53 replies to this topic

[Escef]

Brain Cancer, on 28 July 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:

You can, if you want to go that extra step, swap from quad MPL to dual LL. Gives you a decent medium range energy load that you can actually use at the ranges you want to engage in anyway- plus it does at least reach out a bit past that for reduced damage. I would use this myself.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...4fb00f89ecf78a9

That's definitely an option. I've had a surprising amount of success with my Catapult C1 with 2xLL, 2xML, 2xLRM10 (4 tons ammo), 2xjets, +6 double sinks, 300XL. I could easily see that Archer build playing very similarly (LRMs and LLs for as long as you can manage, when the missiles run out or the crap hits the fan you can still capably engage at close range).

Edited by Escef, 28 July 2016 - 02:43 PM.

[Drunken Skull]

I think that people need to experiment and re-asses the use of CASE. The Cellular part is real. These weren't rare occasions where I was near empty, usually it is a cheetah/scat/pirates bane poking a hole in rear torso armour when a single shot has yet to be fired (I tend to bump into enemy lights a lot when I'm poking about under the veil of ECM). Many times even only the single ton of ammo was lost.

Some interesting ideas with the LLSR, I opted to use MPLSR to fend off squirrels, as the burn time on target is significantly less I find them more suitable for the task.

@Escef, that's very similar to the builds I used to run. I miss the good ol days in MW4 when you could use mixed tech. I used to run a catapult with 9.5 tons of armour, max clan xl engine, 4 clrm20 1cerLLSr and 8 tonnes ammo. That thing used to wreck stuff on another level...

Edited by Drunken Skull, 28 July 2016 - 12:38 PM.

[Siegegun]

OP- The case does nothing for xl engines, the command console in its current form is not worth the 3 tons, the BAP plus ECM is redundant. I think with BAP you can still detect shut down mechs, but everything else it does is overridden by the ECM. You save 5.5 tons by removing the extra stuff that does not do you any good..

[Brain Cancer]

Beagle also acts as a sensor range extender, so he gets to dorito targets at 25% further range (past 1000m) and it also punches through ECM at slightly longer ranges as well.

And Drunken? Ammo can be destroyed without an ammo explosion. It's only a 10% chance of even a virgin ton of ammo brewing up, but CASE does nothing to reduce or prevent that damage. With no repair and rearm, it's useless in ISXL builds.

[Burke IV]

I have never used case on anything ever. By the time it comes down to ammo explosions 90% the time its all over anyway. You can be vulnerable to random luckshot but placement can help with that somewhat. Its a "cant have everything" situation, if you feel the riskis worth it you get a half a ton or two more free space.

[Drunken Skull]

Again, I've done several tests with and without CASE, without means dying every time a torso is breached. With means surviving till last man standing in most matches... regardless of stripped torso armour.

Using this build has raised my tier from 5 to 3 in less than a month, and I have a 1.27 kdr for the chassis, so it surely must be doing something right?

It may be just in my head, but I think it's pretty bad-a##, and the numbers would tend to agree with me. /smug mode engaged

Edited by Drunken Skull, 28 July 2016 - 01:02 PM.

[Siegegun]

Except your wrong, case prevents damage from moving to the next component. If you have an XL engine your engine blows out with the case section and obviously destroys your mech. Thus case is useless with XL engines. Fine for a standard engine if you want the extra protection. This is how it works. It does not matter how much testing you have done. AKA It IS in your head.

You are wasting 5.5 tons of space. If you wish to do that no worries here... But do not think it could not be more efficient. You are playing gimped, just because playing gimped so far in low tiers has worked for you, does not mean your build is bad ***. Not trying to down on you at all by the way, I am glad you are having fun and glad your stoked to move up tiers in your build. But in actuality everyone that DOES use those extra 5.5 tons WILL be a better build.

[Burke IV]

Whatever works for you op, its all good, but pay attention to facts. They can be hard to come by in this game. There is a wiki of somesort but the link escapes me right now, its full of useful information and as far as i know its up to date. I dont own a tempest or any archers, the cockpit placement puts me off and i dont know why they put it there. Whatever weak lore excuses, i wouldnt want to drive that and tbh there as many exaples of teh top cockpit as the lower one and the top one would actually be good in game. Seems to me the archers biggest issue is that 70t is a huge amount to pay for a mech based around 2 lrm 15s. At 70t it sits in a bad place, too big, too slow and a bit under gunned. Having said that if i did own a tempest i would probably start out from these sorts of builds.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...e1cfae3ddf266d4

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...f4f63d29e31128e

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2c7642068b67485

[Brain Cancer]

Ammo explosions don't happen because your armor is breached. To have it happen it's:

1) You take internal damage. There is a chance this can crit.
2) You take enough critical damage to a single ammo location to destroy it. Most weapons tend to scatter what crit damage they get, meaning generally it's only ones that deal a single big bite (PPCs, IS AC/5 or 10+s, Gauss) that are likely to destroy something before you lose the location.
3) If 1) and 2) are true, you have a 10% chance of ammo explosion. Otherwise, ammo is only "destroyed" and no further effect.
4) CASE only triggers on ammo explosions, and only restricts damage to that location. Tested repeatedly with a standard engine. It doesn't reduce damage otherwise in the slightest, and unless there's so little ammo left in the critted exploded slot to minimize damage, you will be a kill in a Tempest.

Also, ECM helps. A lot. Especially in lower tiers because people tend to ignore you in favor of sensor-visible targets.

I maybe see an ammo explosion once in twenty games, if that.

Edited by Brain Cancer, 28 July 2016 - 01:27 PM.

[TercieI]

Brain Cancer, on 28 July 2016 - 01:26 PM, said:

Ammo explosions don't happen because your armor is breached. To have it happen it's:

1) You take internal damage. There is a chance this can crit.
2) You take enough critical damage to a single ammo location to destroy it. Most weapons tend to scatter what crit damage they get, meaning generally it's only ones that deal a single big bite (PPCs, IS AC/5 or 10+s, Gauss) that are likely to destroy something before you lose the location.
3) If 1) and 2) are true, you have a 10% chance of ammo explosion. Otherwise, ammo is only "destroyed" and no further effect.
4) CASE only triggers on ammo explosions, and only restricts damage to that location. Tested repeatedly with a standard engine. It doesn't reduce damage otherwise in the slightest, and unless there's so little ammo left in the critted exploded slot to minimize damage, you will be a kill in a Tempest.

Also, ECM helps. A lot. Especially in lower tiers because people tend to ignore you in favor of sensor-visible targets.

I maybe see an ammo explosion once in twenty games, if that.

All of this. Ammo explosions (unlike gauss explosions) are very rare. To the point that I actually use ammo to crit pad other components in some builds.

[SilentWolff]

Siegegun, on 28 July 2016 - 01:13 PM, said:

Except your wrong, case prevents damage from moving to the next component. If you have an XL engine your engine blows out with the case section and obviously destroys your mech. Thus case is useless with XL engines. Fine for a standard engine if you want the extra protection. This is how it works. It does not matter how much testing you have done. AKA It IS in your head.

You are wasting 5.5 tons of space. If you wish to do that no worries here... But do not think it could not be more efficient. You are playing gimped, just because playing gimped so far in low tiers has worked for you, does not mean your build is bad ***. Not trying to down on you at all by the way, I am glad you are having fun and glad your stoked to move up tiers in your build. But in actuality everyone that DOES use those extra 5.5 tons WILL be a better build.

This

[Drunken Skull]

Thankyou everyone for their valuable input, it is all greatly appreciated. I stand by my build and my claims of what it can do 100% however. The introduction of the Tier system may have ranked me at 5 to begin with for some ungodly known reason but that does not mean I am a rookie, I'm far from it.

Having been designing and fielding my own mech builds and playing campaigns well before Battletech was ever on a computer, I am well aware of the "rules". I am also keenly aware of all the "rules" PGI have decided to bend, break, and otherwise misinterpret, and I do believe there is a case with c.a.s.e, seriously you are all so sure but when is the last time any of you actually checked?

I have tested the Tempest with almost every conceivable configuration, a week solid of work with a cost of over 35 million Cbills in tested weapons systems, engine sizes and types, pilot and weapon modules went in to this. Every ton was scrutinized for worthiness and this was the top performer for the role I wanted it to play.

[Siegegun]

OK. If you do not want to believe what has been said that is fine. It is your game your playing. You are wrong though. My tempest would have 5.5 tons more of useful stuff than yours. If you want to be an ostrich with your head in the sand by all means rock it. I will be happy if I ever see you playing in that build in a game though. Because I know for a fact your gimping yourself. Useless tonnage all over.

[Brain Cancer]

Yet you literally put three tons of equipment in it that does virtually nothing for the weight.

And the last time I checked was last week on CASE. Yay Clantech that has CASE automatically in all locations so you can get shot a lot of times!

Take an Orion or Highlander IIC, which have enough structure to get hit for a few doses of 10 damage per location. Put nothing but ammo in every location you can, no armor. Heck, STUFF it with ammo in every available space.

Let someone shoot you with a PPC- which will deal 10 damage on a crit, minimum- so it'll always destroy any ammo it hits with the usual 10% explosion odds. You will lose the location every time an ammo explosion happens on those full tons of ammo. No exceptions. The damage won't spread past the location thanks to CASE, but you can kiss anything in said location bye-bye as the internals are zeroed.

Repeat as often as you like until enlightenment dawns.

[Drunken Skull]

Yes, but that is expected, it is clan tech, you can lose side torso without popping your engines. Perhaps PGI thought it would be balanced by IS having case that actually works? Quote the rule book all you want but Ill believe what I experience, which is 70% mortality rate without case, and 10% with.

As for my "wasted tonnage", I find it useful to be able to lock my target ASAP for maximum Lurmification, and Thanks to my BAP and Missile range mods which you also think are "wasteful", I can take care of smart a##es who think they can "teeter on the edge of safety" by being 1002 metres away from me... yeah... big surprise for you there bud...

Edited by Drunken Skull, 28 July 2016 - 02:43 PM.

[Lykaon]

Drunken Skull, on 28 July 2016 - 08:01 AM, said:

Quite a few people have asked me what my Archer Tempest build is whilst in a match. I have always tried to reply with the limited time I have before the fight begins, but many details are left out as there simply isn't time to type them all out as I'm trying to tactically manouver my mech whilst trying not to get fragged in the back by enemy light mechs...

Here is the build in full detail;

TEMPEST

Left Arm: 2xMPLSR

Left Torso: Guardian ECM, C.A.S.E, LRM10, 3xLRM AMMO

Centre Torso: 300XL Engine with 2xDouble Heat Sinks, LRM10

Head: Command Console

Right Torso: BAP, C.A.S.E, LRM10, 3xLRM AMMO

Right Arm: 2xMPLSR

Modules, etc: Advanced Zoom, LRM10 Cooldown 5, LRM10 Range 5, Adv Target Decay,
Coolshot 6, Cool Shot 9x9, Endo Steel Internal Structure, Double Heat Sinks

All leftover tonnage is used in adding extra armor as the pilot see's fit.

Role and Tactics: Anti-Missile/Electronics Warfare/Missile Platform.

Primary role is to escort other units and shield them when they come under LRM fire with the ECM.
Limited Scouting and Deep-Striking/Flanking is also possible in some situations.

Set LRM to chain fire mode. Fire LRM selectively at sure locks only and NEVER manually open the missile bay doors prior to combat in order to ensure safety of the XL engine and ammunition stored there.

If ECM is detected, gaining Missile lock is possible at closer ranges with the BAP. Lock failure due to Enemy ECM can be overcome by switching ECM to Counter mode, although this will drop the ECM shield, so do this with caution.

Using LRM in combination with the MPLSR should be avoided as this can lead to rapid overheat. In emergency though, this can be done with judicial use of the coolant flush 6 and 9x9.

I have a lot of time in game piloting pretty much anything and everything. LRM platforms are more complex than most brawler pilots think. Here are my suggestions...

Command console is a doorstop,better off with more ammo or heatsinks. Any advantage gained from it's minor abilities could easily be replaced with better possitioning and situational awareness. Seriously,the command console is junk!

Put in 3 tons ammo instead.

BAP is also questionable for the same reasons the CC is not as valuable as you may think. Better possitioning and target selection will mostly negate the value of the BAP.

CASE with an XL engine? why? it actually is worthless and not just questionable. If the ammo blows so does your engine so pull the CASE it does nothing it doesn't even crit pad since it can't take damage.

Advanced zoom? your direct fire weapons are medium pulse lasers. You don't need the zoom. LRMs lock on and spread damage regardless of how clear of a view you have of the target and the medium pulse lasers have an optimal range of 220m if the standard zoom isn't adiquate at 220-400m you need a bigger screen not a zoom module.

Strongly recommend replacing the advanced zoom with an advanced seismic sensor to detect light mech attempting to backstab you. The XL engine makes you a very vulnerable target to rear attacking lights.

LRM10 range is another questionable choice. You should not be firing at targets further than 700m out with LRM10s anyhow (with exception of supressive fire but your ammo count is so low I wouldn't be doing this). The ammo expense is too high for the results you will achieve at ranges outside 1000m. This module is tempting you to waste ammo.
Replace it with a medium pulse laser range module.

If you pull the questionable/useless stuff out you can add 2 DHS.I would then remove one of the coolshot modules for an advanced UAV. The UAV is an excellent defensive tool as well as a recon tool. If you find yourself being ambushed by light mechs fire off the UAV and call in for help. If the rest of your team also has some LRMs those lights are now vulnerable to being fired upon because of the UAV. The UAV also helps you to track the possition of an enemy that is circling and weaving around you. This removes the guesswork when figuring where to turn to line up the target.

You may also want to rethink your torso armor placement. 10-12 on a rear torso is plenty for an XL heavy. If you are getting backshot a lot and stacked the armor to defend against it then the seismic sensor is a serious investment for you. If you are still getting back shot killed the issue is a need to work on awareness and defensive twisting.

Since this refit doesn't cost much (except the seismic module) give it a try and see how it goes. If you do nothing else PLEASE pull the CASE for ammo or a heatsink of something it really is 100% worthless with an XL engine.

[Brain Cancer]

If I blow a side torso with CASE, it triggers the full penalties regardless on a Clan XL. It's just not "kill target", just speed reduction etc.

Note that I didn't call your choice of a Beagle bad. And if you get the premium time this challenge, look me up. I'll happily drop in a 1v1 and demonstrate exactly how CASE works. And hey, if you WANT to fire at targets 6+ seconds away, I like having a range module to do it, though cooldown is generally more useful. (Adv. Target Decay, Cooldown, Range in that order IMHO).

Also, was it "ammo explosion"- that is, you'll see fireworks as the boom happens or "ammo DESTROYED", which is different.

Betty going "LRM ammo destroyed", for example isn't an ammo explosion. What's happened is the usual 90% odds kicked in when someone reduced an ammo critical space to zero health. You can't use the ammo in question but are otherwise functional.

"Ammo explosion" is the 10%, you go BOOM version. Incidentally, that jobs perfectly with your 10% mortality rate.

[Drunken Skull]

Perhaps this build is too much for people to comprehend. No space is wasted on this build, I have balanced it perfectly for my needs and play style. If I add a single ton more ammo then that is a waste, trust me I HAVE tried it and I DO know what I'm talking about. I run out of ammunition at the exact right time in a match, my matches rarely end with me having any LRM ammo left by design, when its 4/5 of the way through the match and it's mop up time you really don't want to have any excess ammo left onboard, with potentially stripped sections of armour and other battle damage taken during the main foray. Any additional heat sinks only add a slight margin of performance for the cost of free slots and useful EWAR gear such as the CC and BAP. I have tried running without the CC, and TBH I prefer having it, mech just doesn't jell right without it. And yes I do love my advanced zoom, helps me pop a mplaser right on the enemies windshield. Range isn't everything you use zoom for

Edited by Drunken Skull, 28 July 2016 - 03:07 PM.

[Siegegun]

But that is the point, you think the CC and the case are useful and they are not. And all the BAP gives you is increased sensor range and the ability to detect shutdown mechs when it is coupled with ECM. The BAP countering is over ridden by the ECM. While the increased sensor range could synergize with your LRM range module those are not good ranges to be trying to LRM at, especially if you are ammo starved.

I find your insinuation that this build is "too much" for people to comprehend laughable when it is you that simply does not seem to know how the game even works. CC and CASE on IS XL engines are factually terrible. Literally useless.

[Brain Cancer]

If it works for you, then OK.

Three tons for 6% sensor range + 5% zoom when your Beagle gave you 25% for 1.5 tons is painfully inefficient though. Adv Sensor Range beats the pants off it for zero tonnage- Beagle + ASR will give you line-of-sight detection capacity pretty much everywhere, even Polar or Alpine.

Command Console has such incredibly minimal bonuses compared to other actual electronics gear/modules that it's simply not used, and that's why- whatever it does, you can do better with something else for less. It's a functional build, but definitely not an optimal build even for it's stated purposes.