51 replies to this topic

[NoiseCrypt]

(drops mic and walks out...)

[Lily from animove]

HAHAHA

you mean those "win farm boards"? or the previous "KMDD farm boards"?

not even the leaderboard have a proper skill indicating sorting

*steps on and crushes the mic*













--seriously, look who leads the current one --

Edited by Lily from animove, 22 July 2016 - 04:47 AM.

[NoiseCrypt]

Lily from animove, on 22 July 2016 - 04:45 AM, said:

HAHAHA

you mean those "win farm boards"? or the previous "KMDD farm boards"?

not even the leaderboard have a proper skill indicating sorting

*steps on and crushes the mic*













--seriously, look who leads the current one --

(comes back with duct tape and fixes mic)

It's the perfect zero sum solution. The ones that wins the most will face each other, and the/us losers will fight other losers...

[Lukoi Banacek]

Which stat should you sort by then?

WLR, KDR, Avg Matchscore? Some formula that considers all three and is weighted some how? Do we need a more granular leaderboard that further breaks down information by pug versus group queue? That uses individual chassis stats as part of the formula?

Since all three are currently influenced by the tiers people currently fall in, you would have a significantly shocking period of adjustment for some folks, but not insurmountable. But where would new players go? With no data, an understandable lack of knowledge in the game, etc, it would need a special MM consideration for those accounts.

Any minimum # of matches before moving from newb level to open MM? Plus, you again have consider the shock of going from the new player pool to gen pop. It might turn off alot of on the fence players and this game needs to attract and retain new players, not scare them off.

Not that I would consider the Leaderboard option a bad idea vice the current win/lose + matchscore experience bar we currently have. Simple that it doesnt address the crucial integration of new players and requires a significant number of matches played before,its a statistically viable predictor of "skill" by which to matchmaker.

Edited by Lukoi Banacek, 22 July 2016 - 06:05 AM.

[adamts01]

Lily from animove, on 22 July 2016 - 04:45 AM, said:

HAHAHA

you mean those "win farm boards"? or the previous "KMDD farm boards"?

not even the leaderboard have a proper skill indicating sorting

*steps on and crushes the mic*

--seriously, look who leads the current one --

It just depends on what stats you use. Use W/L and things will sort themselves out nicely, eventually.

[Squirg]

[Narcissistic Martyr]

Yes... YES... YEEEEEEESSS

My comparatively lower score due to piloting lights shall put me against bads in queue. Muwahahahahahahahaaa!!!!!! An ye did Narcissistic Martyr become death, destroyer of rear armor and bane of PuG queue.

[NoiseCrypt]

Lukoi Banacek, on 22 July 2016 - 06:04 AM, said:

Which stat should you sort by then?

WLR, KDR, Avg Matchscore? Some formula that considers all three and is weighted some how? Do we need a more granular leaderboard that further breaks down information by pug versus group queue? That uses individual chassis stats as part of the formula?

Since all three are currently influenced by the tiers people currently fall in, you would have a significantly shocking period of adjustment for some folks, but not insurmountable. But where would new players go? With no data, an understandable lack of knowledge in the game, etc, it would need a special MM consideration for those accounts.

Any minimum # of matches before moving from newb level to open MM? Plus, you again have consider the shock of going from the new player pool to gen pop. It might turn off alot of on the fence players and this game needs to attract and retain new players, not scare them off.

Not that I would consider the Leaderboard option a bad idea vice the current win/lose + matchscore experience bar we currently have. Simple that it doesnt address the crucial integration of new players and requires a significant number of matches played before,its a statistically viable predictor of "skill" by which to matchmaker.

I agree with everything you say. Just didn't want to start it all with a wall of text

I think that the biggest problem with the leader-board right now is the tier system. I want to put some more thought into the actual "stats" used for determining the individual player level, before posting a detailed proposal, but the thing that people should remember is that zero-sum is self adjusting/correcting. So don't judge a leader board based MM on the failings of the Tier based MM.

Regarding new players they should just start out at wood/garbage/0 level.
The real problem that i can't figure out right now is how the match maker should decide where to draw the "level lines", when collecting players for a match.

Edited by NoiseCrypt, 22 July 2016 - 06:29 AM.

[Brizna]

WUT

[NoiseCrypt]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 22 July 2016 - 06:22 AM, said:

Yes... YES... YEEEEEEESSS

My comparatively lower score due to piloting lights shall put me against bads in queue. Muwahahahahahahahaaa!!!!!! An ye did Narcissistic Martyr become death, destroyer of rear armor and bane of PuG queue.

And then your score would rise...and you would end up at a perfect place of balance and harmony in the universe.

[Narcissistic Martyr]

NoiseCrypt, on 22 July 2016 - 06:27 AM, said:

And then your score would rise...and you would end up at a perfect place of balance and harmony in the universe.

Yes but I get to have fun for a few weeks. Kind of like how I got dropped into tier 5 for the same reason (comparatively low damage when match score was 95% damage and that's how they seeded the tiers). Didn't stay there long (about 2 weeks to hit tier 3 from there) but oh did I have fun. Plus I taught the new seals the value of paying attention to where you are and what's going on so that's good.

[Lily from animove]

adamts01, on 22 July 2016 - 06:10 AM, said:

It just depends on what stats you use. Use W/L and things will sort themselves out nicely, eventually.

well, W/L maybe followed by K/D could work.

but even K/D is a fishy thing as KMDD's K/D and stuff cna befarmed. yet W/L i maybe the most unfarmable at all. it's hard to say which but many are just not skill rlated. Same with score as it is connected too much to Damage.

[NoiseCrypt]

Narcissistic Martyr, on 22 July 2016 - 06:33 AM, said:

Yes but I get to have fun for a few weeks. Kind of like how I got dropped into tier 5 for the same reason (comparatively low damage when match score was 95% damage and that's how they seeded the tiers). Didn't stay there long (about 2 weeks to hit tier 3 from there) but oh did I have fun. Plus I taught the new seals the value of paying attention to where you are and what's going on so that's good.

I don't think you understand how fast a system like this would adjust the player match-up.

[Mystere]

In the end, the only thing that matters is the ability to win.

[NoiseCrypt]

Lily from animove, on 22 July 2016 - 06:38 AM, said:

well, W/L maybe followed by K/D could work.

but even K/D is a fishy thing as KMDD's K/D and stuff cna befarmed. yet W/L i maybe the most unfarmable at all. it's hard to say which but many are just not skill rlated. Same with score as it is connected too much to Damage.

I actually think that W/L would work really well, since skilled players carrying the matches would be pushed up the ladder.
The only thing missing is that the MM must ensure that players who have recently won a match together, should be put on opposing teams. I know some might still share a team, but that would increase their chance of being opponents next time.

And i have no idea how any of this would work for the group queue.... unless.... maybe we won't need a group queue anymore...

[Bilbo]

Mystere, on 22 July 2016 - 06:43 AM, said:

In the end, the only thing that matters is the ability to win.

Sounds surprisingly like the Elo system we had that everyone seemed to hate, except this would be much more volatile.

[NoiseCrypt]

Bilbo, on 22 July 2016 - 06:46 AM, said:

Sounds surprisingly like the Elo system we had that everyone seemed to hate, except this would be much more volatile.

(sshhh.... don't just put it out there like that...)

An interesting read btw (the comments at least...).
https://www.themitta...pful-or-harmful

[Dremnon]

The problem with the current system is that eventually everyone will end up as a Tier 1 pilot no matter the skill level, but not all Tier 1 pilots are the same. There has to be a leveled system that accounts for a few different factors for quick play. I'm a big believer that it should start with the number of matches played as the primary divider, as it is a constant that shows everyone should have the same experience. From there you go to a secondary divider, something like the pilots KDR or Damage per match. Someone with 1000 matches played with a 3.25 KDR shouldn't be playing against someone with 1000 matches played and a 0.5 KDR. Win/loss shouldn't be a factor, as I've been in enough matches where I see someone go 5/6/1000 and lose, which isn't a reflection of how well that pilot actually did.

Now whether or not the player population exists to do that, tough to say.

[NoiseCrypt]

As i understand it. The main reason that they went away from ELO, was because some people where/are sad about their W/L ratio declining.

But couldn't the leader-board remove that incentive ?

• Right now the leader-board doesn't actually make sense, since it's based people being matched up based on tier rather than skill.
  
• With ELO, the leader-board could actually show players real skill level/standing. If it was based on the right stats, and the MM could ensure that earlier teammates would end up as opponents later matches.

If people want the greatest degree of balanced game-play possible, they have to accept that everyone's W/L ratio should be going towards 0.5. Actually it would never end up 0.5 for everyone, as some people wrongly assume.
But does the W/L ratio even matter if the leader-board would reflect a players actual skill ?

With an ELO/zero-sum based MM and a leader-board showing actual skill level. Wouldn't the only people complaining be the ones that doesn't want a fair/even fight ?

It should be no problem hiding people from the leader-board if someone doesn't want their ranking shown publicly.

Am i missing something ?

[XX Sulla XX]

Just basing it on wins would not work well for this game. They do need a good formula that takes into account many different things.

Interestingly I tend to just look at KDR over a enough games for it to average out. I do not know of any really good players with really low KDR. And I also do not use it so much as a measure of fine grained measure of skill but just a measure of basic competence. If you can keep a good KDR is tier 1 you have at least a basic ability to play.

Maybe KDR + games played is the best way to make matches? All of the top players that tend to play together tend to have very high KDRs. There is a big middle group with a .8 or so KDR I believe and then a bottom group with a low KDR. Any new player that is good will have low games but a good KDR so you can still move them up by looking at that.

Also if you have tier one players with lots of games played and very very high KDRs it would probably be a good idea to match them against each other rather than tier 1 players with just OK KDRs.