413 replies to this topic

[GrimRiver]

One big mistake I noticing is people keep trying to compare a LB10X with a AC10.

1.LBX is NOTHING like an AC.

2.LBX is pretty much a shotgun, the AC's are not.

3.You don't compare shotgun pellets with a rifle bullets, they are not the same.

4.LBX's should not perform anything like AC's.

Now I can understand if people want the LBX's to shoot slugs but they'll be less accurate then a AC that was primarily build to fire cannon round.

It'll be no different then if you replace buckshot with slugs, yes the slugs will be more accurate then buckshot but you'll still be firing it out of a shotgun and a shotgun will never have the accuracy of a rifle.

Believe me I know, I've used firearms IRL for most my life.

[davoodoo]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 August 2016 - 09:51 AM, said:

If you think range is the only thing that matters for that weapon then I guess you don't understand what makes certain weapons good. If it had boosted damage while still retaining its cluster shot, it would be useful, after all SRMs are technically a cluster shotgun and they are the best brawling weapon in the game.

You dont have a missile weapon which hits single spot, srm6 weights 3 tons and does 12.9 dmg and you still are encouraged to pack artemis and boat them to actually make a good use of those.
Basically for tonnage of ac10 with 10 damage you can pack 51.6 worth of srms alpha at 1 extra slot.

lbx hits for 10x1dmg, weights 11 tons and take up 6 slots.
idk how much it would need to hit to make it useful as cluster launcher, if we consider it weights 3.6 times more than srm and takes 2-3 times more slots then no less than 3 dmg per pellet.
And even with that dmg i would still prefer ac10 at 400m.

GrimRiver, on 01 August 2016 - 10:23 AM, said:

One big mistake I noticing is people keep trying to compare a LB10X with a AC10.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LB_10-X_AC
"LB-X Autocannons are able to use either the special cluster rounds or standard autocannon rounds. "

You also think of ac's like a rifle, thats wrong, think of them like a slug shotgun.

Edited by davoodoo, 01 August 2016 - 10:44 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Brain Cancer, on 01 August 2016 - 10:14 AM, said:

Aren't those actually damageable locations but "no effect" since PGI just didn't add them in?

Yes, but other things are still far more useful for those Crits, as they all have 10 HP (Engine a blanket 15HP for 6-12 slots)

[GrimRiver]

davoodoo, on 01 August 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

You dont have a missile weapon which hits single spot, srm6 weights 3 tons and does 12.9 dmg and you still are encouraged to pack artemis and boat them to actually make a good use of those.

lbx hits for 10x1dmg, weights 11 tons and take up 6 slots.
idk how much it would need to hit to make it useful as cluster launcher, if we consider it weights 3.3 times more than srm and takes 2-3 times more slots then no less than 3 dmg per pellet.
And even with that dmg i would still prefer ac10 at 400m.


http://www.sarna.net/wiki/LB_10-X_AC
"LB-X Autocannons are able to use either the special cluster rounds or standard autocannon rounds. "

You also think of ac's like a rifle, thats wrong, think of them like a slug shotgun.

LBX's are like a swiss army knife, it may be able to do multiple things but it'll never be as good as a weapon system that is built solely for one intended purpose.

Ac's are actually considered artillery https://en.wikipedia...tillery_by_type

[davoodoo]

GrimRiver, on 01 August 2016 - 10:45 AM, said:

LBX's are like a swiss army knife, it may be able to do multiple things but it'll never be as good as a weapon system that is built solely for one intended purpose.

Ac's are actually considered artillery https://en.wikipedia...tillery_by_type

Definition of artillery
"mounted projectile-firing guns or missile launchers, mobile or stationary, light or heavy, as distinguished from small arms."


In terms of battletech artillery would be.
Atm, srm, mrm, lrm, gauss, ac of all kinds and calibers and ppc, sniper artillery, long tom, arrow IV, MACHINE GUNS and probably few other things i forgot about
We can also argue about whether laser beam is projectile but hell ill classify lasers as artillery too.
Only thing that i would honestly exclude based on that definition is flamer.

Btw mech mounted machine gun is artillery, infantry handheld version is not, same with slas.

As for lb10x yes, had flexibility of slugs and clusters, but only place where it was worse than ac10 was lack of specialty ammo(other than cluster)

Edited by davoodoo, 01 August 2016 - 10:55 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

davoodoo, on 01 August 2016 - 10:29 AM, said:

You dont have a missile weapon which hits single spot, srm6 weights 3 tons and does 12.9 dmg and you still are encouraged to pack artemis and boat them to actually make a good use of those.
Basically for tonnage of ac10 with 10 damage you can pack 51.6 worth of srms alpha at 1 extra slot.

lbx hits for 10x1dmg, weights 11 tons and take up 6 slots.
idk how much it would need to hit to make it useful as cluster launcher, if we consider it weights 3.6 times more than srm and takes 2-3 times more slots then no less than 3 dmg per pellet.

You forgot the heat efficiency and you are much more location dependent on good brawlers and you downplay the fact it can actually do damage outside of 270 even if it isn't full damage. The heat efficiency generally lends itself to be combined with lasers to help inflate the damage. Basically I would love to see a return of some of the old lasers and massive autocannon brawler builds and LBX is the key to that since they behave similar to a shotgun anyway.

[GrimRiver]

davoodoo, on 01 August 2016 - 10:54 AM, said:

Definition of artillery
"mounted projectile-firing guns or missile launchers, mobile or stationary, light or heavy, as distinguished from small arms."


In terms of battletech artillery would be.
Atm, srm, mrm, lrm, gauss, ac of all kinds and calibers and ppc, sniper artillery, long tom, arrow IV, MACHINE GUNS and probably few other things i forgot about
We can also argue about whether laser beam is projectile but hell ill classify lasers as artillery too.
Only thing that i would honestly exclude based on that definition is flamer.

Btw mech mounted machine gun is artillery, infantry handheld version is not, same with slas.

As for lb10x yes, had flexibility of slugs and clusters, but only place where it was worse than ac10 was lack of specialty ammo(other than cluster)

Well yeah to be fair most the weapon system would be considered artillery but I wouldn't call MG's that since the range on them on far too short alongside with the flamers, they're more niche then the LBX's.

But I'm talking more along the lines of existing objects already in use ingame.

The LBX's function as this games version of a shotgun while AC's function closer to that of artillery in the truest sense(except LRM's of course) and as it stands now there is no slugs for the LBX's and if there were then they would be worst then AC's in some ways or people would pick LBX's over AC's because LBX's are lighter and take up less room then AC's.

That would be more true with clans because their AC's are bad and there really is no reason to pick them over UAC's, LBX slugs would be a straight upgrade from clan AC's(if done right).

While IS LB10X doesn't really need slugs since we got the AC10, which is a bit heavier and larger then a LB10X.

I should be saying I'm not unwelcoming to the thought of a LBX buff but we shouldn't try to make them more like AC's, it's just not their use ingame.

Edited by GrimRiver, 01 August 2016 - 11:52 AM.

[Vlad Striker]

LB20x performs very well now.

Edited by Vlad Striker, 01 August 2016 - 11:54 AM.

[davoodoo]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 August 2016 - 11:13 AM, said:

You forgot the heat efficiency and you are much more location dependent on good brawlers and you downplay the fact it can actually do damage outside of 270 even if it isn't full damage. The heat efficiency generally lends itself to be combined with lasers to help inflate the damage. Basically I would love to see a return of some of the old lasers and massive autocannon brawler builds and LBX is the key to that since they behave similar to a shotgun anyway.

No i didnt.
30 dmg vs 52.6 for the superior range and heat efficiency.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

davoodoo, on 01 August 2016 - 11:57 AM, said:

No i didnt.
30 dmg vs 52.6 for the superior range and heat efficiency.

What in the world is your comparison exactly?

If you are comparing an LBX10 with triple damage and SRMs of equal tonnage, you did the math wrong.
Assume artemis because artemis is required for effective SRM boats, which means you only get 3 ASRM6 for the same tonnage as an LBX10, which makes it 30 dmg vs 38.7 dmg. There are other factors here as well, one major one being that LBX are not dependent on clustered hardpoints like SRMs are due to have more "damage density" and not having to be lead as far as SRMs need to which leads to the next part which is faster velocity and thus easier aiming. At triple damage LBX10s would be insanely powerful and cLBX20s would be absurd, the KDK-3 would most likely take over the Spirit Bear for assault brawling with that sort of damage potential (120 damage, lulz).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 August 2016 - 12:14 PM.

[davoodoo]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 August 2016 - 12:09 PM, said:

What in the world is your comparison exactly?

proposed lb10x vs 4srm6 or 6srm4(this one got better grouping than srm6a) pretty much.

Edited by davoodoo, 01 August 2016 - 12:15 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

davoodoo, on 01 August 2016 - 12:13 PM, said:

proposed lb10x vs 4srm6 or 6srm4 pretty much.

Then you did it wrong, artemis is pretty important for everything but light missile boats like the Jenners (Clan and Oxide).

[davoodoo]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 August 2016 - 12:16 PM, said:

Then you did it wrong, artemis is pretty important for everything but light missile boats like the Jenners (Clan and Oxide).

srm4 got good enough grouping to forgo artemis, hello 8srm4 arc5w.

So i disagree.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

davoodoo, on 01 August 2016 - 12:21 PM, said:

srm4 got good enough grouping to forgo artemis, hello 8srm4 arc5w.

Except the best brawlers use it, and the ARC-5W isn't one of them.

Both Griffins (3M and 2N) which are one of the best splat mechs due to their hardpoints still run artemis on both 6s and 4s (or should be anyway) so yeah, I'm definitely going to disagree.

Without artemis the LBX spread is tighter than SRM4/6s without artemis are, even on a mech like the 2D2 which has everything tightly packed.

[EvilCow]

Prosperity Park, on 01 August 2016 - 09:17 AM, said:

Remember, we cannot strive to make the IS LBX/10 "as good as" the IS AC/10.

The LBX weighs less, takes up fewer slots, and generates less heat. It should have worse performance, overall, as a consequence. It is, in balance terms, a Lesser Weapon.

Simplistic approach sorry. It should not be worse or better, it is meant to be different.

The LBX could be the choice at short range because higher damage and spread, the AC would be better except up close.

Shotgun vs Rifle.

Right now it is just worse, balance has nothing to do with that.

Edited by EvilCow, 01 August 2016 - 12:41 PM.

[davoodoo]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 01 August 2016 - 12:26 PM, said:

Except the best brawlers use it, and the ARC-5W isn't one of them.

Both Griffins (3M and 2N) which are one of the best splat mechs due to their hardpoints still run artemis on both 6s and 4s (or should be anyway) so yeah, I'm definitely going to disagree.

Without artemis the LBX spread is tighter than SRM4/6s without artemis are, even on a mech like the 2D2 which has everything tightly packed.

ofc arc5w isnt best brawler, youve seen hitboxes on that thing?? and with griffin you mean the guy who got 4 missile hardpoints and spare tonnage for artemis so why not?? k

cba to buy lb10x(800k for this mess) so i would like some proof of that
Also i hope it puts at least 50% more shots into target than srm4 do at 250 and 200m ranges

Edited by davoodoo, 01 August 2016 - 12:45 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

davoodoo, on 01 August 2016 - 12:42 PM, said:

ofc arc5w isnt best brawler, youve seen hitboxes on that thing??

It's more than just hitboxes that ruin the Archer, either way, how many mechs are able to mount more than 6 SRMs to begin with? You are basically saying the Archer is a common case, and it's not, there isn't a single medium that is capable of more than 5, only 3 heavies can do more than 5, and not a single assault can do more than 5. That's not to mention there is diminishing returns with mounting more SRMs due to heat concerns.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 August 2016 - 01:01 PM.

[InspectorG]

EZ fix for LBX.

Pellet does .5 damage vs armor.

Pellet does 2 damage vs STRUCTURE.

Pellets crit at +3 damage for a total of 5 damage for each pellet that crits.

Quirk spread and velocity per chassis/variant.

[davoodoo]

Hows that test going??

InspectorG, on 01 August 2016 - 01:19 PM, said:

EZ fix for LBX.

Pellet does .5 damage vs armor.

Pellet does 2 damage vs STRUCTURE.

Pellets crit at +3 damage for a total of 5 damage for each pellet that crits.

Quirk spread and velocity per chassis/variant.

So for majority of the fight lb10x will do even less than ac5, possibly less than even ac2 and at structure it will hit like ac20 or maybe bit stronger at 250m??

Look, this might work in a 1v1 duel, but in 12v12 most of ppl will rather choose weapon which is more reliable, not that you can blow structure in 1 alpha already.

Edited by davoodoo, 01 August 2016 - 01:29 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

davoodoo, on 01 August 2016 - 01:22 PM, said:

Hows that test going??

Considering I can't since I'm at work, decided to look through the patch notes, and they gave some interesting details.
LBX spread changes
Last SRM spread changes

tl;dr
Inner Sphere LB10-X
• Projectile Spread reduced from 1.3m to 0.9m.
IS SRM/4
• Projectile Spread reduced from 5.2 to 3.5m.
Even with artemis (which reduces spread by 33%), LBX10s have less spread than 4s according to this (McGral, happen to be able to check the files?). Though the context at what range they have this spread is missing, seriously PGI, y u no give context for anything.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 01 August 2016 - 01:45 PM.