generate heat, I guess. There's no actual increase in heat dissipation.

I looked at streaks, but the lock-on time just doesn't work for the way I brawl. I need to be able to fire from the hip or I get crushed.

As for ghost heat, I thought you could get away with 4 C-SRM 6s without triggering GH? I've been using this chart; is it out of date, or am I misunderstanding something, perhaps?

[Roughneck45]

Vulcan500rider, on 20 July 2016 - 12:12 PM, said:

As for ghost heat, I thought you could get away with 4 C-SRM 6s without triggering GH? I've been using this chart; is it out of date, or am I misunderstanding something, perhaps?

Nope, you are correct.

Unless they ninja changed something when I wasnt looking you can fire 4 without ghost heat.

It used to be 3, which I believe is what Koniving is referencing.

[TercieI]

Roughneck45, on 20 July 2016 - 12:18 PM, said:

Nope, you are correct.

Unless they ninja changed something when I wasnt looking you can fire 4 without ghost heat.

It used to be 3, which I believe is what Koniving is referencing.

Yeah, definitely 4 now.

[Nerd Incognito]

I just wanted to throw a quick update in here, to say thanks and to offer a quick summary for any other newbies with the same sort of question.

I made the switch to a build nearly identical to the ML build you suggested above, Terciel. I initially dropped one of the ammo loads and kept the targeting computer, but I ran out of ammo in my first two matches and made the switch to 500.

Both damage and kills rose significantly, even in the QP games where my team and I did everything wrong and got stomped on. Damage went from a good game (as I said, I'm new and I'm still working) of 300-400 to more like 500-600, and a combination of probably 2-3 kills/assists to more like 8-9 per match, always including at least one solo kill or most damage dealt, and often around 3. Huge difference.

I've also noted a significant benefit to dropping from 5 MLs down to 4; I'm much less likely to overheat, even when using both in a brawling situation. It still happens if I'm not playing close enough attention, but much less frequently. I do also like that I still have SOMETHING to do at range, rather than just sitting on my hands and waiting for the true up-close-and-personal experience of close brawling. That said, I foresee a time (maybe not that far into the future) when I'm comfortable enough in my own skills to not need that crutch, and I may seriously consider swapping to SPL at that point...

Thanks again for all the great advice!

[TercieI]

Vulcan500rider, on 21 July 2016 - 07:05 AM, said:

I just wanted to throw a quick update in here, to say thanks and to offer a quick summary for any other newbies with the same sort of question.

I made the switch to a build nearly identical to the ML build you suggested above, Terciel. I initially dropped one of the ammo loads and kept the targeting computer, but I ran out of ammo in my first two matches and made the switch to 500.

Both damage and kills rose significantly, even in the QP games where my team and I did everything wrong and got stomped on. Damage went from a good game (as I said, I'm new and I'm still working) of 300-400 to more like 500-600, and a combination of probably 2-3 kills/assists to more like 8-9 per match, always including at least one solo kill or most damage dealt, and often around 3. Huge difference.

I've also noted a significant benefit to dropping from 5 MLs down to 4; I'm much less likely to overheat, even when using both in a brawling situation. It still happens if I'm not playing close enough attention, but much less frequently. I do also like that I still have SOMETHING to do at range, rather than just sitting on my hands and waiting for the true up-close-and-personal experience of close brawling. That said, I foresee a time (maybe not that far into the future) when I'm comfortable enough in my own skills to not need that crutch, and I may seriously consider swapping to SPL at that point...

Thanks again for all the great advice!

More than welcome. You kinda made my day.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

Erml is a lousy combo with SRMs.
The benefit of SRMs is they are fire and forget, as in shoot em all and IMMEDIATELY twist away any return fire.
Ermll have such a long durration time that it requires you to stare down your target, which negates a lot of the benefits of srms.
Mpl should be the longest duration weapn you match with SRMs, and there are strong arguments to use small pulse instead.

Edited by Boogie138, 21 July 2016 - 03:29 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Yeah totally agree on the ERML.

I use this MPL/SRM6 build. It rocks as you do much better/faster closing damage with faster duration, can twist out the damage and not spread anywhere near as much laser.

4 tonne is 800dmg worth of SRM provied you hit every time, so maybe an average of 600dmg. Plenty. You really don't need much more than that, and with the MPL there is no reason you can't hit 1k damage.

TercieI, on 20 July 2016 - 11:06 AM, said:

I strongly suggest Artemis on clan SRM6s, which scatter like mad without it.

IMO, this particular build works two ways: 1) use MLs but only ever fire them out of SRM range, lean on the SRMs up close or 2) swap the MLs for SPLs, embrace the brawl, pick your spots and smash.

Yep, build #2 for me. Love it, works well.

[PhoenixFire55]

Vulcan500rider, on 20 July 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:

Any recommendations?

Here are a couple TBR brawler builds we used to run in leagues when we had a full-yolo-brawl dropdecks:
Yolo-1
Yolo-2
(distribute front/rear armor as you prefer)
Both are strictly "in your face" builds that are meant to be used at ~100 m ranges, first one is cooler due to having a ballistic, the second one runs hotter and better suited for cold maps, but it is symmetric and has SPLs that allow you to take out red components without wasting ammo.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 22 July 2016 - 12:40 AM.