49 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

Sjorpha, on 21 July 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

It's a problem, but it's not so simple I think.

Was a push the correct call at the time? Does push mean everyone gets in their faces brawling or does it mean controlled advance maintaining your optimal range? What if your optimal range is 500+ meters and you're already engaging the enemy at that range?

I think you need to communicate properly about what the push means and get your team with you on the plan before giving the order, because by itself it can be pretty vague.

Half the time (if not more), someone calling "PUSH" is doing so less because it's a perfectly optimal time to push, but because he's noticed that his team is doing the Terror Two-Step: take two steps forward, fire one pithy little poke, notice that they're at potential risk of return fire, and then hurriedly take two steps back. Repeat until defeat.

Trying to stir up some desperately needed aggression in such games can be...difficult. Saying "If we don't start actually fighting back we're going to get rolled over, guys" in VoIP or text chat usually results in two or three people responding with "F*** you, newbie"...prior to the team getting rolled over in the next few minutes. Yelling for a push and then following through yourself to the best of your abilities is one of the very few methods available for breaking your team of the Terror Two-Step that stands any chance of working at all.

It's sad that the only thing a player can do to try and incite his team to feats of game-winning badassery is usually to sacrifice himself in a particularly inspiring blaze of ultimately futile glory. Especially when even that works significantly less than half the time.

[CMGrendel]

The recent challenge and the natural emergent behaviour from it have killed my renewed passion for MWO dead.

Gameplay was vile during the challenge.

[Commander A9]

Yes, push, please. Because if you stop, everyone in front of you dies because they have no support from you, you die because you're shot from both sides, and everyone behind you dies because half your firepower was killed prior to the rest of the company joining the push.

---

But to be fair, the gif is kinda wrong...

...he failed to toss the flashbang through the door, and even tripped on his way in. That was problem 1).

And the soldier who simply stopped and stood was covering the street rather than breaching the building, or he takes a wider angle view of the interior, and he even steps to the one side to allow more people to pass beyond his position. So he wasn't blocking the column.

You can't have too many people breach a room at one time, to be honest. It all depends on the size of the building, obstacles, weapons, and nature of the threat.

You could have 2 guys breach a room and be fine with that. The 101st did that in Normandy when they attacked the German-occupied farmhouses codenamed Objective XYZ.

Edited by Commander A9, 21 July 2016 - 09:41 AM.

[Felio]

Another problem is that even pushing as a 100-ton assault, supposedly doing your job, you can die in literally two seconds. Unless it comes from a direction they aren't expecting, which is exceptionally rare, a push is really just a suicide rush.

[Pariah Devalis]

Felio, on 21 July 2016 - 09:56 AM, said:

Another problem is that even pushing as a 100-ton assault, supposedly doing your job, you can die in literally two seconds. Unless it comes from a direction they aren't expecting, which is exceptionally rare, a push is really just a suicide rush.

Better the 100 tons of armor take its share of the damage than everything far lighter, though. What might just badly damage an assault mech will outright kill something smaller, and now your entire team is down one mech and all the guns on it because all the armor is in the back. Just got out of a game where the last two mechs standing on the team was a viper, which was held together with duct tape, and a Kodiak, who spent the entire game at the back. When asked to share his armor, he replied "I just got a kill, buddy!"

I don't give a flying **** if you did, guy. The entire team got cut down, and your assault mech is practically factory fresh. Your unwillingness to spread the damage the team sustained helped in securing in a loss, just so you could pad your KDR. Way to go. Way to go.



By the time he finally started taking fire, it was a 6 on one situation and he was nuked. I'm sure he won't comprehend that happened only because he waited too long to get in the fight. Had he participated sooner, enemy mechs would not have been able to as easily focus fire.

That said, the entire game, I was in the front with an LRM boat, dumping LRMs at 200 meters. Literally the front. No mech in front of me, as that is how willing people were to stick their necks out. So perhaps we were destined to lose, regardless.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 21 July 2016 - 10:11 AM.

[Felio]

Pariah Devalis, on 21 July 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

Better the 100 tons of armor take its share of the damage than everything far lighter, though. What might just badly damage an assault mech will outright kill something smaller, and now your entire team is down one mech and all the guns on it because all the armor is in the back.

Well you'll get no argument from me there.

I have managed to lead a push in an assault, and it's a really good feeling. It requires leading the charge and fading just before you would die. Then, hopefully in the resulting chaos you can come back around and dish out some more hurt.

[BigBenn]

ABout the only time I call a "push" is when I see that the enemy team is split by virtue of ridge, mountain, or a large distance. When the chance of my team's over whelming numbers can make short work of the disadvantaged team... I'll call it and depending on the mech I'm in (Locusts and Spiders dont lead charges!) and what server I'm on (not all players understand English), I'll be the first or the 5th guy in. In most cases I'll also call out WHY I'm calling the push so it isnt a hollow "charge!" suggestion.

NEVER stop in the bottleneck. MOVE MOVE MOVE and get out of the way for the guns behind you!

[MeiSooHaityu]

Mystere, on 21 July 2016 - 09:27 AM, said:

If you want me to push with you, you should first take command. I'm not taking orders from a lowly grunt.

In PUGlandia, if someone is trying to get players to push, that is taking command (a voice of some direction amongst chaos). Remember, when PUGing, the closest thing a team often gets to "coordinating" is the guy that says..."Plan?" at the begining of a match lol.

[Templar Dane]

Even when you get the team to push, you can lose all the momentum the second the dude in front takes a step to the side because he can't take another hit.

The dudes in the middle/rear all stop because they don't want to take their turn in the front. Seems everybody is fine with pushing up and shooting enemy mechs but the second there's a risk they make take some fire they wimp out and everybody stops.

They stop, they get surrounded, they die. Then they moan about how pushing 'WAS THE STUPIDEST IDEA EVER' and then they park behind a rock for the rest of the match. The kiddies need to learn that this game is not Turret Warrior Online, mechs have legs for a reason.

[Sigilum Sanctum]

ScarecrowES, on 21 July 2016 - 08:29 AM, said:

I find that generally the guy most likely to call "PUSH" is also the guy least likely to actually "PUSH." When he says "push," what he really means is, "hey everybody, there's a whole bunch of healthy enemy mechs over there that I can't kill myself - so please go over there and do just enough damage to really hurt those mechs but not kill them, and then die doing it so I can come behind you and kill-steal all those cherry reds."

Then when you ask him what happened to "PUSH" he'll say it was our own fault we died because we didnt push together as a whole team - and luckily he saw it wasn't going to work so he hung back. And we're all noobs. Git gud.

So no, Mr. Push Guy... I will not be committing suicide so you can secure yourselves some easy pickings after the melee is cleared.

If you ever play with me (or any Antares Scorpion) you'll quickly know that when we call a push, we expect everyone to push. I'm an Assault pilot so I'm typically center of formation in a Banshee or Mauler, if I'm in my Atlas, I'm the tip of the spear at the front.

Armchair Generals get ignored. Any good player thats calling an actual good and thought out push, will be front and center.

[Mister Blastman]

1453 R, on 21 July 2016 - 09:36 AM, said:

It's sad that the only thing a player can do to try and incite his team to feats of game-winning badassery is usually to sacrifice himself in a particularly inspiring blaze of ultimately futile glory. Especially when even that works significantly less than half the time.

Swearing works sometimes over VOIP, but often I find calling targets amusing names gets their attention, too.

Templar Dane, on 21 July 2016 - 10:30 AM, said:

Even when you get the team to push, you can lose all the momentum the second the dude in front takes a step to the side because he can't take another hit.

The dudes in the middle/rear all stop because they don't want to take their turn in the front. Seems everybody is fine with pushing up and shooting enemy mechs but the second there's a risk they make take some fire they wimp out and everybody stops.

They stop, they get surrounded, they die. Then they moan about how pushing 'WAS THE STUPIDEST IDEA EVER' and then they park behind a rock for the rest of the match. The kiddies need to learn that this game is not Turret Warrior Online, mechs have legs for a reason.

Best way to tell if you played badly...

You have nearly unscratched armor towards the end of the game when most of your team is dead and most of the enemy team is alive.

[Iron Heel]

Yeah, it happens. And it's usually when defeat is snatched from the jaws of victory.
I can't speak for others, but the Infantryman's creedo is "Follow Me"
I know that usually my chances of survival are little to none but when I say push, it's over my shoulder

[Cy Mitchell]

MeiSooHaityu, on 21 July 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:

In PUGlandia, if someone is trying to get players to push, that is taking command (a voice of some direction amongst chaos). Remember, when PUGing, the closest thing a team often gets to "coordinating" is the guy that says..."Plan?" at the begining of a match lol.

A lot of the time the closet thing you get to taking command is when I say "Hi All" at the beginning of the match.


I do not feel that I have enough MWO experience to take command but I will talk during the match and follow a lead if someone takes control. Sometimes I will "suggest" a push like "Guys, there are three of them and 6 of use. Let's push and stop plinking at them." Then I will wait for half a beat to see if anyone moves forward. If even one Mech advances then I go full steam. It works about 75% of the time that everyone follows.

I try not to bounce the grenade off the wall going in though.

[Templar Dane]

Pariah Devalis, on 21 July 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

Better the 100 tons of armor take its share of the damage than everything far lighter, though. What might just badly damage an assault mech will outright kill something smaller, and now your entire team is down one mech and all the guns on it because all the armor is in the back. Just got out of a game where the last two mechs standing on the team was a viper, which was held together with duct tape, and a Kodiak, who spent the entire game at the back. When asked to share his armor, he replied "I just got a kill, buddy!"

I don't give a flying **** if you did, guy. The entire team got cut down, and your assault mech is practically factory fresh. Your unwillingness to spread the damage the team sustained helped in securing in a loss, just so you could pad your KDR. Way to go. Way to go.



By the time he finally started taking fire, it was a 6 on one situation and he was nuked. I'm sure he won't comprehend that happened only because he waited too long to get in the fight. Had he participated sooner, enemy mechs would not have been able to as easily focus fire.

That said, the entire game, I was in the front with an LRM boat, dumping LRMs at 200 meters. Literally the front. No mech in front of me, as that is how willing people were to stick their necks out. So perhaps we were destined to lose, regardless.

I'm usually at the front as well, gotta lead by example. The problem I see is that eventually I get opened up and can't take another hit and then my entire team STOPS because I am no longer moving up. Sometimes others will see what's going on and take the lead but it's really frustrating when you see everybody stop or even worse......when they start backing up.

Positioning is HUGE in this game and there's nothing more important than constantly moving to a better position. If the enemy team has a firing line you need to maneuver in such a way that they take fire from multiple directions. Death balls work and they work best when you scare them enough that they have dudes turn tail and run.

Unfortunately you have a lot of people, even really good players, that want to poke from the rear all game long. They are the sort that are still on their first mech by the end of a CW match. While sometimes that's not terrible for your team, it promotes bad play since others are likely to do the same. Monkey see monkey do. That dude did really well so I'm gonna do the same thing.

Play like that can work out but only if the enemy team makes mistakes. If the enemy deathball or get a good flank going on, the dudes in the far rear might not be in a position to help out the dudes in the front. Positioning can be complicated but that's because if both teams are playing well the right position to be in is constantly changing.

Edited by Templar Dane, 21 July 2016 - 10:47 AM.

[jonfett]

Felio, on 21 July 2016 - 10:13 AM, said:

Well you'll get no argument from me there.

I have managed to lead a push in an assault, and it's a really good feeling. It requires leading the charge and fading just before you would die. Then, hopefully in the resulting chaos you can come back around and dish out some more hurt.

This is where the KDK-3 really excels, especially with a xl400. Going 70kph, maiming targets, being a meat shield, while the rest of your team follows and spreads out and picks off the damaged enemy is the best.

[Ano]

Mister Blastman, on 21 July 2016 - 10:34 AM, said:

Swearing works sometimes over VOIP, but often I find calling targets amusing names gets their attention, too.

I shall be listening with interest next time I'm in a match with you on my team!

[Jman5]

One of the biggest mistakes I see with "PUSH!!!" orders, is that they are called because the drop commander is getting killed by the enemy and not because it's a good opportunity to push.

IMO, charges over open ground into a firing line are one of the hardest things to pull off well. To do it well, you need to be a much better team vs a disorganized one, or you need most of your team cycling in and out of the front lines, or you need to significantly out-ton them. To make matters worse, they are effectively an "all-in" call. Once you're charging over open ground there is no going back for the people who committed. If you're playing in a pug or mixed group, that's a big gamble.

My advice to drop commanders who like to get their teams in close for brawls is to avoid open-ground pushes when you can. Push aggressively through cover or at least partial cover. This way you're naturally cycling as different players are exposed at different times. You're also taking less overall damage. Most importantly it's not an all or nothing push. If your team decided to ignore your call you have some cover to hunker down in and switch to a trading playstyle.

Edited by Jman5, 21 July 2016 - 10:59 AM.

[L3mming2]

i sometimes call for a puch when i am at the other side of the map, being chased by 2 heavys a medium and a assault... (i do tend to call somthing like "pouche now! the are split! i have got .... chasing me in ..." usualy it works, as most players engaged in a poke game dont realy know what is happening outside of there radar range unless you call it out... if i am in a heavy ore a assault i usualy first call out " i am going to pouch in D6, please back me up ..... ready ... pouch!!!! " it atleast gives your ally's the time to react and warn u if they cant/wont puch with you before you are over the ege with your pants down...

[SteelBruiser]

Several times I've heard the order to push only to find it was given by the LRM Boat who then wants you to lock onto targets for him while you're doing close quarters brawling! Those are the guys I want to go back and finish off myself.

[Iron Heel]

I find taking the command role helps. And I don't mean by just placing the star next to your name.
When you are calling out op-for positions, direction of movement and such, and giving coherent orders people will tend to follow your lead.
People are sheep, they want to be lead by the strong & confident.

Edited by Iron Heel, 21 July 2016 - 11:05 AM.