78 replies to this topic

[Cato Zilks]

It was clear at the roundtable discussion that Russ wants to keep Long Tom. The table did not seem to have as many fixes for LT, and I think the substitutions were not great ideas.

So, before we go further, if you want to reply with anything along the lines of #neverlongtom, then leave. This is for ideas on how to fix/better-incorporate LT.

The Problem with LT:
The table did a great job with enumerating the problems. 1) people stop dropping on a planet once the enemy has LT, 2) LT destroys combat in drops by killing so many mechs, 3) the damage is really high as well as indiscriminate and unavoidable, 4) it drives pugs from FW.

In short it is an overpowered near-guaranteed win if you have it.


Ideas from the Roundtable:
1) replace LT with permanent UAV:

Pat Kell mentioned the obvious problem with this plan in the roundtable: LRMaggeddon. Non stop LRM's is better in that a) LRM's have 1000m range, 2) the are kinda avoidable (maybe not on Boreal), 3) and at least players are doing the damage.

But, this LRM maddness is probably going to drive people away just like LT does now. It also devalues scouting and UAV consumables. So, without solving the OP problem this does not seem that useful.

2) replace LT with permanent seismic:

This does avoid the LRM lock problem. But, it devalues a $6,000,000 module (seismic) while simultaneously not adding enough worth to pursue scouting up to 90% control. The satellite sweep informs us what type of mech is where every two minutes. Getting constant-but-inferior information will not motivate players. It is a minor improvement over satellite sweep.

3) replace LT with "Thumper" (a bunch of little arty strikes?):

This is essentially a giant damage Nerf. This is still indiscriminate and unavoidable damage, but it damages way less.

Personally, I think this is less enticing than constant seismic. It is actually a lot of work to get LT and to only have scratched enemies from all that work seems a waste. Moreover, it still has the same annoying quality as the Long Tom: it cant be avoided.

That being said, this seemed to be the winner from the roundtable, even though Russ did not seem wild about it. Lets see if we can't do better.

[feeWAIVER]

Here's an idea!
How bout 90% gives a bonus in scouting mode that encourages people to hold the 90%?
Like double cbills or something.

[Cato Zilks]

Commander picks sector:

Idea here is simple. The strength and frequency of LT remain unchanged, but the area the LT can auto-target in is greatly reduced. Have the company commander pick on sector (or two) on the map for Long Tom. Once a sector is picked, it cannot be changed. Now, whenever an enemy is spotted in that sector, LT does its business. Once LT is charged, it stays ready to fire until an enemy comes into firing range.

This avoids the indiscriminate and unavoidable problem. Once you figure out where LT is targeting, those sectors can be meticulously avoided or you can send one scout ahead to trip the wires.

Here is an example of Grim Portico:

As you can see getting thru D4 would be tough, but a scout could trip LT providing safety for the main force. On other maps (Taiga, Vitric) the Longtom can effectively shut down one gate, making the map much easier to defend.

This keeps a very powerful tool that is worth the effort in scouting, while not so very OP as to destroy invasion mode.

[Cato Zilks]

feeWAIVER, on 29 July 2016 - 02:57 PM, said:

Here's an idea!
How bout 90% gives a bonus in scouting mode that encourages people to hold the 90%?
Like double cbills or something.

2x Cbills for the scouters or the invaders? Both?

My concern is that a reverse LT pattern would emerge, nobody would invade until that cbill bonus was in play. I think Russ wants people to be active in both of these ques at the same time. That aside, I think this would certainly motivate some players to go through with and maintain the scouting. Maybe PGI could add a Green call to arms for when there were double cbills.

Edited by Cato Zilks, 29 July 2016 - 03:13 PM.

[AnTi90d]

#NeverLongTom

[feeWAIVER]

Here's another solution that is better than the ones presented in the OP.

Make Satellite Sweeps the 3rd bonus.
Make Combat ID the 2nd..

And make a new passive effect like bonus cbills or loyalty be the low tier bonus.
(It doesn't even have to be a percentage increase, it could just be a flat amount.)


/Fixed

Edited by feeWAIVER, 29 July 2016 - 03:43 PM.

[nehebkau]

@CATO

The commander picks is an excellent idea except for one problem:

Pugs

Some random pug gets command and sets long-tom right on the friendly base... inc FF whenever the enemy approaches.

Some random pug gets command, doesn't know how to use Tom and keeps command for the entire match.

Some random pug gets command, knows what to do but chooses not to because they want to be a douche.

[MischiefSC]

90% scouting gives a 10% payout bonus in invasion and a 30% payout bonus for Scouting.

That is a big reward with chasing without messing up balance.

4v4 will never be as balanced as 12v12 with 4 respawns. It will always be one sided.

[Kael Posavatz]

MischiefSC, on 29 July 2016 - 03:53 PM, said:

90% scouting gives a 10% payout bonus in invasion and a 30% payout bonus for Scouting.

That is a big reward with chasing without messing up balance.

An interesting idea. The problem with it is the same one the loyalists in general have. Those who have been playing from day 1 of CW/FW have largely maxed the reward tiers and by now have so many c-bills that they have run out of things to spend them on.

How about another actual information bonus? I agree with the points raised about the constant UAV or Seismic, but what if the other team is haloed much like the teams are in the spectator tool. Color shading could be used to indicate how hot a mech is running, or how much damage it's taken, or maybe even coded to primary weapons (shades of red for size autocannon, for example). Or shade them all hot pink so they are more easily seen at long range. Or maybe an upgrade to dropships so they do a sensor sweep whenever they come in.

[Cato Zilks]

nehebkau, on 29 July 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:

The commander picks is an excellent idea except for one problem:

Pugs

Bad puggles mess up everything about co-ordinated drops. I just view them as slightly more annoying than usual in this case.

Kael Posavatz, on 29 July 2016 - 04:40 PM, said:

How about another actual information bonus? I agree with the points raised about the constant UAV or Seismic, but what if the other team is haloed much like the teams are in the spectator tool. Color shading could be used to indicate how hot a mech is running, or how much damage it's taken, or maybe even coded to primary weapons (shades of red for size autocannon, for example). Or shade them all hot pink so they are more easily seen at long range.

I think this idea could help Pugs a lot. And if the glowy halo intensify on damaged parts would be great training for less experienced players. I think I would pursue that in scouting mode just so we could bring in more pugs and train them. However, I think the devil is in the details on this one as it kinda is nerfing some modules. Target gathering already gives you this info, just not in such an easy overlay. I also don't know if this would help better players all that much (but they don't really need the help). I like this in concept.

Edited by Cato Zilks, 29 July 2016 - 08:32 PM.

[Kin3ticX]

Its kinda hard to replace atomic attack with something equally as useful.

#DeleteLongtom
#RemoveLongtom
#RepealAndReplaceLongtom
#LongtomMustDie

[Pat Kell]

I know that there is a lot to be desired with what was presented on how to replace the long tom as just about any idea that is put forward can have an issue found about it. The ideas that I put forward were some of the best ones I managed to come across while reading the forums and while they all have things about them could be abused or considered not useful enough to grind scouting to 90%, at least it would be a mechanic that once reached, the ques wouldn't empty. That was my main goal and while I still don't like the idea of a long tom that has the damage of an arty strike but maintaining the radius of the current long tom, such as Russ put forth, I don't think it will empty to ques of invasion mode. It wouldn't be nearly as bad and I think there would be some who see it as useless to try to grind to it.

I like the idea of the 1st tier being a c-bill bonus (could be viewed as scouts stealing vital supplies from the enemy) and maybe even a -10% c-bill reward to the enemy team for it, but that might be a bit harsh.

I also liked the idea of making each drop that occurs pay for these benefits it via intel points. Want to see what the enemy is bringing, spend X amount of intel in order to view them. What to drop a long tom, have to pay for it with intel points. That way, the tier would be in flux constantly and even if you were winning every match, your allies could be preventing you from getting long tom simply by being nosey and trying to see what the enemy mechs are. Long tom would only have an impact on the match that was lucky/unlucky enough to have it before the points were spent and you would be dropped back down below the 90% level. That way long tom could still be devastating but it would be much harder to maintain...although I do think the damage needs to be adjusted pretty severely so that it doesn't automatically destroy just about any mech with 150m or more of it's epicenter.

Sure there are better ideas, I just know that Long tom in it's current state is detrimental to this game mode and it needs to get remove/replaced before any kind of resurgence can even be hoped for.

Edited by Pat Kell, 30 July 2016 - 12:54 AM.

[Vincent Quatermain]

For right now, long tom should just be disabled. But, it would be nice to replace it with something. Here are some options:

1) Just have satellite sweeps occur more often at the top tier. This gives lots of info without causing LRMgeddon.

2) Have drones that fly over the battlefield (UAVs that move and follow the enemy mechs). These could be shot down just like UAVs, and then there would be a 2 or 3 minute delay before a new one showed up. Probably would want to give them more armor than a UAV module (double?), and have them lazily circle the biggest group of mechs it can find.

Both of these are powerful, but don't inflict damage on their own. Most importantly, a smart team could work around them.

[Karmen Baric]

Long Tom just needs to be removed.

[NSallaNuto]

Replace it with an artillery strike every 3 minutes to lance leaders, to be placed on map not in 1PV view. Commander would have one per minute.

Light damage, more meant to disturb than destroy.

[Danjo San]

Have posted this solution in a different thread before, but I am glad to share my idea here again it goes against the idea to hold on to LT, but if Russ considered LRM Turrets to be OP in Assault Mode QP and holds on to LT I dunno....
Anyway. My suggestion would be to replace it by "advantages". Advantages would differ from each mode.

Invasion - Attack. Advantage would be an early drop for the attackers. early enough to take out and open gates, without reaching the gens or enemy dropzone... small but valuable

Invasion - Defend. Turrets and Gens are buffed with extra HP, or Weapon Quirks, Longer Range, quicker Cooldown, Less burn time etc.

Counter Attack. Early Drop lets the attacking team reach the gates quicker than the defenders

Hold Territory. Gates and Turrets are repaired. Mobile Field base and Victory conditions remain the same.

These are One Shot Advantages... Nothing game breaking but still providing advantages.

I would rerank the Scouting Benefits as follows: Combat ID, Tactical Advantage, Satellite Sweep.

There is still enough incentive to scout to the end, but nothing that destroys the game from the start.

[LordNothing]

rather than scouting unlocking long tom scouting should unlock 'comm tower'. when this is unlocked, you start the game with a comm tower on the map somewhere (on the side of the map of the team that owns it). they can use the beacon model that used to be seen in ghost drops. surround it with turrets and place it somewhere out of the way on each map.

so long as this comm tower is in tact, the commander may call up an lt strike. they dont get to aim, they just get to choose a time to fire. it may also require your team have sight of the enemy before the button can be pressed (this can be uav, sat sweep, or a mech). this provides the observation post the data it needs to coordinate artillery. it can be fired once every 4 or 5 minutes.

at any time the enemy can come in and destroy the comm tower and permanently remove the ability to fire the long tom for the rest of the match. a team might choose to defend this tower, and it provides an extra thing to fight over. another idea is to make it cappable, where it can be turned against the enemy. which could lead to some very interesting games.

Edited by LordNothing, 31 July 2016 - 12:13 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

I see issues with Long Tom all the time it retains its current strength even at 50 percent of what it is now, in the area pattern (one big circle) it commands.

Making it controllable, will make it even worse, because currently the random element does actually make it a pain for the people with it as well as without, with player control it just makes it even more likely that those without it will stop contesting the planet.

Quite clearly its staying, because if it goes there has to be something else to replace it, and as mentioned perm UAV will cause lurm fests, and I think P.G.I are sticking on this, because they don't know what to replace it with..

Now I'm suggesting this idea, as a person who hates random damage, I saw Long Tom and it took me less time to work out that FW was dead if this went live than it took for the nuke graphic to finish, and thought it was so obviously bad for the game that P.G.I wanted F.W to fail badly to try get people playing more arena matches.

First off, forget calling it Long Tom, as this implies its one barrel, call it Arty Barrage multiple barrels, its fluff and cosmetic, but it needs this change, because LT has such bad press, and repackaging goes a long way to altering things.

It works, I bought Battletech, I sold Battle droids and held it in contempt, because I saw the title and thought its going to be cute little robots with zap guns, while holding images of the game Battling tops in my mind.

Second really dial back damage hard, so it will not insta kill mechs with armour on all locations, even if caught in the open.

The shape of the Damage area needs to change, it shouldn't be a circle, it should be a pattern of shell bursts very much like the current arty strike but a slightly bigger area. which falls in a random spot inside the current circle.

To give the thing some value other than annoyance only, you add another level to scouting a fourth hex when arty barrage activates you get a single strike in the circle, for each twi sides of the hex that the scouting side colour you get another strike, added to the circle for a maximum of four arty strikes, inside the current circle, all determined randomly with the possiblity of them over lapping.

This is so that scouting for it retains value, and because each strike lands independent of each other they might do no damage, or they might still destroy a mech, or mechs if two,three or even four strikes manage to over lap, in the right area.

It retains RNjesus mode which I don't like, can still destroy mechs, but the chance of that happening is very much reduced,

[FallingAce]

NSallaNuto, on 30 July 2016 - 12:27 AM, said:

Replace it with an artillery strike every 3 minutes to lance leaders, to be placed on map not in 1PV view. Commander would have one per minute.

Light damage, more meant to disturb than destroy.

This or something very close to this .

I don't know why calling in artillery or air strikes from the overhead maps isn't already in the game.

They can call the new strikes long tom and keep russ happy.

Edited by FallingAce, 31 July 2016 - 01:03 PM.

[DaFrog]

We do not need LONG TOM because it is implemented in artillery strikes and air strikes. There never was, in Btech history, a mini long tom and a Hiroshima Long Tom.

now you want to make scouting important ? Then the party that out scouted the other one gets to be able to use it's artillery strikes and air strikes. The losing party is denied being able to use them.