137 replies to this topic

[Sader325]

R31Nismoid, on 28 July 2016 - 11:01 AM, said:

Bring MC rewards for participation is easy. That will make the smaller/inactive units, get something.

3MC for a win, 1MC for a loss - as examples.

That is an almost instant fix that will make some return. Granted not all, but some is better than nothing.


Unit sizes are not a problem. As I've said many times look at the top 20, hell, top 30 - it's is not lop-sided to large units. Small units might not be in the top 5, but, why should they? Organisation is success, afterall.

PGI will never give away enough MC that you would feel comfortable about, because then they would be hurting their own business model.

In the months since Phase 3 release, Mercstar has made about $30 worth of MC.

Thats $30 for a unit of 400 people, PGI thought we were going to break up out unit for that pittance. There's absolutely no way you'll make enough MC for it to matter to you.

[Asaru]

Danjo San, on 28 July 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

tried to speak up for small units, solo players and casuals several times. Unfortunatly we are not big enough to get a representational voice. We do not have a players union... All efforts trying to discuss solutions, first and foremost limiting unit size to create incentive for smaller units and casuals, usually was dismissed as "my agenda is only to hurt large units, because my team suqqs" or other condescending stuff...
So yeah I get the effort, they are trying to achieve with this round table.
But I seriously hope they take solos, casuals and small units into consideration tonight. I highly doubt it though.

A lot of points I can agree with. You have to keep the unrepresented and unorganized poplation in mind though.
The Players that feel unrepresented, that are not a part of the "large" or "important" Units/groups, will do what they have been doing for the past three phases if they feel no incentive of playing.
The form of protest they choose is to boycott the system! They feel they have no voice, they have no say so they just stay away.
The solution to filling the queues therefore is not only to answer the question "What is holding back some of the players from units that lack interest inCW?" The Question should be:
"How do we create a system that caters to the needs of competitive players, solo players, casual players and small units alike?"

The main issue here Danjo San is that PGI farmed out the organizing of the community part of this event to MS. So it should be no surprise that the group reflects their views and priorities for FW. If the community thought before this that MS and the comp teams had special access to PGI then tonight's event will most likely reinforce that opinion. If the mix of people talking to PGI turn out to be 90% or more mercs then PGI was blind and tone deaf to appearances.

This doesn't mean MS or their members don't have a legitimate right to express there views and opinions but it should be balanced. While they are a large unit they are still just one unit and should only have one rep at the meeting. Then you have Sader who I don't personally know at all and could be a great guy with awesome ideas for improving FW. But he has a long running issue with Paul so why is someone the devs have had problems with speaking for the community? If the point is to try and convince PGI that the community has some good suggestions why would you chose someone they may be preconceived even on a subconscious level to dislike or dismiss as our rep? It just makes no sense to me. If there are only going to be 10 or so spots why should any one unit get multiple seats at the table? Wouldn't it be better to have as many different units as possible?

I don't want to pick on MS here I also think having ACES sitting in on this first meeting given there connection to NGNG also gives the appearance of favoritism. Now I have no beef with ACES and again they are an active unit in the community and have every right to participate but come on it just looks bad. Plus they're also another merc unit getting a seat at the table. So that brings us to 2 out of 10 spots. Then we have Kcom(merc), SJR (merc), CI (merc) and practically another arm of MS in game, Isengrim a good unit but another merc, then last HHoD the only non-merc unit invited to this thing. Heck even their solo pick is a member of a comp merc team. Was this really the best we could do?

If like me you were hopping PGI would put together a broad divers pool of community members to talk to then you may be disappointed tonight. If your a small unit, a solo, or even a loyalist then you may feel a little under represented and you would be right. Anyone who knows me knows what a white knight I've been for this game and I have been pushing for this kind of community interaction with PGI but the poor way this was organized really disappoints me.

Edit: After much soul searching Isengrim has wisely chosen the loyalist path. I amend my count too two loyalist units now in the round table. Happy to be proven wrong.

Edited by Asaru, 28 July 2016 - 02:34 PM.

[C E Dwyer]

one thing has been clearly demonstrated, and that is you cannot split solo and group queue's, P.G.I tried it, people complained about it and they changed it within a week.

biggest bug bear is Long Tom, casuals simply won't play if its in the game at the strength it is, even if reduced to a large area arty strike, as per my idea, on the official thread, I doubt it would encourage the casuals back, without events

[Rexxxxxxxxx]

There are is one important issue in CW which can be fixed rather quickly:

1) Queue wait times

Fix = Consolidate factions and simplify to the point of another quick play mode or a constant Tukayyid event.
Tukayyid is a perfect example of this. Always having a match with short/or at least consistent wait times. The decision to defend/attack/clan/IS should be random.

The real problem is, we are requesting features which actually increases wait times. We need to focus and ask ourselves whether capturing specific planets, voting on attack lanes, etc is really worth the 10 to 15 minute wait times? Wait times are so long that no one cares about attack lanes, strategy or capturing a planet. We jump on what ever planet has a team waiting on the other side for a match. Perhaps the system can award planets to a team based on how many wins they have, but targeting specific planets should be eliminated.

Scouting and Long Tom has also caused longer wait times. It splits the queue even further between scouting and invasion, and The moment Long Tom becomes active on a planet, all matches on that planet stop. No one wants to play with Long Tom enabled.

These are my thoughts,
-Rexxxxxxxxx

Edited by Rexxxxxxxxx, 28 July 2016 - 11:48 AM.

[Danjo San]

Asaru, on 28 July 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

The main issue here Danjo Sain is that PGI farmed out the organizing of the community part of this event to MS. So it should be no surprise that the group reflects their views and priorities for FW. If the community thought before this that MS and the comp teams had special access to PGI then tonight's event will most likely reinforce that opinion. If the mix of people talking to PGI turn out to be 90% or more mercs then PGI was blind and tone deaf to appearances.

This doesn't mean MS or their members don't have a legitimate right to express there views and opinions but it should be balanced. While they are a large unit they are still just one unit and should only have one rep at the meeting. Then you have Sader who I don't personally know at all and could be a great guy with awesome ideas for improving FW. But he has a long running issue with Paul so why is someone the devs have had problems with speaking for the community? If the point is to try and convince PGI that the community has some good suggestions why would you chose someone they may be preconceived even on a subconscious level to dislike or dismiss as our rep? It just makes no sense to me. If there are only going to be 10 or so spots why should any one unit get multiple seats at the table? Wouldn't it be better to have as many different units as possible?

I don't want to pick on MS here I also think having ACES sitting in on this first meeting given there connection to NGNG also gives the appearance of favoritism. Now I have no beef with ACES and again they are an active unit in the community and have every right to participate but come on it just looks bad. Plus they're also another merc unit getting a seat at the table. So that brings us to 2 out of 10 spots. Then we have Kcom(merc), SJR (merc), CI (merc) and practically another arm of MS in game, Isengrim a good unit but another merc, then last HHoD the only non-merc unit invited to this thing. Heck even their solo pick is a member of a comp merc team. Was this really the best we could do?

If like me you were hopping PGI would put together a broad divers pool of community members to talk to then you may be disappointed tonight. If your a small unit, a solo, or even a loyalist then you may feel a little under represented and you would be right. Anyone who knows me knows what a white knight I've been for this game and I have been pushing for this kind of community interaction with PGI but the poor way this was organized really disappoints me.

yup... I feel like I want to say the casual small player groups are a minority, compared to the lobbyist groups that will get the chance to talk. The truth more likely is that what is percieved as the "minority" actually represents the majority of the playerbase.
What we have now is no control over merc groups, and they will choose to keep it that way. If there is no system to balance them, Clusters will be created again and again. Clusters create imbalance. Imbalance creates frustration. Frustration makes players give up on CW.
If Balance can't be achieved by motivators, then it needs to be enforced.

Cathy, on 28 July 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

one thing has been clearly demonstrated, and that is you cannot split solo and group queue's, P.G.I tried it, people complained about it and they changed it within a week.

biggest bug bear is Long Tom, casuals simply won't play if its in the game at the strength it is, even if reduced to a large area arty strike, as per my idea, on the official thread, I doubt it would encourage the casuals back, without events

The split queue was the worst idea ever. Long Tom comes in second!

[Sader325]

Asaru, on 28 July 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

The main issue here Danjo San is that PGI farmed out the organizing of the community part of this event to MS. So it should be no surprise that the group reflects their views and priorities for FW. If the community thought before this that MS and the comp teams had special access to PGI then tonight's event will most likely reinforce that opinion. If the mix of people talking to PGI turn out to be 90% or more mercs then PGI was blind and tone deaf to appearances.

This doesn't mean MS or their members don't have a legitimate right to express there views and opinions but it should be balanced. While they are a large unit they are still just one unit and should only have one rep at the meeting. Then you have Sader who I don't personally know at all and could be a great guy with awesome ideas for improving FW. But he has a long running issue with Paul so why is someone the devs have had problems with speaking for the community? If the point is to try and convince PGI that the community has some good suggestions why would you chose someone they may be preconceived even on a subconscious level to dislike or dismiss as our rep? It just makes no sense to me. If there are only going to be 10 or so spots why should any one unit get multiple seats at the table? Wouldn't it be better to have as many different units as possible?

I don't want to pick on MS here I also think having ACES sitting in on this first meeting given there connection to NGNG also gives the appearance of favoritism. Now I have no beef with ACES and again they are an active unit in the community and have every right to participate but come on it just looks bad. Plus they're also another merc unit getting a seat at the table. So that brings us to 2 out of 10 spots. Then we have Kcom(merc), SJR (merc), CI (merc) and practically another arm of MS in game, Isengrim a good unit but another merc, then last HHoD the only non-merc unit invited to this thing. Heck even their solo pick is a member of a comp merc team. Was this really the best we could do?

If like me you were hopping PGI would put together a broad divers pool of community members to talk to then you may be disappointed tonight. If your a small unit, a solo, or even a loyalist then you may feel a little under represented and you would be right. Anyone who knows me knows what a white knight I've been for this game and I have been pushing for this kind of community interaction with PGI but the poor way this was organized really disappoints me.

You want to know why I ended up in such a prominent role in this?

Because I took the initiative and put myself there. Whatever my criticisms of PGI and their staff maybe for w/e their behavior is takes a back seat to fixing the game. Fixing the game is absolutely the only thing I care about.

So for the last week I tried my damnedest to insert myself into this mess and played a key role in getting it organized for the betterment of the game.

Do you want to know the simple, hard truth for why Mercstar ended up organizing these precedings? It's because we stepped up. We contacted Bombadil, we made the effort, we took the reigns to HELP him to make this Round Table on thursday as constructive as possible. So, before you make insinuations about favoritism or other nonsense, ask yourself this: What did you do to help?

[B L O O D W I T C H]

My take:

Allies share attack lanes.
For example if Liao is allied with steiner, liao should be able to from up mixed attack team with steiner.


Over and underpolulation penalties (+/- % cills also come with +/- dropdeck weight buffs/debuffs and also +/- % Loyality earnings)
example would be (fade falcon is at -40% c-bills, dropdeck is recuded to 144 tons)
Liao is at -20% c-bills, dropdeck gets buffed to 288 tons.
This is an example, it could also be +/- X% c-bills = +/- X dropweight.

This should immediately help to sort out population issues and merc zerging.

Mercs should be hired to help factions in need, they should not decide where they want to help out without severe penalties when they decide to shift towards an imbalance.

Loyality penality must immediately go. A c-bills penaltiy is more then enough.

-------------

Make loyality a currency and implement a shop for faction related items (decals, mechs, unique faction related camos and mechs) this will, without a doubt fill the queues.

[Asaru]

Sader325, on 28 July 2016 - 12:17 PM, said:

You want to know why I ended up in such a prominent role in this?

Because I took the initiative and put myself there. Whatever my criticisms of PGI and their staff maybe for w/e their behavior is takes a back seat to fixing the game. Fixing the game is absolutely the only thing I care about.

So for the last week I tried my damnedest to insert myself into this mess and played a key role in getting it organized for the betterment of the game.

Do you want to know the simple, hard truth for why Mercstar ended up organizing these precedings? It's because we stepped up. We contacted Bombadil, we made the effort, we took the reigns to HELP him to make this Round Table on thursday as constructive as possible. So, before you make insinuations about favoritism or other nonsense, ask yourself this: What did you do to help?

First I absolutely do not believe or support the idea that MS or any other units comp or otherwise have some special backdoor channel to PGI. But I did state that it is a popular conspiracy theory among many in the larger community. And that PGI should have done a better job not feeding into that false perception. If this round table is to be viewed as representing the whole communities views then who attends to speak for the community needs to be given careful thought and consideration especially this first one.

Good on you for reaching out and trying to get PGI interested in doing this. I have also sent my thoughts to both Russ and NGNG many times so I guess I'm doing the my part too.

Edited: to fix spelling error...or was it? Thanks Daidachi, I think.

Edited by Asaru, 28 July 2016 - 01:52 PM.

[MischiefSC]

AnTi90d, on 28 July 2016 - 03:19 AM, said:

I was there for the whole three hours.

Several people had something to say in chat. No one cared.

No one in the meeting represented solo loyalists. No one in the meeting represented freelancers. None of those people were asked to join.

• SoaqMWO : if you are a unit leader or a unit rep and want to have your voice heard. come to the MS TS now and join in.
  
• SoaqMWO : !ts
  
• sadpandas.failnoob.com:8344 - MercStar TS - Come Join

..and today's meeting will be the exact same way. Units get a voice, everyone else gets crapped on and ignored.

I was in TS. Took a couple hours of work in the middle of my day to be there. Anyone could go in to TS. Anyone could speak. You rant to be heard you need to put forward the effort.

Also nobody can speak for soloists - by definition it's a solo experience. All of us pug though in FW, we all know how that plays. Like most things in life if you want heard you need to make the effort to be in a position to speak. That nobody from the "dedicated soloist" community even came in to TS and spoke doesn't mean everyone else is obligated to, what, pick one at random, drag him in, put him under a spotlight and make him talk?

Admittedly 75% of my drops are pugging. Does that make me a semi-solo?

There's only 1 loyalist in the group, otherwise it's all mercs. Most are not comp players. It's not an ideal population representation but it does comprise the people willing to come forward and speak who have a long, vested interest in FW.

[MischiefSC]

AnTi90d, on 28 July 2016 - 05:20 AM, said:

Bidding for mercs would take Cbills out of loyalist hands and transfer the funds directly to mercs.

..and, really, what good is it to get mercs to come to your faction?.. They usually only drop in 12 man units. They don't help out loyalists who are just trying to get into a match.. rather, they come and talk crap about the loyalists in our faction chat and then take drops that we're trying to queue up for.

I'm only in favor of that system if loyalists are making way more than mercs. Like loyalists get a 400k bonus per win, mercs get 100k. Mercs get to move around - that's their perk. If you want that more than profits, great.

Then taking worlds should provide a bonus for loyalists. Objectives, like taking a particular world gives loyalists a 20% bonus for a week. So at that point paying for mercs is worthwhile.

[Freeman 52]

Cathy, on 28 July 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

one thing has been clearly demonstrated, and that is you cannot split solo and group queue's, P.G.I tried it, people complained about it and they changed it within a week.

Just a different interpretation, Cathy, YMMV: I was a solo player looking forward to Phase 3 at the time and the few days that I got to play in the solo queue I had excellent matches, mostly in scouting but also in invasion. Then the mode was taken away from us within a week, even before the new event could draw people into FP (I even opened a twitter account just to ask PGI to please keep the split). Add to that the fact that it was not really a solo queue but a "tag-less solo" queue and it begins to look like it was designed to fail. As far as I am concerned the experiment did not fail: it did not even start! If they had left the solo queue open during the ensuing event and open to unit players dropping solo we may have encountered a completely different outcome.

Whether the solo/group split is good for FP at this stage is a different conversation - I would much rather have a more engaging and diversified gameplay that created roles and rewards for freelancers, loyalists and mercs. But I did not see any real effort to attract solo players during that brief test.

[Khalcruth]

MischiefSC, on 28 July 2016 - 12:59 PM, said:

It's not an ideal population representation but it does comprise the people willing to come forward and speak who have a long, vested interest in FW.

No, it most certainly does not. I'm certain there are at least 10 times that number of people both willing and able to do the job, had anyone bothered to ask. At all.

Given the completely closed door behind the scenes process, I can't possibly imagine how anyone can consider any part of this round table legitimate.

[MischiefSC]

If you collapse attack/defend we might be able to do a solo/unit split again. Main problem was solos wouldn't queue up for attack so no matches started. If there's just one queue per world that simplifies that and maybe the timid puggles will queue up?

End of the day though I suspect the FW events with a QP style mechanic and no real impact will work best for drawing people in. Those who are up for it will stay.

[Daidachi]

Asaru, on 28 July 2016 - 12:47 PM, said:

But I did state that it is a popular conspiracy theory among many in the lager community.

That bold part just made me laugh at work, which is a sign that either it's too early in the morning to read these forums, or that the image of MS discussing beer over teamspeak for hours on end is hilarious.

Either way, thank you for the chuckle.

Edited by Daidachi, 28 July 2016 - 01:45 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Khalcruth, on 28 July 2016 - 01:42 PM, said:

No, it most certainly does not. I'm certain there are at least 10 times that number of people both willing and able to do the job, had anyone bothered to ask. At all.

Given the completely closed door behind the scenes process, I can't possibly imagine how anyone can consider any part of this round table legitimate.

So why didn't they come talk?

Anyone could have shown up and talked. Plenty did. Where are they? There was no closed door here. You showed up in TS, joined, spoke. I did. Again, I'm not on the roundtable to speak to Russ et al however I got to give my input on the process and it was weighted in with everyone elses.

Just had to show up. Why didn't these other people?

[Agent1190]

MischiefSC, on 28 July 2016 - 01:07 PM, said:

I'm only in favor of that system if loyalists are making way more than mercs. Like loyalists get a 400k bonus per win, mercs get 100k. Mercs get to move around - that's their perk. If you want that more than profits, great.

Actually, I like this idea. Loyalists should get a huge bonus for attacking in their lanes or defending their worlds. Mercs do have an opportunity to move around and take advantage of faction populations to maximize their earnings, or they all go Steiner/JF and live with reduced earnings. They have that choice.

[Khalcruth]

Um...because it's the roundtable this evening, and the people actually sitting at that roundtable, that actually matters?

Assuming this Sader325 guy is to be believed, the process that picked those people is completely illegitimate. Therefore the roundtable itself is completely illegitimate. It does not and cannot speak for the community.

[Stormbringer13]

as far as the Logistics go. You mentioned if FRR could cut off the JF push, those worlds cut off would eventually revert back to prior ownership if the supply line isn't re-established.

What would happen to the dozens of those Steiner worlds currently cut off by the JF push? I honestly want FRR to attack Steiner just to clean that mess up.

[Agent1190]

AnTi90d, on 28 July 2016 - 05:06 AM, said:

However, by not inviting so much as a single solo loyalist or freelancer.. you, in effect, did exactly what people often curse PGI for doing: making decisions for the community without inviting input from anyone outside of your private circle. The 120+ people in chat (of whom maybe fifteen attempted to participate) were totally ignored.

A large number of the ideas battered about only benefit units and factions with high populations.

I'm not i this round table, and didn't attend the planning session, so I am OK with this.

I've always maintained that Faction Play is end game content and should be played by groups and only groups. Find a unit, or create your own and hook up with another unit to drop as a TEAM. If you only drop solo you are missing a HUGE part of FW. Faction play isn't Golf or Tennis, it's Football (American or otherwise).

Edited by Agent1190, 28 July 2016 - 02:01 PM.

[Asaru]

MischiefSC, on 28 July 2016 - 01:46 PM, said:

So why didn't they come talk?

Anyone could have shown up and talked. Plenty did. Where are they? There was no closed door here. You showed up in TS, joined, spoke. I did. Again, I'm not on the roundtable to speak to Russ et al however I got to give my input on the process and it was weighted in with everyone elses.

Just had to show up. Why didn't these other people?

Come on Mischief be a little understanding of his point of view. This was put together short noticed and was not well advertised. Any player that is not plugged into community politics might have no idea this was happening or how the people talking to PGI tonight got picked.

Just because they didn't make it to MS's TS3 doesn't mean they don't care or want to be involved. This idea that there this elite group of MWO players that have a better understanding of the game or how to make it better is just wrong. That kind of attitude along with the opaque way this was put together is going to lead to the masses feeling left out and disenfranchised by the process.