47 replies to this topic

[TooDumbToQuit]

Where do players fall on this? It seems like a lot of light Mechs go light on armor while assaults go heavy. (duh)

I noticed that a lot of Mechs listed have much lower armor to gain more DPS. In a military naval theme, lights are like WW2 PT Boats and some mediums and even heavys are like "Pocket Battleships". PT boats were built of plywood and were all engines and weapons. They relied on speed. They remind me of the fast lights with little armor who simply cannot be hit.

As I started playing MWO, I started adding armor. My Jenner II's, Kit Foxes etc are all running at about full armor.

Also, any hints on hitting with SRMs?


AND THIS: I do not do LRMs much, but I happened o look at my stats today and I noticed how poor the hit rate was for them. More young players need to look at this.

[Wintersdark]

LikeUntoGod, on 27 July 2016 - 05:39 PM, said:

Where do players fall on this? It seems like a lot of light Mechs go light on armor while assaults go heavy. (duh)

I noticed that a lot of Mechs listed have much lower armor to gain more DPS. In a military naval theme, lights are like WW2 PT Boats and some mediums and even heavys are like "Pocket Battleships". PT boats were built of plywood and were all engines and weapons. They relied on speed. They remind me of the fast lights with little armor who simply cannot be hit.

As I started playing MWO, I started adding armor. My Jenner II's, Kit Foxes etc are all running at about full armor.

Also, any hints on hitting with SRMs?


AND THIS: I do not do LRMs much, but I happened o look at my stats today and I noticed how poor the hit rate was for them. More young players need to look at this.

Don't trim armor.

The ONLY time you should trim armor is to get to an even ton/half ton so you don't leave unspent portions of tons of payload space, or if you've got wholly unnecessary parts (think shield arms).

DEFINITELY never trim armor from lights (exception above re unused arms).

Generally speaking, run max armour. It's VERY rarely worthwhile to trim armor for weaponry as you have to trim a LOT of armor to gain a ton. 32 points of armor weigh a ton. That's non trivial for everyone.

When you buy a new mech, the first thing you should do is max armor, and that should be the last thing you consider lowering.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

Winter nailed it.
If anything the ballancing act tends to fall between engine size and weapons payload

[Koniving]

LikeUntoGod, on 27 July 2016 - 05:39 PM, said:

Where do players fall on this? It seems like a lot of light Mechs go light on armor while assaults go heavy. (duh)

I noticed that a lot of Mechs listed have much lower armor to gain more DPS. In a military naval theme, lights are like WW2 PT Boats and some mediums and even heavys are like "Pocket Battleships". PT boats were built of plywood and were all engines and weapons. They relied on speed. They remind me of the fast lights with little armor who simply cannot be hit.

As I started playing MWO, I started adding armor. My Jenner II's, Kit Foxes etc are all running at about full armor.

Also, any hints on hitting with SRMs?


AND THIS: I do not do LRMs much, but I happened o look at my stats today and I noticed how poor the hit rate was for them. More young players need to look at this.

Everyone runs full armor with their mechs. Few, if any, actually fail at this.
Problem is even with full armor most lights can't take abuse. The Locust for example cannot manage more armor on its side torsos than the cockpit can have (which is 18 armor + 15 structure because PGI), without leaving their rears bare.

The only time people fail at doing this is if they didn't know they could add armor by removing unnecessary equipment / freeing up tonnage. Which is extremely rare.

For hitting things with SRMs, usually it is best to lead ahead of the target if they are running diagonally. Rather than aim "at the air", aim "at the ground" near the same distance as the enemy for the best results. This will also have the added effect of damaging legs which will in turn make them easier to hit.

"Noticed how poor the hit rate was for them." Young players need to look into the hit rate for LRMs, your hit rate for LRMs, or ....what exactly?

My hit rates (Archived) for LRMs are:
28.11% (LRM-5)
29.84% (LRM-10)
29.65% (LRM-15)
and 38.09% (LRM-20)

For LRMs + Artemis:
24.77% (LRM-5+A)
32.94% (LRM-10+A)
31.43% (LRM-15+A)
31.06% (LRM-20+A)

Current stats:
36.93% (LRM-5)
32.19% (LRM-10)
31.85% (LRM-15)
28.73% (LRM-20)

20.58% (LRM-5+A)
34.41% (LRM-10+A)
32.39% (LRM-15+A)
30.80% (LRM-20+A)

Clan LRMs..
31.54% (CLRM-5)
33.24% (CLRM-10)
31.33% (CLRM-15)
31.06% (CLRM-20)
37.33% (CLRM-5+A)
--Undefined (CLRM-10+A)
53.43% (CLRM-15+A)
41.02% (CLRM-20+A)

Huh, evidently I have never used a Clan LRM-10 + Artemis before.... in over 4 years of playing MWO.
I should change that.

Edited by Koniving, 27 July 2016 - 06:32 PM.

[InspectorG]

LikeUntoGod, on 27 July 2016 - 05:39 PM, said:

Where do players fall on this? It seems like a lot of light Mechs go light on armor while assaults go heavy. (duh)

I noticed that a lot of Mechs listed have much lower armor to gain more DPS. In a military naval theme, lights are like WW2 PT Boats and some mediums and even heavys are like "Pocket Battleships". PT boats were built of plywood and were all engines and weapons. They relied on speed. They remind me of the fast lights with little armor who simply cannot be hit.

As I started playing MWO, I started adding armor. My Jenner II's, Kit Foxes etc are all running at about full armor.

Also, any hints on hitting with SRMs?


AND THIS: I do not do LRMs much, but I happened o look at my stats today and I noticed how poor the hit rate was for them. More young players need to look at this.

Depends on the mech/build.

If the loadout is asymmetrical you can shave some armor on the deadside.

SRMs just take time to learn how to lead. Artemis makes the spread tighter and some mechs(mainly clan) have spread reduction quirks.

Dont LRM, they are noobtoobs. A few handful can make them work vs decent competition. Not worth it.

[TooDumbToQuit]

Wintersdark, on 27 July 2016 - 06:26 PM, said:

Don't trim armor. The ONLY time you should trim armor is to get to an even ton/half ton so you don't leave unspent portions of tons of payload space, or if you've got wholly unnecessary parts (think shield arms). DEFINITELY never trim armor from lights (exception above re unused arms). Generally speaking, run max armour. It's VERY rarely worthwhile to trim armor for weaponry as you have to trim a LOT of armor to gain a ton. 32 points of armor weigh a ton. That's non trivial for everyone. When you buy a new mech, the first thing you should do is max armor, and that should be the last thing you consider lowering.

Wow, thanks so much. That is what I'm doing but I look at for instance the ones in the store and they have all cut armor.

And it turned out Pocket Battleships were easy to sink. Not fast enough to run, not strong enough to fight.

[TooDumbToQuit]

Koniving, on 27 July 2016 - 06:32 PM, said:

Everyone runs full armor with their mechs. Few, if any, actually fail at this. Problem is even with full armor most lights can't take abuse. The Locust for example cannot manage more armor on its side torsos than the cockpit can have (which is 18 armor + 15 structure because PGI), without leaving their rears bare. The only time people fail at doing this is if they didn't know they could add armor by removing unnecessary equipment / freeing up tonnage. Which is extremely rare. For hitting things with SRMs, usually it is best to lead ahead of the target if they are running diagonally. Rather than aim "at the air", aim "at the ground" near the same distance as the enemy for the best results. This will also have the added effect of damaging legs which will in turn make them easier to hit. "Noticed how poor the hit rate was for them." Young players need to look into the hit rate for LRMs, your hit rate for LRMs, or ....what exactly? My hit rates (Archived) for LRMs are: 28.11% (LRM-5) 29.84% (LRM-10) 29.65% (LRM-15) and 38.09% (LRM-20) For LRMs + Artemis: 24.77% (LRM-5+A) 32.94% (LRM-10+A) 31.43% (LRM-15+A) 31.06% (LRM-20+A) Current stats: 36.93% (LRM-5) 32.19% (LRM-10) 31.85% (LRM-15) 28.73% (LRM-20) 20.58% (LRM-5+A) 34.41% (LRM-10+A) 32.39% (LRM-15+A) 30.80% (LRM-20+A) Clan LRMs.. 31.54% (CLRM-5) 33.24% (CLRM-10) 31.33% (CLRM-15) 31.06% (CLRM-20) 37.33% (CLRM-5+A) --Undefined (CLRM-10+A) 53.43% (CLRM-15+A) 41.02% (CLRM-20+A) Huh, evidently I have never used a Clan LRM-10 + Artemis before.... in over 4 years of playing MWO. I should change that.

How about this. I personally do not think I should attack or allow myself to be attacked by lights when I only have SRMs. It is simply easier to hit bigger and slower Mechs. (I'm talking about my Jenner II here).

Does Artemis tighten the spread of them?

My LRM stats are all an average of 2 points lower than yours. And I consider them as being low. So 2/3's of most people's missiles are missing.

Oddly, is one game I do not remember, it might have been a Trial Mech. I had an LRM 20 and hit 32 out of 40 for 82%. If I could always do that I'd live as an LRM boat. I do not have any Mechs with LRMissiles so I guess most of mine were Trial Mechs.

I have target decay now so I'm thinking I want to find and try an LRM boat. I'm in the lowest Tier and I've been killed more than a few times today by those ********. When I'm in a Lights Mech without ECM i sometimes get smashed. And yes i dodge, get behind cover etc.

[Koniving]

LikeUntoGod, on 27 July 2016 - 07:06 PM, said:

How about this. I personally do not think I should attack or allow myself to be attacked by lights when I only have SRMs. It is simply easier to hit bigger and slower Mechs. (I'm talking about my Jenner II here).

Does Artemis tighten the spread of them?

My LRM stats are all an average of 2 points lower than yours. And I consider them as being low. So 2/3's of most people's missiles are missing.

Oddly, is one game I do not remember, it might have been a Trial Mech. I had an LRM 20 and hit 32 out of 40 for 82%. If I could always do that I'd live as an LRM boat. I do not have any Mechs with LRMissiles so I guess most of mine were Trial Mechs.

I have target decay now so I'm thinking I want to find and try an LRM boat. I'm in the lowest Tier and I've been killed more than a few times today by those ********. When I'm in a Lights Mech without ECM i sometimes get smashed. And yes i dodge, get behind cover etc.

I lock and hold my LRM buttons down as I, like many, use LRMs for suppression fire rather than actual damage.

Artemis tightens the spread of SRMs.
For a similar effect without the hike in tonnage, use SRM-4s.

[Hunka Junk]

LikeUntoGod, on 27 July 2016 - 07:06 PM, said:

Oddly, is one game I do not remember, it might have been a Trial Mech. I had an LRM 20 and hit 32 out of 40 for 82%.

Where can you get this kind of information? I always see that little bit of data when I die about what was hitting me before I died, and it makes me want to see the whole list of what hit me in the entire match. Likewise, knowing what I hit, with what weapons, and for what damage would be great.

[SirSoggyDog]

At lower level pugs, there's little consequence to shedding leg and arm armor. I usually trim 1/3 or so on most of my 60+ ton mechs, and rarely is it of consequence. My STK has half arm armor and 2/3 of max leg armor, and it's worth the three tons it gives me.

And there's little reason to not strip large amounts of head armor, it's basically a free 1/2 ton. Rarely do you get hit in the head, and having more than 12 damage to it is almost unheard of.

[Wintersdark]

SirSoggyDog, on 27 July 2016 - 07:54 PM, said:

At lower level pugs, there's little consequence to shedding leg and arm armor. I usually trim 1/3 or so on most of my 60+ ton mechs, and rarely is it of consequence. My STK has half arm armor and 2/3 of max leg armor, and it's worth the three tons it gives me.

And there's little reason to not strip large amounts of head armor, it's basically a free 1/2 ton. Rarely do you get hit in the head, and having more than 12 damage to it is almost unheard of.

Head armor in particular is a very bad idea for a couple reasons.

First and formost: Artillery. It won't directly hit your cockpit, but it has splash damage and that can hit your cockpit. It hits for up to 30 damage. A fully armored cockpit will have 18 armor+15 structure - if you trim that to 15 armor, you can be one-shot by an artillery strike.

Second, getting a shot on a cockpit isn't uncommon. Getting multiple shots there can be. A lot of mechs can manage 30pt pinpoint front loaded hits (amoungst other things, think dual gauss) - while worrying about people getting awesome shot deliberately is silly, even at higher levels of play, the reality is there's a decent chance that a quick shot at the CT can end up hitting your cockpit. Having 31+ total HP there prevents that from being a one-shot kill. Note that it's technically possible for a dual gauss hit to a fully armored cockpit to one shot you (due to crit damage 15% carrythrough) that's very, very rare as it relies on lucky RNG *AND* a lucky hit. So, you want to be able to survive getting hit in the face at least once. This is particularly relevant if you're newer and do silly things like overheat *ever*. Then you *definitely* want to be able to eat a shot in the face.

Arm armor is generally safest (unless all your weapons are arm based) and that's why I reference it above - attacking arms is dumb, and the sign of a poor player, 99% of the time. Leg armor in some heavy assaults is ok in low-end pug play, but I'd recommend you don't, because once you climb tiers a bit and face better opposition, you'll find (particularly from lights) leg attacks become more common.

Again: Saving 2 tons on a 100t mech by shaving off 1/3 the armor from each leg isn't really a good buy. That tears the time for a circling light to clip off one of your legs down a hell of a lot. 32 armor is a LOT of armor.

[Void Angel]

LikeUntoGod, on 27 July 2016 - 05:39 PM, said:

Where do players fall on this? It seems like a lot of light Mechs go light on armor while assaults go heavy. (duh)

I noticed that a lot of Mechs listed have much lower armor to gain more DPS. In a military naval theme, lights are like WW2 PT Boats and some mediums and even heavys are like "Pocket Battleships". PT boats were built of plywood and were all engines and weapons. They relied on speed. They remind me of the fast lights with little armor who simply cannot be hit.

As I started playing MWO, I started adding armor. My Jenner II's, Kit Foxes etc are all running at about full armor.

Also, any hints on hitting with SRMs?


AND THIS: I do not do LRMs much, but I happened o look at my stats today and I noticed how poor the hit rate was for them. More young players need to look at this.

Maximize your firepower. Other than paring your armor total down to the nearest ton or half-ton mark, you should strip armor only from arms - and then only within limits. It's ok to strip most of the armor from a totally empty arm, particularly if that arm doesn't often get hit - other than that, armor is more valuable than about anything you can buy otherwise, because having more armor increases the time that you have to use all that other stuff.

That being said, the general rule of armor is that you should iterate both your armor placement and your armor totals. What I mean by that is to pay attention to how your armor is working for you, and make changes as needed. If, for example, you never lose an arm on your Atlas then you can pull a little armor off of those arms for more ammo or something - if you need that (ammo quantity is another thing you should iterate.) See how it works, over the course of multiple matches, and then decide whether to keep the change, revert it, or make a new adjustment.

[Wintersdark]

SirSoggyDog, on 27 July 2016 - 07:54 PM, said:

At lower level pugs, there's little consequence to shedding leg and arm armor

One other tidbit:

While I won't tell anyone to run meta builds, I absolutely highly recommend people play as if their opponents are not terrible, even if they usually (or even always) are. Because as you play, you'll rise in tier, and you'll be matched against better opponents. Sometimes, due to the way the system works, against MUCH better opponents.

Learning to rely on rookie mistakes by your opponents is going to lead you to having a very hard time later.

[Void Angel]

PS: I thought they removed headshots from artillery strikes a few patches back; have you gotten head damage from it recent-like?

[Wintersdark]

Void Angel, on 27 July 2016 - 08:33 PM, said:

PS: I thought they removed headshots from artillery strikes a few patches back; have you gotten head damage from it recent-like?

They removed artillery hitting your cockpit directly. It still splashes, and the splashes can one-shot a cockpit with stripped armor.

If you have maximum cockpit armor, you cannot be killed by an arty strike.

[Void Angel]

LikeUntoGod, on 27 July 2016 - 07:06 PM, said:

How about this. I personally do not think I should attack or allow myself to be attacked by lights when I only have SRMs. It is simply easier to hit bigger and slower Mechs. (I'm talking about my Jenner II here).

Does Artemis tighten the spread of them?

My LRM stats are all an average of 2 points lower than yours. And I consider them as being low. So 2/3's of most people's missiles are missing.

Oddly, is one game I do not remember, it might have been a Trial Mech. I had an LRM 20 and hit 32 out of 40 for 82%. If I could always do that I'd live as an LRM boat. I do not have any Mechs with LRMissiles so I guess most of mine were Trial Mechs.

I have target decay now so I'm thinking I want to find and try an LRM boat. I'm in the lowest Tier and I've been killed more than a few times today by those ********. When I'm in a Lights Mech without ECM i sometimes get smashed. And yes i dodge, get behind cover etc.

Do not listen to the people telling you to ignore LRMs. While they are extremely difficult to use against high-level players, they are an essential weapon system to learn, and are frankly quite useful for farming up c-bills when you start playing the game - you know, when you most need to farm them.

There are interactions between LRMs and other factors. A lot of other factors: AMS, ECM, Radar Deprivation, cover, player tactics at various skill levels, player weapon choices (also varies generally by skill level,) available cover on various maps, and more. These interactions are more complex than any other weapon in the game, which makes balancing LRMs smoothly problematic. As a result, you'll have great success (once you get used to them) at first, then start to underperform as you make your way up. After you (not your opponents) progress past the middle skill levels, LRMs become viable again, though generally less effective than direct-fire options.

For these reasons, it is vital that you learn the ins and outs of LRM use as a new player, to avoid both a learned helplessness in the face of LRM fire, and to prevent an unreasonably high opinion of the weapon's effectiveness. Use them, learn them, and keep using them for as long as you enjoy the play style and get good results. Just be prepared for how the weapon's relative effectiveness will change over time.

[Rogue Jedi]

Quote

Wow, thanks so much. That is what I'm doing but I look at for instance the ones in the store and they have all cut armor.

Most of the Mechs in the store are designs pulled directly from the Battletech tabletop game, with the exception of Champion (C) Mechs few were designed to be good in MWO. The 55 ton Shadow Hawk had varients designed with the same armor as a Locust

[Moldur]

I may trim armor off the head for any weight class.

I do not trim leg armor off lights if possible. I trim little if any off mediums.* I almost always trim leg armor off heavies and assaults, but not more than about 10 points.

On highly asymmetric builds (where there are no weapons in an arm or no weapons on an arm and side torso) I may trim half the armor off the empty arm, or even only leave just a few points of armor on it. It really depends on the build. I have never felt as if that lack of armor on a completely empty side is a detriment. If it has ever made a difference between life and death, it was only for a few seconds while getting eaten alive anyway. In other words, I doubt having more armor on those empty arms would have made a huge difference in the situations where I die in those mechs.









*This is very dependent on their hitbox/geometry. Some mechs, like the Nova require full leg armor because they somehow always get hit in the legs. Hunchbacks and other chassis on the other hand can trim 7-10 points of armor and most likely not notice a difference in leg survivability.

[SnagaDance]

Rogue Jedi, on 27 July 2016 - 09:40 PM, said:

Most of the Mechs in the store are designs pulled directly from the Battletech tabletop game, with the exception of Champion (C) Mechs few were designed to be good in MWO. The 55 ton Shadow Hawk had varients designed with the same armor as a Locust

This. This is the reason for those low armor values on store mechs.

Keep in mind that in the tabletop game you can only design mechs with engine rating that are multiples of their tonnage. So a 100 ton mech might take a 200, 300 or 400 (XL) rated engine but nothing in between. Mechs rarely have different engine rating within a chassis type though as that would require a whole new factory design or the work of some of the best techs in the Inner Sphere (with access to factory like work equipment). You'll probably recognize the huge difference in tonnage used/freed if you only have a few engine sizes to choose from.

Same goes for things like Endo Steel and Ferro Fibrous armor. Pre 3050 (Sucessor War) designs generally didn't have these and they weren't a very handy upgrade. The Endo structure being akin to replacing a person's skeleton. Thoug the FF could be easier to do (it was also easier to produce, hence why you see many IS designs with the worse of the two weight saving options, it's all lore based)

[Megameatloaf]

SnagaDance, on 28 July 2016 - 12:33 AM, said:

...hence why you see many IS designs with the worse of the two weight saving options, it's all lore based

Holy dooly! Everything makes so much more sense now! I was very confused as to why some mechs came with FF instead of Endo installed and thought maybe I was overlooking some sort of benefit. Thanks for that 'tid-bit'

Also, this is a great thread in general. I primarily run Spiders/Cicadas and I'm forever trying to decide between armor/engine/firepower. This has helped me narrow things down a bit. Thanks guys!

Edited by Megameatloaf, 28 July 2016 - 02:03 AM.