19 replies to this topic

[Chrithu]

I'm sitting bored at work right now reading the forums. Just stumbled across the latest "Need new mech" thread and in it read the discussion on how People want high weapon Mounts and how stuffing small lasers doesn't bump a gauss high enough.

Which got me thinking: Is there a problem with MWO's maps having too much horizontal cover compared to vertical cover that warrants for the desire for "look over" builds rather than "look around" builds??

In my own limited experience it is indeed the case that for instance my Ilya Murromets does a lot better on maps like Mining Collective than maps like Polar Highlands. Especially if I use "Shield" builds on it. Same goes for my Centurions.

I mean I am Aware that "look around" almost always means you expose a full half of your mech, but still I'd like to do equally good on any map with a given mech. Especially since they are random selected.

Edited by Jason Parker, 22 July 2016 - 10:00 AM.

[Juodas Varnas]

Quadrupeds would be great at using both types of cover. Low profile with high mounted weapons would be great for hill-peeking and their ability to sidestrafe would be useful for peeking round corners.

#VoteForScorpion

[BigBenn]

Certain mechs do better on certain maps. The Cataphract and Warhammer are two prime examples where low arms lend to moving around cover better than moving over cover. Mechs like the Shadow Hawk, Battlemaster, and other mechs with the high mounted weapons are great for shooting over terrain (cover).

The fun thing about the random maps is to try and adapt each loadout on each mech for each map. Getting stuck with the Alpine map while in a Wang is trying for anyone, staying alive long enough to be able to get within 400m it not easy to do. If you're that Archer with nothing but LRM's, and the mining map comes up, be mindful where you set up. Etc, etc.

Roll the dice and enjoy!

[Chrithu]

I do in fact approach it like that most of the time @BigBenn. It is a challenge and I accept it. Otherwise I'd be bothered by a game, which is supposed to be entertaining not bothersome.

Still I think mapmaking could improve lots by considering this and trying to Balance horizontal and vertical cover especially on hotspots. For instance Forest Colony does it very well by havig Containers placed, though only at one of the hotspots.

Caustic Valley Comes to mind as well. It has good opportunities for both kinds of cover at almost all the important places, but the overall design is lacking a bit, stearing People into NASCARs 90% of the time.

Edited by Jason Parker, 22 July 2016 - 10:31 AM.

[Tarogato]

I've been saying this for a while. It's why we need some flat strictly urban metropolis maps. Not this half-аss ѕhit we get with Crimson Straight and River City, but an actual city map. Minimal elevation changes, so side-peeking builds are favoured. No large areas with long sightlines, so brawling builds are favoured.

Edited by Tarogato, 22 July 2016 - 11:19 AM.

[Tristan Winter]

Tarogato, on 22 July 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

I've been saying this for a while. It's why we need some flat strictly urban metropolis maps. Not this half-аss ѕhit we get with Crimson Straight and River City, but an actual city map. Minimal elevation changes, so side-peeking builds are favoured. No large areas with long sightlines, so brawling builds are favoured.

The one type of map basically all MWO players are asking for, the one map almost everyone seem to agree would be great in the game. The one type of map that is basically impossible to do wrong ,since you don't have to worry about how to balance it. It's just a bunch of buildings, after all.

And watch, this is the one map MWO will never have. We will probably get exotic alien meadows, we will get giant mountains on asteroids, we will get underground mushroom farms, we will get rocky desert slime pools, we will get all kinds of crazy environments. But we will never get the metropolis we've asked for since 2012.

I will bet you a mech pack.

[Tarogato]

Tristan Winter, on 22 July 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

The one type of map basically all MWO players are asking for, the one map almost everyone seem to agree would be great in the game. The one type of map that is basically impossible to do wrong ,since you don't have to worry about how to balance it. It's just a bunch of buildings, after all.

And watch, this is the one map MWO will never have. We will probably get exotic alien meadows, we will get giant mountains on asteroids, we will get underground mushroom farms, we will get rocky desert slime pools, we will get all kinds of crazy environments. But we will never get the metropolis we've asked for since 2012.

I will bet you a mech pack.

If I'm still playing at the time, I'll take you on for that mechpack, lol. I do actually expect them to get it in eventually (kek), but it will probably be at least another 6 months before they even announce it and it will probably launch with terrible framerates.



Edit: JESUS PGI I FIXED YOUR EMOTICONS FOR YOU 18 MONTHS AGO, GET WITH IT.

Edited by Tarogato, 22 July 2016 - 11:32 AM.

[Clownwarlord]

Problem is then low tiers will complain about it being a nerf to lrms because people will have to much cover.

[Pjwned]

The reason that wide cover is more popular than tall cover is you can't strafe properly in a mech.

It's not a matter of tall, narrow cover not being prevalent enough.

[C E Dwyer]

Lurms ...don't want horizontal cover unless its sloped ..which means no real cover

[Chrithu]

Pjwned, on 22 July 2016 - 11:39 AM, said:

The reason that wide cover is more popular than tall cover is you can't strafe properly in a mech.

It's not a matter of tall, narrow cover not being prevalent enough.

I don't think so. If anything then peeking over a hill is even worse than peeking around a corner because of the incline. Both have the mech move forward and then backward again. And last I checked all mechs can turn their torso 90° to either side against the legs so they can strafe out and back into cover just fine.

The Lurm argument makes more sense almost.

Anyhow. The Lurm talk and BigBenn's argument actually made me think that other than more balanced maps, it would be cool if QP would go like this:

• Choose weight class
  
• Vote for map
  
• Choose mech out of chosen weight class to bring into the map.

Edited by Jason Parker, 22 July 2016 - 12:15 PM.

[Tristan Winter]

Tarogato, on 22 July 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:

If I'm still playing at the time, I'll take you on for that mechpack, lol. I do actually expect them to get it in eventually (kek), but it will probably be at least another 6 months before they even announce it and it will probably launch with terrible framerates.
Edit: JESUS PGI I FIXED YOUR EMOTICONS FOR YOU 18 MONTHS AGO, GET WITH IT.

Probably terrible framerates, but when they explained how they redesigned River City, they said that one of the key aspects of keeping the framerate down was to create visual walls so your computer didn't have to render everything behind those walls all the time. Well, by that logic, a metropolis with skyscrapers should be ideal, right?

Anyway. A bet's a bet. I look forward to getting that mech pack from you unless PGI announces a metropolis map in the next 6 months

[Elizander]

I blame all those hills :3

A map would have to be pretty flat in order for side-peeking to be a thing.

Edited by Elizander, 22 July 2016 - 12:15 PM.

[Chrithu]

Elizander, on 22 July 2016 - 12:14 PM, said:

I blame all those hills :3

A map would have to be pretty flat in order for side-peeking to be a thing.

Like I mentioned before: Caustic Valley is a good example of a map that has both types of cover on a lot of important positions still offering differing elevations. It lacks in other parts of the design no questions there. But as far as being suited for peek over and peek around gameplay at the same time it is one the better maps we have. Same goes for the city parts of frozen city.

So there are examples that what you say is not necessarily true.

Edited by Jason Parker, 22 July 2016 - 12:21 PM.

[Tarogato]

Tristan Winter, on 22 July 2016 - 12:12 PM, said:

Probably terrible framerates, but when they explained how they redesigned River City, they said that one of the key aspects of keeping the framerate down was to create visual walls so your computer didn't have to render everything behind those walls all the time. Well, by that logic, a metropolis with skyscrapers should be ideal, right?

Anyway. A bet's a bet. I look forward to getting that mech pack from you unless PGI announces a metropolis map in the next 6 months

Hey, I didn't bet you one, you betted me one. That's how this works, right? =P

Edited by Tarogato, 22 July 2016 - 10:00 PM.

[El Bandito]

Tristan Winter, on 22 July 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

The one type of map basically all MWO players are asking for, the one map almost everyone seem to agree would be great in the game. The one type of map that is basically impossible to do wrong, since you don't have to worry about how to balance it. It's just a bunch of buildings, after all.

But, but my LRMs!

Edited by El Bandito, 22 July 2016 - 07:12 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Tristan Winter, on 22 July 2016 - 11:25 AM, said:

The one type of map basically all MWO players are asking for, the one map almost everyone seem to agree would be great in the game. The one type of map that is basically impossible to do wrong ,since you don't have to worry about how to balance it. It's just a bunch of buildings, after all.

And watch, this is the one map MWO will never have. We will probably get exotic alien meadows, we will get giant mountains on asteroids, we will get underground mushroom farms, we will get rocky desert slime pools, we will get all kinds of crazy environments. But we will never get the metropolis we've asked for since 2012.

I will bet you a mech pack.

Thats Battletech , not Star Wars or Star trek , is more near the real world and this rules in biological and Physics ;-) No Aliencultures like Star wars or Stra Trek , only Alien Wildlife , and this never to monstrous like Star wars ...more like 12m Megasaurs ,5 m Insects, Animals more in the Sized of recent and Prehistoric animals,

In the Periphery worlds many Alien Jungles Worlds with bizzare and not to monsterous Creatures ...Alien Meadows is cool ,with bizzare "Gigantic" 20m High Creatures like prehistoric Sauropods





A Asteroid Factorys with less gravity , a World like Jupiter, with very Less Gravity and enormous Creatures Filtering Animals in the Air is ok for BT



Desert worlds with enormous Sandcrawling Animals to 20m (not Monstrous Centipedes like Dune Worms as Landliving Animals) venormous Animals only in Worlds with low gravity or in the Sea, like the rezent Whales

...the most worlds, terraforming to habitats like the Earth ,with Citys like the Earth...in the bT universe the focus is the Human Culture with the Warmachinery ,the ideological and Political Direction...more like games of thrones in a far Future

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 22 July 2016 - 09:32 PM.

[Pjwned]

El Bandito, on 22 July 2016 - 07:11 PM, said:

But, but my LRMs!

If we had destructible buildings then it might be less of a crapshoot to have LRMs on a map like that.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Pjwned, on 22 July 2016 - 09:22 PM, said:

If we had destructible buildings then it might be less of a crapshoot to have LRMs on a map like that.

With the Serverbased Programming of MWO (lower performance vs better against Cheats )and the cryengine ,never seeing to many destructable Objects...thats not the Frostbite Engine from battlefield or the Dagor Engine 4.0 from War Thunder

[Yellonet]

If you have high mounts, and look over a cover you can use all your high mounted weapons.
If you have low mounts and look around a cover you can usually only use half your weapons, unless you purposefully mount them to one side, but then you can only peek effectively to that side...

Edited by Yellonet, 23 July 2016 - 01:49 AM.