48 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

MeiSooHaityu, on 25 July 2016 - 07:35 AM, said:

The Blackjack is a 45 ton medium performing like a 45 ton medium. It's very close to the lower limit of what a medium mech is, so the fragile part seems about right. At least the BJ has high weapon mounts going for it unlike it's 45 ton level of durability cousins (Vindicator and Phoenix Hawk).

The issue is that what it pays in durability it should gain elsewhere. A mech shouldn't be simply bad because it's 45t. Being a slow 45 tonner, it should twist fast and very far - unlike it's brothers it can't get a good twist rate via being fast, so it needs some heavy twist quirks, as well as yaw range AND turn rate.

[Y E O N N E]

Wintersdark, on 25 July 2016 - 04:20 PM, said:

The issue is that what it pays in durability it should gain elsewhere. A mech shouldn't be simply bad because it's 45t. Being a slow 45 tonner, it should twist fast and very far - unlike it's brothers it can't get a good twist rate via being fast, so it needs some heavy twist quirks, as well as yaw range AND turn rate.

The face-time from full-duration IS lasers also sucks. A Clan 'Mech can put a burn on you for 0.9 seconds with six cERML and do more damage than you did with six isML. That's not okay, either, and that ignores the other IS 'Mechs with duration quirks.

10% puts them at DPT parity.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 25 July 2016 - 04:27 PM.

[GrimRiver]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 25 July 2016 - 02:18 PM, said:

Being a buffed 45 ton mech isn't really a good spot when you have the two worst mediums in the game as company.....

What did you expect it's a 45 ton mech.

It's the size of a medium mech with slightly more armor then a light mech,
it's those types of mechs are in a awkward weight class, like 35-40-45 tons.

Besides it was always meant for sniper role with it's high mounted hardpoints like the Jager and Rifleman and not face tanking like a brawler.

[Y E O N N E]

GrimRiver, on 25 July 2016 - 04:50 PM, said:

What did you expect it's a 45 ton mech.

It's the size of a medium mech with slightly more armor then a light mech,
it's those types of mechs are in a awkward weight class, like 35-40-45 tons.

Besides it was always meant for sniper role with it's high mounted hardpoints like the Jager and Rifleman and not face tanking like a brawler.

Without the tonnage to mount significantly threatening sniping weapons? Please.

Even with those crazy AC/2 buffs, you don't exactly see them running amok.

[AmazingOnionMan]

Trauglodyte, on 25 July 2016 - 03:13 PM, said:

People need to understand that mechs are going to continue to get nerfed as we continue to bastardize the mechs we drive. None of the BJs needed the nerf. But, people are running them with double and triple Large Pulse Lasers or multitudes of Medium Lasers/Large Lasers, thus turning them into mechs that can dish out much more damage than intended. This, as a result, forces PGI to take what should be something much more tame and beat it into the dirt because of us and our need to push things beyond the designed limits. So, f all of you for ruining a great mech and turning into less than it should have been. Is it weak? Eh, not too much so but it is still less than it should have been.

Now, if PGI would just fix quirks so that you get added benefits for running stock or near stock builds. How nice it would be to gain some lost structure quirks for running AC/2s on the BJ-1. *sigh*

True, but whose fault is it - the playerbase for playing with the toys we're given, or PGI for putting hardpoint-inflated legomechs and a close to no-cost mechlab into a sandbox of questionable design?
You see the inevitable result of the latter: calling for higher engine cap, better agility, quirks and whatnot. And it is understandable, at this point a LPL-BJ is not playing to the meta, it is desperately acting in self-defence.

[Y E O N N E]

I also wish people would stop complaining about running multiples of medium and large lasers on the BJ-1X and BJ-3. Really, they are all energy and the 'Mech is only 45 tons. What the f*ck else are you going to do with it? PPCs, fine, and I do use that on the BJ-3, but the BJ-1X? What, you want me to run around with 8x SPL on a 'Mech that can't twist or turn very well? Small lasers?

Get off your high horses.

[Deathlike]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 July 2016 - 05:21 PM, said:

Get off your high horses.

Well, the "horse" is actually an "arse", and his name... cannot be said.

However, a "Book" was named after him.

Edited by Deathlike, 25 July 2016 - 06:31 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Deathlike, on 25 July 2016 - 06:30 PM, said:

Well, the "horse" is actually an "arse", and his name... cannot be said.

However, a "Book" was named after him.

Well, you know what they say about the cavalry: have you ever seen so many horses with two arses?

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 July 2016 - 05:21 PM, said:

I also wish people would stop complaining about running multiples of medium and large lasers on the BJ-1X and BJ-3. Really, they are all energy and the 'Mech is only 45 tons. What the f*ck else are you going to do with it? PPCs, fine, and I do use that on the BJ-3, but the BJ-1X? What, you want me to run around with 8x SPL on a 'Mech that can't twist or turn very well? Small lasers?

Get off your high horses.

No dude, you're supposed to load it up with dual Heavy Gauss Rifles and a Long Tom Cannon. With 30% of its armor capacity used and a STD135 engine.

[Ted Wayz]

An Innocent Urbie, on 25 July 2016 - 05:40 AM, said:

.... as sturdy as its big brother the jagermech

The Jager is supposed to be the penultimate glass cannon. So all kinds of irony that statement.

[FupDup]

Ted Wayz, on 25 July 2016 - 06:41 PM, said:

The Jager is supposed to be the penultimate glass cannon. So all kinds of irony that statement.

Actually its lore role was more of a glass pea shooter than a cannon.

Its main use was having a low BV for a heavy mech; it was only slightly higher than some lights of the time period.

[GrimRiver]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 July 2016 - 05:06 PM, said:

Without the tonnage to mount significantly threatening sniping weapons? Please.

Even with those crazy AC/2 buffs, you don't exactly see them running amok.

I don't know I seen a good few get 600-800dmg with this build BJ-1 and energy version BJ-1X It's all about how you use them.

Heck, the Dragon mech can't carry as much firepower unless you go XL and it's a heavy.

Edited by GrimRiver, 25 July 2016 - 08:09 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

GrimRiver, on 25 July 2016 - 08:06 PM, said:

I don't know I seen a good few get 600-800dmg with this build BJ-1 and energy version BJ-1X It's all about how you use them.

Heck, the Dragon mech can't carry as much firepower unless you go XL and it's a heavy.

Funny, it would seem that the Blackjack can't carry as much firepower unless you go XL, either. Advantage? I think not.

I've run so many permutations on all of the Blackjacks. For the longest time, I refused to run XL engines on it, too, so believe me when I say I know how to squeeze every last ounce of performance out of the chassis. At long range, it is simply out-gunned because it is out-tonned. Can you do fine in a pub drop? Sure. But organized league drop? Would you rather have a BJ with only three or four under-cooled ERLL or would you rather have a Grasshopper with five and a truckload of heat-sinks providing you cover? We've used the BJ in this situation...back when it had fantastic quirks. No more. The BJ is at its peak at mid-range because that's the natural point where the weapons it can mount have their optimum damage to weight and heat to cooling ratios.

[Satan n stuff]

GrimRiver, on 25 July 2016 - 08:06 PM, said:

I don't know I seen a good few get 600-800dmg with this build BJ-1 and energy version BJ-1X It's all about how you use them.

Heck, the Dragon mech can't carry as much firepower unless you go XL and it's a heavy.

I've done 800 damage matches in nearly every mech own, that doesn't really prove anything.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Wintersdark, on 25 July 2016 - 04:20 PM, said:

The issue is that what it pays in durability it should gain elsewhere. A mech shouldn't be simply bad because it's 45t. Being a slow 45 tonner, it should twist fast and very far - unlike it's brothers it can't get a good twist rate via being fast, so it needs some heavy twist quirks, as well as yaw range AND turn rate.

I would say that is it's weapon position. The ability to use terrain more effectively for cover. That is the gain it receives over other mechs in it's weight range. Heck, it has more ideal weapon positioning than most medium mechs in general.

And it isn't bad.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 26 July 2016 - 02:41 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

GrimRiver, on 25 July 2016 - 04:50 PM, said:

What did you expect it's a 45 ton mech.

The irony is that the Cicada was one of the top performers in that last weekend tournament for the IS, at 5 tons less. It may be at an awkward tonnage, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be able to perform (granted the CDA-2B is more of a PUG mech, but meh).

[GrimRiver]

Yeonne Greene, on 25 July 2016 - 09:26 PM, said:

Funny, it would seem that the Blackjack can't carry as much firepower unless you go XL, either. Advantage? I think not.

I've run so many permutations on all of the Blackjacks. For the longest time, I refused to run XL engines on it, too, so believe me when I say I know how to squeeze every last ounce of performance out of the chassis. At long range, it is simply out-gunned because it is out-tonned. Can you do fine in a pub drop? Sure. But organized league drop? Would you rather have a BJ with only three or four under-cooled ERLL or would you rather have a Grasshopper with five and a truckload of heat-sinks providing you cover? We've used the BJ in this situation...back when it had fantastic quirks. No more. The BJ is at its peak at mid-range because that's the natural point where the weapons it can mount have their optimum damage to weight and heat to cooling ratios.

This BJ-1DC doesn't even need XL but still has more fire power then a non XL Dragon and besides who takes a BJ in anything other then PUG play, I've never seen a BJ in CW other then for trolling.

Satan n stuff, on 26 July 2016 - 12:04 AM, said:

I've done 800 damage matches in nearly every mech own, that doesn't really prove anything.

No it does prove something, the fact it can get that amount of damage proves it can keep up with other mechs higher tier then it.

[Y E O N N E]

GrimRiver, on 26 July 2016 - 09:11 AM, said:

This BJ-1DC doesn't even need XL but still has more fire power then a non XL Dragon and besides who takes a BJ in anything other then PUG play, I've never seen a BJ in CW other then for trolling.

I was referring to competitive play, but since you mention it I do bring Blackjacks to CW. The BJ-3 with some firm of PPC is one of my bread-and-butter machines in that mode.

Also , that Blackjack has some terrible weapon synergy. I can get 30 damage at the range cap of those medium lasers with medium lasers only, or by using larges and mediums. Having only 15 ammo - limited damage for sniping is not sufficiently threatening.

Quote

No it does prove something, the fact it can get that amount of damage proves it can keep up with other mechs higher tier then it.

It doesn't do anything of the sort, it just shows that somebody had a good game. Or are you going to tell me that just because McGral18 cracked 1,000 in a Mist Lynx, it's perfectly fine, too?

[Deathlike]

GrimRiver, on 26 July 2016 - 09:11 AM, said:

No it does prove something, the fact it can get that amount of damage proves it can keep up with other mechs higher tier then it.

In the case of the Mist Lynx... it only proves how derpy the opfor (and to a lesser extent, his teammates) happens to be.

In a team game, an "even" distribution of damage shows relative contributions to the team. When a player in a subpar mech does exceptionally well, it truly means everyone else was more or less terribad (and usually the case in the solo queue, and occasionally happens in the group queue).

Edited by Deathlike, 26 July 2016 - 09:53 AM.

[GrimRiver]

Yeonne Greene, on 26 July 2016 - 09:43 AM, said:

I was referring to competitive play, but since you mention it I do bring Blackjacks to CW. The BJ-3 with some firm of PPC is one of my bread-and-butter machines in that mode.

Also , that Blackjack has some terrible weapon synergy. I can get 30 damage at the range cap of those medium lasers with medium lasers only, or by using larges and mediums. Having only 15 ammo - limited damage for sniping is not sufficiently threatening.



It doesn't do anything of the sort, it just shows that somebody had a good game. Or are you going to tell me that just because McGral18 cracked 1,000 in a Mist Lynx, it's perfectly fine, too?

The BJ-1DC is pretty close to the Grid Iron which is a good medium in it's own right minus the missile hardpoint and the BJ-1DC is faster then the Grid Iron, also the BJ-1DC has much more then 15 gauss rounds, it has 35 rounds. As stated before it's a sniper mech, if you want duel gauss/laser vomit threatening firepower then the jager or any other mech is better for the job.

I'm not sure what you meant by that last bit, I get 500-800dmg all the time in subpar mechs with builds like the BJ-1DC because I play them in their respective roles so I'm not sure what you're asking of the BJ's to do?