49 replies to this topic

[Leone]

.... I can't even...

@Op, I don't think you understand how this game works.

Let me see if I can explain.

Okay, see, everyone has a fusion engine, XL, standard, whatever. We all got one. And they can only take so much heat before they shutdown. Now, lasers, they're great weapons an all, very pinpoint, easy to aim, but maybe, just maybe, a bit hot for brawling. Even the vaunted 12 er small laser nova cannot keep the lasers firing ad nauseam, where as a dual ac 5 Battlemaster strides proudly forward, ac's a blazing until it or it's opponent falls. Even with some laser backup, cuz it cools faster'n it heats up with just the acs. See, ballistics use less heat, for more damage, with the drawback of ammo. They are, in fact, better for extended brawling.

It doesn't matter how many energy hardpoints you have. At some point, you hit your heat cap. Once there it's the missile and the ballistics that win the brawl, if your going by straight numbers.

Mayhaps you need to rethink your builds?

~Leone

Edited by Leone, 26 July 2016 - 02:21 PM.

[Piney II]

Map voting has nothing to do with making mechs obsolete.

Power creep is the culprit.

[ScrapIron Prime]

SHRedo, on 26 July 2016 - 11:07 AM, said:

With this situation a mech who has lets say
2 balistic mounts and 4 energy mounts
cant keep up with a 7 energy mounts mech.

All it takes is practice, my friend. Try tagging along when I play a Marauder 3R with 2 AC/5, 2 PPC, 2 SPL. Or my Centurion A(C) with AC/10, 2 ML, 3 SRM4. Et cetera.

These builds rely on lower heat weapons and keep firing when the laser vomit builds have to take a break. And the autocannons are often good for longer ranges than their energy weapon counterparts. These things allow them to compete on all kinds of maps, so you're not boned if you drop on the wrong one.

[FupDup]

Chuck Jager, on 26 July 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

Designed poorly. You mean the IS mechs that were based off of lore and were in the game before Clan invasion and quirks.

People love to blame PGI, but a large part of the problem come from choices that were asked for.

More choices == more problems. Less choices == more upset players. This is an issue in every game. We all forget about these issues when we are playing a different game.

Poorly designed mechs are more broad than that.

Some poor mech design choices include:
1. Low mounted hardpoints
2. Bad hitboxes
3. Low engine caps
4. Spread out hardpoints (instead of clustered)
5. Hardpoints in vulnerable areas (e.g. Catapult A1)
6. Omnimechs with unfavorable hardlocked items (e.g. lack of Endo)
7. Low end of its class (e.g. 45 tonners versus 50-55 tonners)

Etc.

[braveheart95]

IMO, the low engine caps on some mechs is just plain silly.....

[Tarl Cabot]

FupDup, on 26 July 2016 - 03:01 PM, said:

Poorly designed mechs are more broad than that.

Some poor mech design choices include:
1. Low mounted hardpoints
2. Bad hitboxes
3. Low engine caps
4. Spread out hardpoints (instead of clustered)
5. Hardpoints in vulnerable areas (e.g. Catapult A1)
6. Omnimechs with unfavorable hardlocked items (e.g. lack of Endo)
7. Low end of its class (e.g. 45 tonners versus 50-55 tonners)

Etc.

Additional items in my view added to the above:

8. Lack of hardpoints
9. Inability to raise arm-mounted weapons from the low-mounted hardpoint item (#1)
10. isXL lacking the durability of the cXL engine, even with greater penalties.
11. Re-working of the weapon technology to be a closer match to the quirks assigned to most mechs.
12. Long range weapons, ERLL/LPL/ERPPC/LL, with too short of a cooldown timers, when said timers should be closer to Gauss Rifle (BT Solaris setup)
13. Current jet jump mechanism fubar.

[FupDup]

Tarl Cabot, on 26 July 2016 - 03:19 PM, said:

Additional items in my view added to the above:
10. isXL lacking the durability of the cXL engine, even with greater penalties.

Clan vs. IS tech isn't a part of the issue here, because even if we made Clan XL explode with 1 ST loss there would still be lots of bad IS mechs. There were lots of bad IS mechs before the Clans were even added.

Tarl Cabot, on 26 July 2016 - 03:19 PM, said:

11. Re-working of the weapon technology to be a closer match to the quirks assigned to most mechs.

I don't really see how that would help specific mechs like, for instance, the Pixie. It could help the IS as a whole, but this discussion is about individual gundams rather than whole factions.

Tarl Cabot, on 26 July 2016 - 03:19 PM, said:

12. Long range weapons, ERLL/LPL/ERPPC/LL, with too short of a cooldown timers, when said timers should be closer to Gauss Rifle (BT Solaris setup)

SRMs, Wubs, and ACs already appropriately out-damage those long-range weapons in close quarters. Nerfing them won't really make any bad mechs suddenly become great.

Why did you list the LPL as long range? The IS one is sort of on the fringe between medium range and short range when not quirked heavily. The IS LL is just medium range.

[Idealsuspect]

Map vote and gamemode vote REALLY suck it's a fact but for be fair it's maybe the number 3981th problem this game have also you can imagine state of the game xD.

[Mole]

So the 'mechs everyone claims are obsolete that I do well in on pretty much any given map are obsolete because of maps? Dat logic.

[Tarl Cabot]

FupDup, on 26 July 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

Clan vs. IS tech isn't a part of the issue here, because even if we made Clan XL explode with 1 ST loss there would still be lots of bad IS mechs. There were lots of bad IS mechs before the Clans were even added.

And way before quirks were introduced. And there always needs to be a first step. Making isXL engines survive loss of 1ST, especially if it is the side with fewer components on it allows them to last a tad longer. Couple that with increase the engine cap on many would open up some other builds. Again, that would be one of the first steps.

Quote

I don't really see how that would help specific mechs like, for instance, the Pixie. It could help the IS as a whole, but this discussion is about individual gundams rather than whole factions.

Falls along the same line as the isXL engines, being able to move and survive a severe loss of equipment while standardizing the weapons distance/cooldown/duration so that if/when quirks are used there is actual actual meaning, the flavor.

Quote

SRMs, Wubs, and ACs already appropriately out-damage those long-range weapons in close quarters. Nerfing them won't really make any bad mechs suddenly become great.

Why did you list the LPL as long range? The IS one is sort of on the fringe between medium range and short range when not quirked heavily. The IS LL is just medium range.

Linked with #11, and general change in a player's reliance on a pure long range build where the weapons have a long cooldown timer, making a hard decision to no bring short-range weapons.

The rescale, even though most thought it would lead to a smaller absolute size for most mechs, took quite awhile for PGI to produce. Seeing them adding 1-3 additional hardpoints or changing locations to under-performing mechs is not really in the picture. Bringing arm-mounted weapons up temporarily would be much nicer... Normalizing the different weapon technology while keeping the flavor/distinction between the two might be the first set of steps to take.

That boat though may never dock though, leaving the only means to move some mediocre mechs up a ladder or two through quirks. Still, it would not make them preferred mechs but simply a flavor for the moment.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 26 July 2016 - 06:38 PM.

[Telemachus -Salt Wife Salt Life-]

PGI should remove map vote, and only allow mode vote. There is NO reason to allow players to vote for the map. I understand why the mode should be voted on.

Edited by Telemachus Rheade, 26 July 2016 - 07:07 PM.

[Kirkland Langue]

The one thing that I'd like to see, with regards to the map vote, is that the maximum vote multiplier should be increased to 99.

Yes, I think that a player should be able to go into a Pug match and say "WE WILL PLAY ON THERMA EVEN IF ONLY I VOTE FOR IT" - after failing to get what they want 50 times in a row.

Other than that, I'd say that map vote is the best thing that's happened to PUG queue since CB. Group Queue is a different animal and I'm uncertain how I feel about map vote there.

[Chuck Jager]

FupDup, on 26 July 2016 - 03:01 PM, said:

Poorly designed mechs are more broad than that.

Some poor mech design choices include:
1. Low mounted hardpoints
2. Bad hitboxes
3. Low engine caps
4. Spread out hardpoints (instead of clustered)
5. Hardpoints in vulnerable areas (e.g. Catapult A1)
6. Omnimechs with unfavorable hardlocked items (e.g. lack of Endo)
7. Low end of its class (e.g. 45 tonners versus 50-55 tonners)

Etc.

Then do not play them and farm the folks who do. It really is that simple. Kill the idiots who make poor choices, at least this an option in this game unlike real life.

I do wish crap mechs and builds did lower folks rating for MM.

[SCHLIMMER BESTIMMER XXX]

Paigan, on 26 July 2016 - 02:15 PM, said:

That is so funny:

The brawlers complain that "only long range $hit is voted" and the long range guys (you, i suppose?) complain that only close range maps are voted.

So which is it, then?

It actually doesn't matter, because both are ridiculously wrong.
Some maps are preferred, yes.
Crimson, HPG, Canyon.
But almost every map except terror therma is played quite frequently.
And every map has short range and long range opportunities. You only have to know how to play the game.

I play a long range build (800-1600m) 90% of the time and I get along on every map.
I get along with close range as well, although not as well as with a pure brawler, of course.

In short:
It's you, the whiners, who suck.
Not the voters.
Not the voting.
You alone.
Grow up.

if you woud have read the complete text i wrote you woud know what i mean.
Looking at your answer i am sure you read 2 sentences max.
No good.... and pretty lame

[SCHLIMMER BESTIMMER XXX]

ScrapIron Prime, on 26 July 2016 - 02:56 PM, said:

All it takes is practice, my friend. Try tagging along when I play a Marauder 3R with 2 AC/5, 2 PPC, 2 SPL. Or my Centurion A(C) with AC/10, 2 ML, 3 SRM4. Et cetera.

These builds rely on lower heat weapons and keep firing when the laser vomit builds have to take a break. And the autocannons are often good for longer ranges than their energy weapon counterparts. These things allow them to compete on all kinds of maps, so you're not boned if you drop on the wrong one.

Yea may be true to some degree, but medium/small laser vomit has way more benefits (no ammo for example and
very light compared to your loadout.What makes them extra fast mostly)
The only dissadvantage is the range.And that is negatet on certain maps > these maps get played 80% of the time.

But i have to say PGI somehow changed the map groupings lately.Since last patch not every vote is canyon or hpg present.
But still not the same as randomized, what woud be more balanced for the various loadouts because randomized
optimal/sub-optimal fighting enviorments for both loadout types.

[DovisKhan]

SHRedo, on 26 July 2016 - 11:07 AM, said:

simple answer: MAP VOTE

thanx to map vote a ever growing group of players is present who focuses
on close range fighting, favorizing OMFG levels of medium/small lasers mounted.
This is possible because maps can be voted
and therefor close quarter battle favorizing maps get picked by named group.
With this situation a mech who has lets say
2 balistic mounts and 4 energy mounts
cant keep up with a 7 energy mounts mech.
Back in the days without map vote there was at least a 50% chance to get a map
that made medium/far range fights likely (disliked as "meh" maps by some guys..
guess why eh?).There a 4E 2B mounts mech coud be very usefull.
But on close range maps it only counts how many medium/small lasers you can
mount, the more the better obviously.This leads to obsolete chassis that
simply cant keep up with the laser vomit.
And PGI rewarding this with map vote.Its unclear to me why they not see this oO?

Absolute BS


2 B and 4 E will beat 7 E in close range no problem, 1 UAC 5 = 4 ML in terms of dps


So with 2 B and 4 E you're actually getting 12 Medium lasers worth of dps without the heat spike


So there's the possibilities:

A) You suck at aiming

You suck at building

C) You suck at positioning

D) You solo yolo without the team

E) You suck at any combination of the above

[Thorn Hallis]

Most 'Mechs are obsolete because PGI failed to make each 'Mech unique.

[Guitar Czar]

Er, yeah, I'm sure it seems that way when you're running long range mechs, the same way it seems like I get polar highlands every time I run a brawler, it's a perception thing. Really it seems like I've just gotten a **** ton of river city lately, anyone else have this experience?

[MrMadguy]

SHRedo, on 26 July 2016 - 11:07 AM, said:

simple answer: MAP VOTE

thanx to map vote a ever growing group of players is present who focuses
on close range fighting, favorizing OMFG levels of medium/small lasers mounted.
This is possible because maps can be voted
and therefor close quarter battle favorizing maps get picked by named group.
With this situation a mech who has lets say
2 balistic mounts and 4 energy mounts
cant keep up with a 7 energy mounts mech.
Back in the days without map vote there was at least a 50% chance to get a map
that made medium/far range fights likely (disliked as "meh" maps by some guys..
guess why eh?).There a 4E 2B mounts mech coud be very usefull.
But on close range maps it only counts how many medium/small lasers you can
mount, the more the better obviously.This leads to obsolete chassis that
simply cant keep up with the laser vomit.
And PGI rewarding this with map vote.Its unclear to me why they not see this oO?

Ahahah, you can't exploit your OP ER-LL-boat Raven/Cicada? Good news for me.

[Bradigus]

I would argue that many of the poor mechs still have the capacity for greatness if built accordingly. The Dragon, considered much maligned, can surprise. The Flame boasts a frightening 4x LPL build and the Fang can pull off the 3x er/ ll gauss or ac10 build rather impressively. Heck, even the banshee La Malinche can surprise you with 1k+ damage dealt.