108 replies to this topic

[Hotthedd]

Agent1190, on 27 July 2016 - 07:05 AM, said:

I started playing just after open beta when repair/rearm was still a thing. It had some pros - you didn't boat too many ammo weapons because you had to pay for the ammo (ridiculous LRM boats with 1800+ rounds weren't the thing back then), and you only ran XL engines if you were REALLY confident because they were expensive to repair. This was 8 vs. 8 as well, so only 2/3 the number of targets on the field.

But the GRIND. You could launch in trial mechs back then to avoid repair/rearm - and get a quarter of your earnings removed because you weren't using an owned mech. Or, you launched in your own mech and understood that if you died, you were going to lose 20-40% of your income just fixing the damn thing. It took FOREVER to grind out the CBills to purchase a new mech. You complain about the grind now....

Repair and Rearm doesn't work in Quick play, which is just an arena "instant action" type of game. It could work in FW with the right conidtions, but right now, any mechanic that drives players away just can't be introduced.

One way to make it work, and be fair to those who don't want to hassle of dealing with R&R would be to make mercs and freelancers pay R&R, but house units have free R&R.

[Davers]

Rebas Kradd, on 27 July 2016 - 07:00 AM, said:

I am not supporting the BV aspect of OP's suggestion.

I'm just trying to brainstorm on some kind of real economy and logistics for FW.

The game just isn't designed for it. The entire profit of this game is based around the sale of mechs. If people can't afford to upgrade and maintain them, they will stop buying them. The entire economy of this game makes little sense to begin with.

You say you liked the byproducts of R&R, but I only remember bad things from it. I remember people abusing and exploiting it, I remember teams shutting down and hiding every match, I remember players making deals (Ill let you kill me if you promise to just headshot me so my repair bill is low), I remember players being griefed by having all their components taken off, no one pushing or wanting to get their mech hurt.. I saw R&R punish players for spreading damage, suicide farmiing, players constantly running OOB so they would take less damage when they died. Players being pushed into bad builds because they couldn't afford to run good builds..and this was before the Clans who have no customization choices and are forced to use whatever the mech comes with.

Let's talk about the P2W side now. Money converts to actual game power when you can afford to run the best builds all day long, and your opponent can't.

These are the byproducts of R&R that I saw. If you want a game where the best teams get the best toys, and their weaker opponents have to also use weaker mechs, then I guess R&R is perfect for you. But I think you would rather have a game where all the tech and mechs are available to everyone so it is more about knowledge of what to build and the skill of playing it, then players running what they can afford.

[Mystere]

meteorol, on 27 July 2016 - 12:06 AM, said:

Removing the simplistic R&R we used to have ranks amongst the top three best decisions PGI ever made.

FTFY.

But that does not preclude developing a much better implementation as part of Community Wafare.

Hotthedd, on 27 July 2016 - 07:02 AM, said:

Where it would not be fair is in QP, but that mode is only a placeholder anyway.

Amen to that!

Edited by Mystere, 27 July 2016 - 07:54 AM.

[Hotthedd]

Davers, on 27 July 2016 - 07:41 AM, said:

Let's talk about the P2W side now. Money converts to actual game power when you can afford to run the best builds all day long, and your opponent can't.

Repairs and Re-Arming costs are paid in C-bills.
C-bills are available without spending a single dime in the game, ever.
Therefore, it cannot be considered P2W.

[Davers]

Hotthedd, on 27 July 2016 - 07:54 AM, said:

Repairs and Re-Arming costs are paid in C-bills.
C-bills are available without spending a single dime in the game, ever.
Therefore, it cannot be considered P2W.

Lamborghini costs money.
Everyone with a job makes money.
Therefore everyone with a job can buy a Lamborghini.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Mystere, on 27 July 2016 - 07:49 AM, said:

FTFY.

But that does not preclude developing a much better implementation.

The ONLY way R&R can ever be implemented in this game, is if real money could never be used to affect it.

That means some other means of facilitating repairs or rearming that does not use C-Bills, MC, Premium Time, or XP.

You would essentially need a resource that has to be solely earned. It can't be boosted by Premium Time or Hero Mechs, etc... AT ALL.

Basically no matter if you have 300 mechs, or 3 mechs....30,000,000 C-Bills or 3,000 C-Bills...each player can earn the same amount of resource points and are on a level playing field with R&R.

That is the only way I could see this ever working.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Hotthedd, on 27 July 2016 - 07:54 AM, said:

Repairs and Re-Arming costs are paid in C-bills.
C-bills are available without spending a single dime in the game, ever.
Therefore, it cannot be considered P2W.

R&R being used as a balance tool with C-Bills means as long as you buy C-Bill generating items, you will be able to be at a serious advantage over those who don't spend money or can't.

That creates a huge gap in performance between paid players and free players. That is Pay 2 Win.

[Davers]

MeiSooHaityu, on 27 July 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

R&R being used as a balance tool with C-Bills means as long as you buy C-Bill generating items, you will be able to be at a serious advantage over those who don't spend money or can't.

That creates a huge gap in performance between paid players and free players. That is Pay 2 Win.

No point in arguing with him. He is willfully ignorant of the fact that R&R is designed to prevent players from running the best mechs by making them lose money by playing them.

[Albino Boo]

mogs01gt, on 27 July 2016 - 06:41 AM, said:

I'll call BS on that.

If you are assuming the tier1 player doesn't have the ACH basic'd, it will overheat and be easy pickings for an fully mastered and properly loaded TBR. Plus no tier5 player has a fully mastered TBR with proper modules.

Well I just made an alt account dropped in a trial ach got 562 damage 5 kills and 6 KMD against a t5 team. Its almost like having 500 drops in an ACH with 6 small pulse lasers means I can easily manage 6 small laser on the ACH trial mech. Map knowledge, aim and heat management get better with experience.

[Hotthedd]

Davers, on 27 July 2016 - 07:56 AM, said:

Lamborghini costs money.
Everyone with a job makes money.
Therefore everyone with a job can buy a Lamborghini.

Logic fail.
A 2015 Lamborghini Aventador costs $400,000.
Everyone does not have $400K in disposable income, however,
Everyone who does have $400K in disposable income can get a Lamborghini.

Furthermore, If I were to race you in a Lamborghini, and you were driving a Buick, it would cost me a lot more in Repair (maintenance) and Re-arm (fuel) each race, making it more cost effective for me to bring a less expensive Dodge Viper.

MeiSooHaityu, on 27 July 2016 - 08:05 AM, said:

R&R being used as a balance tool with C-Bills means as long as you buy C-Bill generating items, you will be able to be at a serious advantage over those who don't spend money or can't.

That creates a huge gap in performance between paid players and free players. That is Pay 2 Win.

What advantage? Being able to repair and re-arm my 'mech in less time?

There is no performance gap, therefore it cannot be pay to win. At best it is pay to save time.

Davers, on 27 July 2016 - 08:13 AM, said:

No point in arguing with him. He is willfully ignorant of the fact that R&R is designed to prevent players from running the best mechs by making them lose money by playing them.

You would only lose money by doing very badly in an expensive, tricked out 'mech.
(Some players are able to do quite well without having to use the most expensive machines. Those people are called good pilots)

[SuomiWarder]

OP misses the intangible but very real sense of "PVP MMO game fairness". When players feel that those with the most money are mainly farming the other players - they feel that the game is unfair. Yes, someone might have put in 4 hours a day, five days a week to afford a Kodiak - but a casual player with a family and a job that can only devote 4 hours an entire week will not me mollified the difference in effort. The low time player only knows they get stomped by better machines every time they play.

To keep a large customer base you need to sell to the lowest common denominator. People that might play a few hours on the weekend.

[Agent1190]

I wonder how people would feel if their end-match earnings screen showed the consumable cost to refill your arty/air/UAV/coolshot. That 200,000 Cbill match would look a lot worse if they showed the -80,000 to reload your consumables. Right now, you don't see that cost, so you don't realize a bad match that gets you 100,000 Cbills only netted you 20,000 if you used both consumables.

You pay for ammo when you build the mech, maybe just charge to reload your ammo?

Edited by Agent1190, 27 July 2016 - 10:23 AM.

[Davers]

Hotthedd, on 27 July 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

Logic fail.
A 2015 Lamborghini Aventador costs $400,000.
Everyone does not have $400K in disposable income, however,
Everyone who does have $400K in disposable income can get a Lamborghini.

Furthermore, If I were to race you in a Lamborghini, and you were driving a Buick, it would cost me a lot more in Repair (maintenance) and Re-arm (fuel) each race, making it more cost effective for me to bring a less expensive Dodge Viper.


What advantage? Being able to repair and re-arm my 'mech in less time?

There is no performance gap, therefore it cannot be pay to win. At best it is pay to save time.

You would only lose money by doing very badly in an expensive, tricked out 'mech.
(Some players are able to do quite well without having to use the most expensive machines. Those people are called good pilots)

Then what is the point of such a weak R&R? To punish new and bad players? To increase the power gap between new players and veterans even further (while still putting them together in the same match)?
By "expensive tricked out mech" you mean "every single Clan Omnimech"? Not seeing too many cheap options there.

And you made my point about Lamborghinis very nicely. The space rich can buy and maintain them and the space poor can't. Since there is nothing to do in this game BUT buy mechs, surely you see this is a bad idea?

As for mech lockout times, what's the point? How is this a fun mechanic? Especially for new players? The only games that make money off people to continue to play. How is using Candy Crush mechanics creating a better Mechwarrior game?

[MeiSooHaityu]

Hotthedd, on 27 July 2016 - 10:05 AM, said:

What advantage? Being able to repair and re-arm my 'mech in less time?

There is no performance gap, therefore it cannot be pay to win. At best it is pay to save time.

Premium Time boosts income by 50% and C-Bill boosted mechs an additional 30%. There will be scenarios where "Spenders" on the game can fully R&R their mechs and still bank C-Bills regardless of the outcome, where "Free" players will have matches resulting in loses to income causing the shelving of mechs until they can be repaired, or reducing the cost of equipment and weapons installed to keep earnings somewhat consistent and positive.

Spenders run what they want (DHS, XL engines, larger weapons, weapons with ammo, etc...). To match earnings even remotely close, free players run just energy with (SHS and STD engines).

People who spend money can and will run better mechs and better equipment than ones that can't. There is the advantage.

Even if loses (for the sake of "balance") could be severe enough where everyone could lose money with certain equipment, in theory a person who pays money could just go on the site, buy the C-Bills they need, and get rolling again with no issues. The other player who can't spend the money is still stuck.

Point is, your "balance" can be circumvented with a credit card. People that can spend real money either don't suffer loses or can buy themselves out of it. People who play for free suffer far more and are forced to make very hard decisions on what they can pilot and what they can afford to install.

In essence, there is a mechanic that only "balances" play for poor players and paid players can ignore the balance all together. That isn't balance.

[Satan n stuff]

Davers, on 27 July 2016 - 07:56 AM, said:

Lamborghini costs money.
Everyone with a job makes money.
Therefore everyone with a job can buy a Lamborghini.

You can actually, it's just going to be a crappy one that was barely functional in the 80s and has gotten worse since.

[mogs01gt]

Albino Boo, on 27 July 2016 - 09:14 AM, said:

Well I just made an alt account dropped in a trial ach got 562 damage 5 kills and 6 KMD against a t5 team. Its almost like having 500 drops in an ACH with 6 small pulse lasers means I can easily manage 6 small laser on the ACH trial mech. Map knowledge, aim and heat management get better with experience.

LoL, I had FS9 on the brain! I was thinking that mech would have a std and flamers.....

[Davers]

Satan n stuff, on 27 July 2016 - 11:36 AM, said:

You can actually, it's just going to be a crappy one that was barely functional in the 80s and has gotten worse since.

A perfect description of IS stock mechs.

[Hotthedd]

Davers, on 27 July 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

Then what is the point of such a weak R&R? To punish new and bad players? To increase the power gap between new players and veterans even further (while still putting them together in the same match)?
By "expensive tricked out mech" you mean "every single Clan Omnimech"? Not seeing too many cheap options there.

One huge point would be immersion.
What power gap? Again, doing well in a match would be less costly than doing badly. But Artemis-equipped LRMs cost money when you initially bought them, right? It only makes sense that replacing them also costs money.

Davers, on 27 July 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

And you made my point about Lamborghinis very nicely. The space rich can buy and maintain them and the space poor can't. Since there is nothing to do in this game BUT buy mechs, surely you see this is a bad idea?

I think you missed the point.
The space rich can buy and maintain them, but the space poor do not incur those costs.
And since you correctly pointed out that there is no game besides buying 'mechs, who really stays space poor for very long?

Davers, on 27 July 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

As for mech lockout times, what's the point? How is this a fun mechanic? Especially for new players? The only games that make money off people to continue to play. How is using Candy Crush mechanics creating a better Mechwarrior game?

What are you talking about? I never suggested 'mech lockout times.

[Hotthedd]

MeiSooHaityu, on 27 July 2016 - 11:16 AM, said:

Premium Time boosts income by 50% and C-Bill boosted mechs an additional 30%. There will be scenarios where "Spenders" on the game can fully R&R their mechs and still bank C-Bills regardless of the outcome, where "Free" players will have matches resulting in loses to income causing the shelving of mechs until they can be repaired, or reducing the cost of equipment and weapons installed to keep earnings somewhat consistent and positive.

Spenders run what they want (DHS, XL engines, larger weapons, weapons with ammo, etc...). To match earnings even remotely close, free players run just energy with (SHS and STD engines).

People who spend money can and will run better mechs and better equipment than ones that can't. There is the advantage.

Even if loses (for the sake of "balance") could be severe enough where everyone could lose money with certain equipment, in theory a person who pays money could just go on the site, buy the C-Bills they need, and get rolling again with no issues. The other player who can't spend the money is still stuck.

Point is, your "balance" can be circumvented with a credit card. People that can spend real money either don't suffer loses or can buy themselves out of it. People who play for free suffer far more and are forced to make very hard decisions on what they can pilot and what they can afford to install.

In essence, there is a mechanic that only "balances" play for poor players and paid players can ignore the balance all together. That isn't balance.

First of all, none of that gives an in-game advantage.
Secondly, PGI is running a business, and needs a revenue stream. Without it the game will cease to exist.

Not spending money just means a player will need to spend more time. That is all. It is not pay to win.

[MeiSooHaityu]

Hotthedd, on 27 July 2016 - 11:57 AM, said:

First of all, none of that gives an in-game advantage.
Secondly, PGI is running a business, and needs a revenue stream. Without it the game will cease to exist.

Not spending money just means a player will need to spend more time. That is all. It is not pay to win.

I can't explain how wrong you are any clearer. I think you want this so badly you are looking at it with blinders and ignoring the obvious downfalls of this system with a F2P model.

You are right about one thing though. PGI does need revenue to keep going. PGI also needs to do this by appealing to new players. If I was a new player and wanted to try this game out (with the plan of possibly spending money later if I liked it), I would be very put off if I saw established players dominating the battlefield when I couldn't scrape 2 nickels together to reload my ammo. Nothing sends away new players and potential income away faster than a costly and steep economic model that benefits established players that spend money.

R&R if bases on C-Bills is a disaster. Just trust me.