38 replies to this topic

[ScrapIron Prime]

Let's say you're at the store with your mother. And on the way out she gives you a quarter. You could put this coin in your pocket, or you could pull out a few more and head over to the candy and gum machines by the exit. You do this, because you can see the neat Harley Davidson zipper pull behind the glass, so you put in your quarter plus a few other coins, turn the handle and...

Out comes a gummy frog. And now you're angry at your mother for some reason for giving you the quarter.

...

I use the child analogy because I see a lot of people angry at PGI for giving them caches worth 50,000 cBills. Yes, you can spend MC to trade up for a random thing (which seems to always be worth 300,000 cBills or more, or costs more than 25 MC to buy), but the fact of the matter is they gave you a free thing. It's up to you whether you walk by the gum machine or not.

[Mudhutwarrior]

ScrapIron Prime, on 22 July 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

Let's say you're at the store with your mother. And on the way out she gives you a quarter. You could put this coin in your pocket, or you could pull out a few more and head over to the candy and gum machines by the exit. You do this, because you can see the neat Harley Davidson zipper pull behind the glass, so you put in your quarter plus a few other coins, turn the handle and...

Out comes a gummy frog. And now you're angry at your mother for some reason for giving you the quarter.

...

I use the child analogy because I see a lot of people angry at PGI for giving them caches worth 50,000 cBills. Yes, you can spend MC to trade up for a random thing (which seems to always be worth 300,000 cBills or more, or costs more than 25 MC to buy), but the fact of the matter is they gave you a free thing. It's up to you whether you walk by the gum machine or not.

You skip over the whole principle of this operation called caches. It's meant as a money grab just like the roulette tables. Only difference it sometimes in roulette you can hit big. Here you might win a night with a call girl with a really deep voice.

[ScrapIron Prime]

Mudhutwarrior, on 22 July 2016 - 08:17 AM, said:

You skip over the whole principle of this operation called caches. It's meant as a money grab just like the roulette tables. Only difference it sometimes in roulette you can hit big. Here you might win a night with a call girl with a really deep voice.

Yes, but you don't have to play. There no stigma or penalty to just pocketing the 50,000 cBills and going on with your life.

[Antares102]

This hole supply cache whining just shows the entitlement people feel when paying money for something.
I read it so many times in a subtile way.
If somebody pays 25 MC for a key he's angry when the reward is not more than 25 MC (or whatever he feels is the equivalent).

Guys.. dont gamble if you cant stand the result = losing money.

Edited by Antares102, 22 July 2016 - 08:55 AM.

[Bud Crue]

ScrapIron Prime, on 22 July 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

I use the child analogy because I see a lot of people angry at PGI for giving them caches worth 50,000 cBills. Yes, you can spend MC to trade up for a random thing (which seems to always be worth 300,000 cBills or more, or costs more than 25 MC to buy), but the fact of the matter is they gave you a free thing. It's up to you whether you walk by the gum machine or not.

Don't care about value or morality of gambling. I care about the game and how the goodie crate mechanism just doesn't fit imho.

If PGI had decided on mechanism where a random player on the winning side of the match received a bonus 50k cbills as a "combat bonus" or something along those lines, I would have no problem with it. But no. We now have a slot machine mechanism in this here "mechwarrior online, a battletech game" as a potential extra reward in exchange for some MC.

If PGI wants money I am happy to give it to them if it makes the game better. Heck offer more cockpit items that give a c-bill bonus for MC. That actually fits with the game we have. Slot machines just seem an odd addition.

To me it would be like in your analogy involving mom taking her sweet little tyke to the store and instead of buying him a gumball as a reward for good behavior, Mom buys him a ticket to an S & M club. The reward mechanism just doesn't fit the environment of that story does it? To each his/her own and all that, but ya gotta admit that it would be a bit out of place in that environment.

[nehebkau]

ScrapIron Prime, on 22 July 2016 - 08:14 AM, said:

Out comes a gummy frog. And now you're angry at your mother for some reason for giving you the quarter.

Your analogy fails here, because the quarter is yours in the first place. The child, in this case, gets mad at the owner of the toy dispenser because he lost his quarter getting something he didn't want.

Some people just don't realize that random = you may not get what you want. I can't remember in which journal I red the study, it was a long time ago, but I remember that this study found that almost half of adults they studied believed that they could, in some way, affect random outcomes in a closed system by force of will. As I remember it there was a high degree of confirmation bias involved.

@BUD. Once again PGI ignores the MANY good ideas about increasing monetization in the game to go their own way and, again, end up with something that isn't all that great. Sadly, I am not that surprised.

Edited by nehebkau, 22 July 2016 - 08:44 AM.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Mudhutwarrior, on 22 July 2016 - 08:17 AM, said:

You skip over the whole principle of this operation called caches. It's meant as a money grab just like the roulette tables. Only difference it sometimes in roulette you can hit big. Here you might win a night with a call girl with a really deep voice.

No, you are a liar. Roulette tables do not have a 100% payout rate. Supply caches do. You ether get 50,000 C-Bills for free, or you get something worth more than 25 MC for 25MC.

Stop trolling.

[1453 R]

Mudhutwarrior, on 22 July 2016 - 08:17 AM, said:

You skip over the whole principle of this operation called caches. It's meant as a money grab just like the roulette tables. Only difference it sometimes in roulette you can hit big. Here you might win a night with a call girl with a really deep voice.

Stop right there, buddy.

A roulette table gives you a small chance to win something and a very large chance to win absolutely nothing.

A Supply Cache is like a booster pack of cards in a card game - whether you get what you wanted is up in the air, but you will always get something for your 25MC. You never outright lose your MC.

All this "It's the PRINCIPLE of the thing(!!!)" horses*** is just that - HORSES***. It's a bunch of the same salt-mining bittervets raising a ruckus because Piranha added something to the game that wasn't A Tabletop Simulator™. The addition of supply caches has zero effect on gameplay and likely required rleatively little in the way of development resources to produce. They do not 'clutter up' inventory, and if you somehow feel that they do, Piranha has given you an option to sell them for 50k C-bills - which is over and above the C-bill payout you get normally from games.

It's all win. It's not a big win if you just sell all your caches for 50k every twenty-fourth game, but it's still pure win. You're not losing anything or being bothered in any way. The only cause for complaint nasty-minded Black Knights hurl out there is that Piranha DARES to have the sheer gall to try and pay their bills.

Not everything Piranha does is a cynical, evil-minded cash grab. So seriously. Just...shut up, okay?

Edited by 1453 R, 22 July 2016 - 08:53 AM.

[Mawai]

Mudhutwarrior, on 22 July 2016 - 08:17 AM, said:

You skip over the whole principle of this operation called caches. It's meant as a money grab just like the roulette tables. Only difference it sometimes in roulette you can hit big. Here you might win a night with a call girl with a really deep voice.

Lol. The difference is that the supply cache can be sold for 50k c-bills (unlike a roulette table it actually has an intrinsic value in game terms). It is a freebie with a possible upgrade if you want to put in some RL money. Almost all the options are actually worth more than 50k cbills as a consolation AND there is the possibility of getting something worthwhile (or the player would not have spent the 25MC to upgrade in the first place).

No matter which way you look at it ... PGI has given you something extra that is worth ingame currency. Period. It is a personal choice whether you want to spend MC for a possible upgrade or not. It isn't a cash grab though it does play on the weakness of certain folks to games of chance ... but unlike a game of chance ... you are given a stake that has an intrinsic value in game terms that mostly (if not always) goes up if you spend the MC. The random part is exactly how much the value will go up if you decide to spend your MC.

The frustration comes from the fact that (as with any chance based system) the odds of getting the big prizes are less than the smaller ones. For example, lets say there was a free mech in every supply cache you open .. and lets say that the odds of getting one are 1/8 (it doesn't have to even but lets assume it is). How many crates do you need to open to get a 50/50 chance of getting a mech?

The odds of NOT getting a mech are 7/8. The odds of not getting one after N supply caches is (7/8)^N ... the odds of getting the one you want are 1.0 - (7/8)^N .... so for a probability of 0.5 or 50% ... you need to open about 5 supply caches to get a 48.8% chance of getting that one item. So about 1/2 the time out of opening 5 supply caches you will get one of the items you were hoping to get.

So what about 90%? How many crates do you have to open to get a 9/10 chance of getting ONE item from ONE crate that you actually wanted? You have to open 17 crates to get an 89.7% chance of getting what you wanted from ONE crate. And there will still be that one person in 10 who can open 17 crates and NEVER get the item that they were hoping for.

The bottom line is that even if the odds of getting what you want are 1/8 ... you have to open A LOT of crates to even have a decent chance of getting the item you are hoping for ... some people will be lucky and get it on the first shot ... but not most.

This is why folks get frustrated. It is often difficult to judge just what your chances of getting the reward you want might be ...

[1453 R]

Mawai, on 22 July 2016 - 08:53 AM, said:

...
This is why folks get frustrated. It is often difficult to judge just what your chances of getting the reward you want might be ...

Something for people to keep in mind, when they're lambasting Piranha for caches.

Q.) What are your odds of being able to buy a Highlander-IIC for 25 MC?

A.) Higher than they were last week.

Low odds are better than "this is outright impossible", eh?

[Alistair Winter]

The only correct response to the supply cache thing is apathy.

PGI is offering a terrible, terrible deal. Just say no, pocket the cash and move on.

[Mawai]

Bud Crue, on 22 July 2016 - 08:42 AM, said:

Don't care about value or morality of gambling. I care about the game and how the goodie crate mechanism just doesn't fit imho.

If PGI had decided on mechanism where a random player on the winning side of the match received a bonus 50k cbills as a "combat bonus" or something along those lines, I would have no problem with it. But no. We now have a slot machine mechanism in this here "mechwarrior online, a battletech game" as a potential extra reward in exchange for some MC.

If PGI wants money I am happy to give it to them if it makes the game better. Heck offer more cockpit items that give a c-bill bonus for MC. That actually fits with the game we have. Slot machines just seem an odd addition.

To me it would be like in your analogy involving mom taking her sweet little tyke to the store and instead of buying him a gumball as a reward for good behavior, Mom buys him a ticket to an S & M club. The reward mechanism just doesn't fit the environment of that story does it? To each his/her own and all that, but ya gotta admit that it would be a bit out of place in that environment.

Interesting.

The odd thing is that, from a lore perspective or role playing or mechwarrior or Battletech perspective ... I find the whole supply crate mechanism actually fits with the Battletech salvage concept better than a lot of the other game mechanisms.

In Battletech, the winning side usually recovers mechs and salvages the field. This results in the salvage bonus in the payout.

The "supply crates" are just an enhancement of the salvage system.

The contract for the op now stipulates that one of the mechwarriors on the winning side is offered a selection of salvage from the mission. The mechwarrior then has the choice to sell this collection of salvage to the salvage operator at a fixed rate of 50k cbills or they can dig into their own private resources and have the salvage assessed and anything useful transferred to their private hangar. The mechwarrior takes a look at the contents of the salvage pod and then decides to either send it off to the general salvage or pay the modest fee to see if any of it is functional and can be transferred to their hangar.

The entire concept actually fits very smoothly into the Battletech lore. Each mechwarrior is operating a business in outfitting and maintaining their mechs (or something equivalent from the clan side). If they win the rights to some salvage from the field, they then decide whether to spend resources to have it assessed or not. Those resources include time and effort from their techs and support teams (so are paid in MC instead of cbills ... if you want a lore reason for MC over cbill costs ).

Personally, I don't think it is a big deal

On the other hand, stompy mechs with giant smiley faces seem a little odd

[1453 R]

Alistair Winter, on 22 July 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

The only correct response to the supply cache thing is apathy.

PGI is offering a terrible, terrible deal. Just say no, pocket the cash and move on.

Apathy is fine. It's the folks who're trying to turn this into another "BURN THE HERETICS!!1!" crusade that get my goat up.

[Elizander]

My issue is that the contents of the crate are rather dull and perhaps resources are tight at PGI, but these loot boxes usually have unique and custom items in them that you do not get anywhere else. Nothing kills excitement and the wonder of opening a gift box like getting another flamer or jump jet. :3

Mawai, on 22 July 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

On the other hand, stompy mechs with giant smiley faces seem a little odd

I think it's the way it covers up certain areas of the mech. Doesn't look like paint. :3

[Mudhutwarrior]

Well we clearly Identified the white knights in this thread.

simple easy......

[Stormbringer13]

Antares102, on 22 July 2016 - 08:35 AM, said:

This hole supply cache whining just shows the entitlement people feel when paying money for something.
I read it so many times in a subtile way.
If somebody pays 25 MC for a key he's angry when the reward is not more than 25 MC (or whatever he feels is the equivalent).

Guys.. dont gamble if you cant stand the result = losing money.

well, if it's gambling, then there are certain state and Federal regulations involved. Some states may not allow participation in, or collection of prizes. There may also be legal recourse for losses.


now, considering the fact that PGI just rolled out badges and decals, you would think that they would either:
a) give some away as prizes in the caches or
at least put the older colors and camos in as prizes instead

Edited by Stormbringer13, 22 July 2016 - 09:17 AM.

[Omaha]

Yet another feature that Units can indulge in free of charge.

[Bud Crue]

Mawai, on 22 July 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

Interesting.

The odd thing is that, from a lore perspective or role playing or mechwarrior or Battletech perspective ... I find the whole supply crate mechanism actually fits with the Battletech salvage concept better than a lot of the other game mechanisms.

In Battletech, the winning side usually recovers mechs and salvages the field. This results in the salvage bonus in the payout.

The "supply crates" are just an enhancement of the salvage system.

The contract for the op now stipulates that one of the mechwarriors on the winning side is offered a selection of salvage from the mission. The mechwarrior then has the choice to sell this collection of salvage to the salvage operator at a fixed rate of 50k cbills or they can dig into their own private resources and have the salvage assessed and anything useful transferred to their private hangar. The mechwarrior takes a look at the contents of the salvage pod and then decides to either send it off to the general salvage or pay the modest fee to see if any of it is functional and can be transferred to their hangar.

The entire concept actually fits very smoothly into the Battletech lore. Each mechwarrior is operating a business in outfitting and maintaining their mechs (or something equivalent from the clan side). If they win the rights to some salvage from the field, they then decide whether to spend resources to have it assessed or not. Those resources include time and effort from their techs and support teams (so are paid in MC instead of cbills ... if you want a lore reason for MC over cbill costs ).

Personally, I don't think it is a big deal

On the other hand, stompy mechs with giant smiley faces seem a little odd

If we had your "contract stipulation" and instead of what we actually have: "BOB HAS BEEN AWARDED A GOODIE CRATE!" (or whatever it says), I'd probably be cool with it. With your idea the reward notice ought to say something like: "Mechwarrior Bob, for valor under fire, has been awarded first pick of the salvage from this battle" and then internally in Bob's mechlab the rest of your hypo would play out. With that sort of immersive mechanism I would probably have no issue. But without your active imagination, what we have instead is Bob and his goodie crate...and a subsequent game of slots. To me that is just kinda lame.

I don't really care about this fairly minor mechanism honestly, but it does show the laziness of devs in how they approach the game and suggests a direction for the game that I don't think many of us are real excited about. When apathy is the up side of something there is a problem.

Mudhutwarrior, on 22 July 2016 - 09:13 AM, said:

Well we clearly Identified the white knights in this thread.

simple easy......

There are White Knights still?

[Mawai]

Mudhutwarrior, on 22 July 2016 - 09:13 AM, said:

Well we clearly Identified the white knights in this thread.

simple easy......

Really?

Personally, I don't mind the supply caches ... as I said above they are a freebie choice and can be fit into the lore if looked at correctly.

On the other hand, I am quite willing to express criticism of PGI in other areas more directly relevant to game play ... the utter and complete lack (almost) of motivators for long term player retention and reasons to "just play the next match" beyond the intrinsic game play that has remained more or less the same since closed beta ... being one of my pet peeves

[TWIAFU]

ScrapIron Prime, on 22 July 2016 - 08:21 AM, said:

Yes, but you don't have to play. There no stigma or penalty to just pocketing the 50,000 cBills and going on with your life.

Not to mention the difference people willingly and purposefully skip over is the fact that gambling, roulette in this case, you can and usually LOOSE your bet and gain nothing. Just like, I dunno, gambling.

Supply Caches and Keys bought with $.09, yes NINE CENTS, you do not loose. For your nine cents, you always win. You never loose, you never risk anything, you can not ever not get something for your nine cent "bet".

The ONLY "gamble" here is on people sense of entitlement and thinking they should get exactly what they want for the caches and when they want it.

Stormbringer13, on 22 July 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

well, if it's gambling, then there are certain state and Federal regulations involved. Some states may not allow participation in, or collection of prizes. There may also be legal recourse for losses.


now, considering the fact that PGI just rolled out badges and decals, you would think that they would either:
a) give some away as prizes in the caches or
at least put the older colors and camos in as prizes instead

And....

Taxes!

Have to pay taxes on your winnings.