67 replies to this topic

[PhoenixFire55]

Juodas Varnas, on 21 July 2016 - 04:13 AM, said:

Well, there are more IS battlemechs that are absolute garbage than those that are good.

****, there are IS battlemechs that are absolute garbage when compared to the "terrible omnis" hahaha.

TBH without quirks and huge nerfs to clan tech all IS would be garbage, because surprise surprise IS is garbage in lore/TT and this game was at some point based on TT. But instead of proper clan/IS balancing we went into the land of nerfs and crutches.

Also, all quads are terrible.
Hehehe.

[DovisKhan]

Kmieciu, on 21 July 2016 - 03:17 AM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...97b633a4371ffa4
C-UAC10s are great because each ton gives you 200 potential damage. You can side-poke, shoot a burst of 40 damage within 0.5 seconds then retreat. That's actually faster than the duration of IS LPL.
When someone tries to brawl you, the ER Smalls work better than IS Mediums (same damage, 1 less heat). 25 damage alpha for just 2.5 tonnes.

C-UAC10 rounds move at 950 m/s. That means they take 0.56 second to reach their optimum range. They are not optimal for shooting mechs running 100+ kph, but work pretty well against an enemy that tries to trade with you from cover. At 500 meters you can out-trade pretty much any clan or IS laser vomit mech. And at close range you can out-DPS them.

There is a reason, why 4xUAC10 Kodiak is considered the best meta-mech. It just work in most situations.
Just like 2xUAC10 HunchieIIC, Timber or a Warhawk.

That does look like a nice build

[AnarchyBurger]

Welp thats why you save a little longer and go clan *shrug*

[Hotthedd]

This just in!: Kodiak>Banshee

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Just going to mention, You'd want to run that build on an Atlas, not a Banshee, Atlas gets more structure quirks and is tankier than the Banshee or Kodiak. That build is basically a waste on a Banshee, though might be decent for an Atlas that can't SRM boat, like the K.

As for the loadouts, IS mech gets some weapon quirks thrown in, also has single slug ballistic vs double tap potential, so much more focused damage and easier ability to spread damage but less total potential damage.

[Spheroid]

The OP doesn't know what he taking about. All IS assaults are worth the money as the real cost is that of a mechbay where as the Kodiak is a minimum $20 buy in.

Also I could destroy your Kodiak build in any Banshee variant.

Edited by Spheroid, 21 July 2016 - 07:52 AM.

[iliketurtles87]

Dakota1000, on 21 July 2016 - 06:44 AM, said:

Just going to mention, You'd want to run that build on an Atlas, not a Banshee, Atlas gets more structure quirks and is tankier than the Banshee or Kodiak. That build is basically a waste on a Banshee, though might be decent for an Atlas that can't SRM boat, like the K.

As for the loadouts, IS mech gets some weapon quirks thrown in, also has single slug ballistic vs double tap potential, so much more focused damage and easier ability to spread damage but less total potential damage.

yes you have right. the Banshee was just an example. You can run it on an atlas (its maybe better), but you would not reach that heat efficiency of the kodiak... and i would trade the IS AC20 anyday for the c-UAC20

@Phoenixfire55 yea i dont take it personally. This is just a comparing (this particular loadout) between both techs.

so enough from me, see you on the Battlefield

[-Vompo-]

iliketurtles87, on 21 July 2016 - 02:56 AM, said:

@Vompo: MX90 what build do you mean ? 5 AC5 ?

5 AC5 is quite effective build. Slow and limited in ammo but quite capable for multiple kills per round.

[Moldur]

PGI tries to make Clan vs IS a 1:1 balance. 1:1 balance decision is intrinsic to PGI making matches 12v12 Clan v Innersphere. Each tech offers some sort of trade-off among the following:

weight, duration, range, heat, ghost heat.


Except PGI cannot even follow their own philosophy about 1:1 balance. Some Clan tech is strictly better. Clan XLs are strictly better. Clan active probe is strictly better. Clan streaks are strictly better by virtue of them having a SSRM-2,4,6. Clan gauss is strictly better.


So we have this disparity existing in a game that is supposed to be 1:1 balanced. Why? It is not lore friendly for Innersphere to have Clan XLs, or clan SSRMs, etc.

But guess what? MWO does not care about lore. Nobody should be arguing about lore when PGI is trying to achieve 1:1 balance between Clans and IS, something that never happened to begin with. Nobody should be arguing about lore when we have clan tech that is not objectively better in all regards. PGI threw that out the window long ago.

What reason is there to keep this disparity? Is it for the sake of lore? MWO is like .000001% lore friendly. I honestly think the tech barrier should be removed, and both sides should get access to all equipment. Everything gets unlocked, etc.

Yeah. It is not lore friendly. So? At least it will bring the game closer to true 1:1 balance instead of continuing to be a failure at asymmetric 1:1 balance.

[GrimReaper74]

I think without the last vestiges of lore in the game the player base would be much smaller as it is and this game would be like any other.

Also I think it is an invalid argument to compare chassis without observing the differences in weapon properties. Yes, Clan weapons are lighter and their energy weapons do more damage and have higher range... but they buy this with burst fire AC (what I would give for a single slug at times), longer laser burn times, streaming LRMs and lower damage SRM.... and honestly... Streak SRM spread the damage real wide and have less effect against heavier targets. In addition in the current system, IS has higher weapon count thresholds until Ghost Heat kicks in.

[Jackal Noble]

This thread is funny and makes me laugh

Edited by JackalBeast, 21 July 2016 - 12:06 PM.

[Revis Volek]

This old chesnut....


What changed so much in the past few weeks that we went from being Pretty balanced to Clams is OP again?

Rescale? Because thats about all that changed aside from some over generous quirks on a few mechs.

[Aresye]

DovisKhan, on 21 July 2016 - 01:31 AM, said:

You just forgot to mention that 3 IS ERLL do the same as 2 CLPL, but they weight more, have more heat and more burn time, so yes, Clan is way ahead

That's why you ONLY run ERLL builds on mechs with -15% to -30% Laser Duration quirks.

When you're comparing IS and Clan balance, you HAVE to use the most common and heavily quirked IS mechs for whichever loadout/play style you're comparing, because the most common mechs taken for that play style are going to be those quirked for it.

For example, if you're comparing the brawling ability of the Spirit Bear, you wouldn't compare it to a King Crab. You'd compare it "specifically" to the AS7-S, because any smart IS pilot that wants to brawl in a 100t IS mech is going to pick the AS7-S.

If you're going to compare Clan weapons and mechs against unquirked IS weapons and mechs, Clan will most often come out on top. That's WHY there's quirks in the first place.

[PhoenixFire55]

Aresye, on 21 July 2016 - 12:19 PM, said:

For example, if you're comparing the brawling ability of the Spirit Bear, you wouldn't compare it to a King Crab. You'd compare it "specifically" to the AS7-S, because any smart IS pilot that wants to brawl in a 100t IS mech is going to pick the AS7-S.

Thats not entirely true tho. You can assemble the same build (AC20+4xSRM6s) on a KingCrab and unlike Atlas all your weapons will be on one side of the mech, so you'll have an entire RA+RT as a tanking shield. This KGC is actually very effective.

[Mystere]

Moldur, on 21 July 2016 - 09:11 AM, said:

PGI tries to make Clan vs IS a 1:1 balance. 1:1 balance decision is intrinsic to PGI making matches 12v12 Clan v Innersphere. Each tech offers some sort of trade-off among the following:

weight, duration, range, heat, ghost heat.


Except PGI cannot even follow their own philosophy about 1:1 balance. Some Clan tech is strictly better. Clan XLs are strictly better. Clan active probe is strictly better. Clan streaks are strictly better by virtue of them having a SSRM-2,4,6. Clan gauss is strictly better.


So we have this disparity existing in a game that is supposed to be 1:1 balanced. Why? It is not lore friendly for Innersphere to have Clan XLs, or clan SSRMs, etc.

But guess what? MWO does not care about lore. Nobody should be arguing about lore when PGI is trying to achieve 1:1 balance between Clans and IS, something that never happened to begin with. Nobody should be arguing about lore when we have clan tech that is not objectively better in all regards. PGI threw that out the window long ago.

What reason is there to keep this disparity? Is it for the sake of lore? MWO is like .000001% lore friendly. I honestly think the tech barrier should be removed, and both sides should get access to all equipment. Everything gets unlocked, etc.

Yeah. It is not lore friendly. So? At least it will bring the game closer to true 1:1 balance instead of continuing to be a failure at asymmetric 1:1 balance.

There is already a game that does that. It's called Hawken. And another one is coming. It's called Heavy Gear Assault. Alternatively, PGI could simply just remove the "A BattleTech Game" tag once and for all and let the chips fall as they may.

[Baulven]

Mystere, on 21 July 2016 - 12:24 PM, said:

There is already a game that does that. It's called Hawken. And another one is coming. It's called Heavy Gear Assault. Alternatively, PGI could simply just remove the "A BattleTech Game" tag once and for all and let the chips fall as they may.

I think that would be like the old time cried screaming bring out your dead though. Nostalgia is pretty much the only thing this game has going for it.

[Mystere]

JackalBeast, on 21 July 2016 - 12:06 PM, said:

This thread is funny and makes me laugh

Actually, this thread is sad and makes me shake my head.

[Moldur]

GrimReaper74, on 21 July 2016 - 10:27 AM, said:

I think without the last vestiges of lore in the game the player base would be much smaller as it is and this game would be like any other.

I don't.

Tada. My argument is as good as yours now.

Mystere, on 21 July 2016 - 12:24 PM, said:

There is already a game that does that. It's called Hawken. And another one is coming. It's called Heavy Gear Assault. Alternatively, PGI could simply just remove the "A BattleTech Game" tag once and for all and let the chips fall as they may.

You are telling me that the only thing that differentiates MWO and Quake Online: Mech Edition is a tech barrier between factions?

Edited by Moldur, 21 July 2016 - 01:07 PM.

[Templar Dane]

DovisKhan, on 21 July 2016 - 01:31 AM, said:

You just forgot to mention that 3 IS ERLL do the same as 2 CLPL, but they weight more, have more heat and more burn time, so yes, Clan is way ahead


The only place where IS is better than Clans is medium weight ballistics, namely UAC5, 3 UAC5 Jager will shred pretty much any mech its weight class it stares at, but that's at medium range, at 800+ poke distance Clans outshine IS by a long shot because their lasers are simply much better

You've compared the worst IS laser to the best clan laser. The meta used to be ISLL but recently switched to the ISLPL.

ISLPL = .67 duration
CLPL = 1.12

3x ISLPL is 33 damage for 21 heat discounting any heat gen quirks. Probably the best weapon combo in the game for outright killing mechs.

Edited by Templar Dane, 21 July 2016 - 01:32 PM.

[Husker Dude]

I feel like LPL has been the meta for a while now on both sides. My unit definitely switches back and forth, but is primarily IS and I have to say that IS does feel stronger precisely because of burn durations. Despite the numerical advantages of Clan damage and range, it's hard and risky to keep a laser trained on an enemy mech for the entire duration, you have to expose yourself for that much longer when poking.
It also helps IS that the Clan side is capped at two before they trigger ghost heat.

Still, there's a significant tradeoff with IS XL engines; pretty much any of the IS heavies (and many assaults) boating LPLs are running XL, and if you're not diligent about spreading incoming damage you can die quite quickly.
Clan LPL range is also still a pretty significant advantage, though you can't count on keeping encounters to around 600 meters.