108 replies to this topic

[Davers]

Hotthedd, on 27 July 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

One huge point would be immersion.
What power gap? Again, doing well in a match would be less costly than doing badly. But Artemis-equipped LRMs cost money when you initially bought them, right? It only makes sense that replacing them also costs money.

I think you missed the point.
The space rich can buy and maintain them, but the space poor do not incur those costs.
And since you correctly pointed out that there is no game besides buying 'mechs, who really stays space poor for very long?

What are you talking about? I never suggested 'mech lockout times.

I'm on my phone at work so I can't be bothered to do all the quoting and editing to address you line by line.

What you are suggesting is that new players should be stuck with bad mechs until they somehow become rich themselves. That's not a good way to get players to stick around.

Why are bad mechs bad? Because they do not perform well in a match. Bad performance equals bad payouts. Good mechs perform well in matches. Good performance equals good payouts.

If I race my Lamborghini against your Buick I will win and get the prize money and you get nothing. As long as my prize money is higher than my R&R I will continue to drive my Lamborghini and beat your Buick. Eventually I will have enough money to buy a second Lamborghini and you won't have gas money to race anymore.

Stop hating on New players. Stop hating on bad players. It only hurts the game.

[Hotthedd]

MeiSooHaityu, on 27 July 2016 - 12:10 PM, said:

I can't explain how wrong you are any clearer. I think you want this so badly you are looking at it with blinders and ignoring the obvious downfalls of this system with a F2P model.

What I want is irrelevant to the discussion. R&R in no way = P2W.

MeiSooHaityu, on 27 July 2016 - 12:10 PM, said:

You are right about one thing though. PGI does need revenue to keep going. PGI also needs to do this by appealing to new players. If I was a new player and wanted to try this game out (with the plan of possibly spending money later if I liked it), I would be very put off if I saw established players dominating the battlefield when I couldn't scrape 2 nickels together to reload my ammo. Nothing sends away new players and potential income away faster than a costly and steep economic model that benefits established players that spend money.

R&R if bases on C-Bills is a disaster. Just trust me.

Acquiring C-bills is actually incredibly easy, especially for new players.
But if I were to flip your argument:

Why would an established player continue to play the game if the grind gave him absolutely no advantage over the newer player?

If something costs C-bills to buy or install, it only makes sense that it cost C-bills to fix and replace, no?

Davers, on 27 July 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

I'm on my phone at work so I can't be bothered to do all the quoting and editing to address you line by line.

What you are suggesting is that new players should be stuck with bad mechs until they somehow become rich themselves. That's not a good way to get players to stick around.

Somehow get rich? If you play the game long enough, you cannot avoid getting space rich.

Davers, on 27 July 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

Why are bad mechs bad? Because they do not perform well in a match. Bad performance equals bad payouts. Good mechs perform well in matches. Good performance equals good payouts.

Although some 'mechs are not that good, it is really the pilot that makes the difference. However, with R&R, the "worse" 'mechs do not have to do AS well to still make a profit.

Davers, on 27 July 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

If I race my Lamborghini against your Buick I will win and get the prize money and you get nothing. As long as my prize money is higher than my R&R I will continue to drive my Lamborghini and beat your Buick. Eventually I will have enough money to buy a second Lamborghini and you won't have gas money to race anymore.

MW:O is not an all or nothing payout game. You might have to win, or place in the top 5 to make money in the Lambo, but if I can net as much as you in my Buick for placing 12th, then I will not go broke, either.

Davers, on 27 July 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

Stop hating on New players. Stop hating on bad players. It only hurts the game.

I'm not hating on anybody. As a matter of fact, they get the biggest breaks from R&R. It is the ones with FF, ES, Artemis, and large XL engines that get the worst of it.

[Baulven]

Hotthedd, on 27 July 2016 - 12:41 PM, said:

I'm not hating on anybody. As a matter of fact, they get the biggest breaks from R&R. It is the ones with FF, ES, Artemis, and large XL engines that get the worst of it.

So you just hate the concept of clan mechs then. Good to know you and Russ see eye to eye.

[Hotthedd]

Baulven, on 27 July 2016 - 12:43 PM, said:

So you just hate the concept of clan mechs then. Good to know you and Russ see eye to eye.

wut?

[Davers]

Hotthedd, on 27 July 2016 - 12:41 PM, said:

What I want is irrelevant to the discussion. R&R in no way = P2W.

Acquiring C-bills is actually incredibly easy, especially for new players.
But if I were to flip your argument:

Why would an established player continue to play the game if the grind gave him absolutely no advantage over the newer player?

If something costs C-bills to buy or install, it only makes sense that it cost C-bills to fix and replace, no?


Somehow get rich? If you play the game long enough, you cannot avoid getting space rich.


Although some 'mechs are not that good, it is really the pilot that makes the difference. However, with R&R, the "worse" 'mechs do not have to do AS well to still make a profit.


MW:O is not an all or nothing payout game. You might have to win, or place in the top 5 to make money in the Lambo, but if I can net as much as you in my Buick for placing 12th, then I will not go broke, either.


I'm not hating on anybody. As a matter of fact, they get the biggest breaks from R&R. It is the ones with FF, ES, Artemis, and large XL engines that get the worst of it.

I kinda stopped reading after you said that veteran players should get in game advantages over new players. I thought being a veteran of the game was advantage enough.

We do not see eye to eye on this. As I said earlier, this discussion is going no where. I was here when they had R&R and it was brutally bad for F2P players. Getting rid of it was PGI's best decision. Maybe you were here too and have a different opinion. I dunno. But I prefer my immersion in the game, not on the score screen.

[Davers]

Baulven, on 27 July 2016 - 12:43 PM, said:

So you just hate the concept of clan mechs then. Good to know you and Russ see eye to eye.

Most R&R enthusiasts like to pretend that Clan mechs don't exist, or that only the top players in the game should be allowed to use them.

[Hotthedd]

Davers, on 27 July 2016 - 12:59 PM, said:

I kinda stopped reading after you said that veteran players should get in game advantages over new players. I thought being a veteran of the game was advantage enough.

I never said in-game advantage.

Davers, on 27 July 2016 - 12:59 PM, said:

We do not see eye to eye on this. As I said earlier, this discussion is going no where. I was here when they had R&R and it was brutally bad for F2P players. Getting rid of it was PGI's best decision. Maybe you were here too and have a different opinion. I dunno. But I prefer my immersion in the game, not on the score screen.

Yes I was here. I grinded out games as a free to play player with R&R, no cadet bonuses, no separation in matchmaker, solos and groups in the same queue, the whole shebang.

It wasn't as bad as some people make it out to be.

Davers, on 27 July 2016 - 01:02 PM, said:

Most R&R enthusiasts like to pretend that Clan mechs don't exist, or that only the top players in the game should be allowed to use them.

That's a pretty bold characterization.
Anyway, it does not apply to me, and none of my arguments has even hinted slightly at that stance.

[Brain Cancer]

Repair and Rearm on quickplay doesn't work.

The only way it works is in FW, and it would take an entirely different currency to do so. This should never be on the player, but the faction.

[Baulven]

Hotthedd, on 27 July 2016 - 01:14 PM, said:

That's a pretty bold characterization.
Anyway, it does not apply to me, and none of my arguments has even hinted slightly at that stance.

Every clan omnimech is locked into ES/FF XL THE and everything else you quoted as expensive to maintain and upkeep. That means I can either pay a **** ton of money to keep running clans and never try out new loadouts because the risk vs reward is too high or I can play mechs I have no interest in. Either way not a good way to retain players.

[Hotthedd]

Baulven, on 27 July 2016 - 01:17 PM, said:

Every clan omnimech is locked into ES/FF XL THE and everything else you quoted as expensive to maintain and upkeep. That means I can either pay a **** ton of money to keep running clans and never try out new loadouts because the risk vs reward is too high or I can play mechs I have no interest in. Either way not a good way to retain players.

No, they are not all locked in to those things, and many are locked out.
Either way, the repair and re-arm costs should never exceed the payout.

[Hotthedd]

Brain Cancer, on 27 July 2016 - 01:16 PM, said:

Repair and Rearm on quickplay doesn't work.

The only way it works is in FW, and it would take an entirely different currency to do so. This should never be on the player, but the faction.

Easy compromise:
House units pay no repair and re-arm, but get a set wage as a payout. (Based on rank within the faction)
Mercenaries and freelancers get paid more, but have repair, re-arm, and transport costs.

[Rebas Kradd]

Davers, on 27 July 2016 - 07:41 AM, said:

The game just isn't designed for it. The entire profit of this game is based around the sale of mechs. If people can't afford to upgrade and maintain them, they will stop buying them. The entire economy of this game makes little sense to begin with.

You say you liked the byproducts of R&R, but I only remember bad things from it. I remember people abusing and exploiting it, I remember teams shutting down and hiding every match, I remember players making deals (Ill let you kill me if you promise to just headshot me so my repair bill is low), I remember players being griefed by having all their components taken off, no one pushing or wanting to get their mech hurt.. I saw R&R punish players for spreading damage, suicide farmiing, players constantly running OOB so they would take less damage when they died. Players being pushed into bad builds because they couldn't afford to run good builds..and this was before the Clans who have no customization choices and are forced to use whatever the mech comes with.

Let's talk about the P2W side now. Money converts to actual game power when you can afford to run the best builds all day long, and your opponent can't.

These are the byproducts of R&R that I saw. If you want a game where the best teams get the best toys, and their weaker opponents have to also use weaker mechs, then I guess R&R is perfect for you. But I think you would rather have a game where all the tech and mechs are available to everyone so it is more about knowledge of what to build and the skill of playing it, then players running what they can afford.

If you're telling me that no strategy layer is ever possible in this game, then this game will never be anything more than the team deathmatch it is now.

In that case, I'll be leaving the game behind. Which I'm sure would thrill some people, but I hope they're more focused on improving the game than proving someone wrong.

Davers, on 27 July 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

What you are suggesting is that new players should be stuck with bad mechs until they somehow become rich themselves.

Gamers are not unaccustomed to this, actually. It does not need to be hell if it's done right.

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 27 July 2016 - 06:11 PM.

[Koniving]

NeoCodex, on 26 July 2016 - 03:44 AM, said:

But one can dream, right?

Right.
This was mine for CW.
Currently at 129 likes.
o.o

And includes a number of the things you've mentioned.
Including the less popular suggestion.

[InspectorG]

NeoCodex, on 26 July 2016 - 03:44 AM, said:

But one can dream, right?

Ive posted about this. The cost would be a cooldown timer for T1/T2 mechs. T3 can drop whenever. T4 is farmer mechs to quickly gain loads of Cbills quickly for CW.

[Davers]

Rebas Kradd, on 27 July 2016 - 06:11 PM, said:

If you're telling me that no strategy layer is ever possible in this game, then this game will never be anything more than the team deathmatch it is now.

In that case, I'll be leaving the game behind. Which I'm sure would thrill some people, but I hope they're more focused on improving the game than proving someone wrong.



Gamers are not unaccustomed to this, actually. It does not need to be hell if it's done right.

I had a huge response to this, But of course my phone logged out and it was lost. So, let me sum up.

I wanted a deep strategic game of warfare set in the IS. But that's not what we got. Clan mechs alone mean R&R won't work in MWO. Never mind the esport dream and the Cbill sinks that the game requires to give it "depth".

If it was done right, I wouldn't mind it. But not for the game that PGI gave us.

[Rebas Kradd]

Davers, on 27 July 2016 - 06:39 PM, said:

I had a huge response to this, But of course my phone logged out and it was lost. So, let me sum up.

I wanted a deep strategic game of warfare set in the IS. But that's not what we got. Clan mechs alone mean R&R won't work in MWO. Never mind the esport dream and the Cbill sinks that the game requires to give it "depth".

If it was done right, I wouldn't mind it. But not for the game that PGI gave us.

Darn, I was looking forward to your essay.

If they removed the purchaseable C-Bills, how much more amenable would you become to the idea of such an economy?

[Davers]

Rebas Kradd, on 27 July 2016 - 07:04 PM, said:

Darn, I was looking forward to your essay.

If they removed the purchaseable C-Bills, how much more amenable would you become to the idea of such an economy?

Omnimechs killed the entire concept of traditional R&R. Customized mechs killed R&R- who would purposefully build an inferior mech?

Buying Cbills, Premium Time, and Hero mechs killed R&R. "But wait Davers! WoT has the same thing and they have R&R!" Yes, but they have tiers that give people a 'safe place' to farm currency. And those low tier tanks are fun to play- they are not just a weaker version of better tanks.

The Tier system killed R&R when it failed to keep new and bad players away from veteran players.

Basing PSR and rewards on damage killed R&R.

Everything PGI has done has made traditional R&R a bad fit for MWO.

Founders were sure that CW would be a big grand thing. They thought we would have to garrison mechs on planets, and only those mechs would be available to fight in it's defense. They imagined having to have multiple units sync up dropship travel times to do successful invasions. In many ways, they hoped that CW would be much more of a 'stock mech' mode where you couldn't run your advanced tech all the time. Of course, they weren't thinking of the Clans then either.

This entire game is more Solaris than anything else- highly customized arena fighters paid for by incredibly wealthy sponsors- than anything resembling a war game.

Maybe if there was a game mode with respawns that used a ticket system based on mech cost we could approximate R&R, but I am not interested, or feel any immersion, in receiving a repair bill at the end of the match. Not when I have to buy, level up, and customize 2 more mechs when facing everyone else's fully mastered mechs. It's a grind. It's not fun, and it's horribly frustrating to new players. I know so many people with 100+ mechs and over a billion Cbills just sitting around. Players with a year of unused PT. R&R would mean nothing to them. This isn't some single player campaign where the rewards increase every mission so you can finally afford to run good fun stuff.

Last rambling thought. If I was going to sign off on a R&R system, I would need to know exactly what mechs/builds we are trying to "punish". Then the system would have to make it so that you COULD NOT run those builds/mechs indefinitely. They would give you in game power, but you would not be able to make Cbills with them. Even on a win they would need to be very expensive to run. Otherwise, what would be the point of creating the restrictions in the first place?

[Rebas Kradd]

Davers, on 27 July 2016 - 07:56 PM, said:

Omnimechs killed the entire concept of traditional R&R. Customized mechs killed R&R- who would purposefully build an inferior mech?

Buying Cbills, Premium Time, and Hero mechs killed R&R. "But wait Davers! WoT has the same thing and they have R&R!" Yes, but they have tiers that give people a 'safe place' to farm currency. And those low tier tanks are fun to play- they are not just a weaker version of better tanks.

The Tier system killed R&R when it failed to keep new and bad players away from veteran players.

Basing PSR and rewards on damage killed R&R.

Everything PGI has done has made traditional R&R a bad fit for MWO.

Founders were sure that CW would be a big grand thing. They thought we would have to garrison mechs on planets, and only those mechs would be available to fight in it's defense. They imagined having to have multiple units sync up dropship travel times to do successful invasions. In many ways, they hoped that CW would be much more of a 'stock mech' mode where you couldn't run your advanced tech all the time. Of course, they weren't thinking of the Clans then either.

This entire game is more Solaris than anything else- highly customized arena fighters paid for by incredibly wealthy sponsors- than anything resembling a war game.

Maybe if there was a game mode with respawns that used a ticket system based on mech cost we could approximate R&R, but I am not interested, or feel any immersion, in receiving a repair bill at the end of the match. Not when I have to buy, level up, and customize 2 more mechs when facing everyone else's fully mastered mechs. It's a grind. It's not fun, and it's horribly frustrating to new players. I know so many people with 100+ mechs and over a billion Cbills just sitting around. Players with a year of unused PT. R&R would mean nothing to them. This isn't some single player campaign where the rewards increase every mission so you can finally afford to run good fun stuff.

Last rambling thought. If I was going to sign off on a R&R system, I would need to know exactly what mechs/builds we are trying to "punish". Then the system would have to make it so that you COULD NOT run those builds/mechs indefinitely. They would give you in game power, but you would not be able to make Cbills with them. Even on a win they would need to be very expensive to run. Otherwise, what would be the point of creating the restrictions in the first place?

Just to be clear, I don't think Quick Play is the place for R&R. Faction Warfare is probably the better fit.

So continuing to try and refine this idea (without asking for an essay now )...

Say that players could be successfully matched by tier in Faction Warfare (an order as tall as the Great Wall of China, I know, but for the sake of argument). Does this improve FW at all in your eyes?

Edited by Rebas Kradd, 27 July 2016 - 09:01 PM.

[Davers]

Rebas Kradd, on 27 July 2016 - 09:01 PM, said:

Just to be clear, I don't think Quick Play is the place for R&R. Faction Warfare is probably the better fit.

So continuing to try and refine this idea (without asking for an essay now )...

Say that players could be successfully matched by tier in Faction Warfare (an order as tall as the Great Wall of China, I know, but for the sake of argument). Does this improve FW at all in your eyes?

I think PGI needs to lose the whole "FP is hardcore mode" since it's just basically units stomping pugs while avoiding each other. Some kind of MM is needed. Either just a split between grouped and pug or each tier gets to attack/defend a different planet or whatever.

But FW has just become another mode to grind Cbills and achievements in. Who is writing fake news stories about it now? No lore, no flavor, just another grind with a leaderboard. You can only fight the Battle of Tukyyd once, then it just gets old.

[Rebas Kradd]

Hmm.

And FupDup? What is your suggestion to deepen things, since you keep liking things?