121 replies to this topic

[MacClearly]

ice trey, on 06 August 2016 - 09:40 PM, said:

Honestly, I don't like tier sharing.

"Curiosity" or not, publicising tiers has shown more than a few people on the forums criticising other players' opinions of the game with "You're not tier one? You don't know what you're talking about and your opinion is invalid."

Screw what their background is, to boot.

It's not unreasonable to use someone's Tier to judge what they are saying. Tier four or five players are either new or terrible. There experience outside of the game is irrelevant.

I am six months into the game and if I see a player giving advice who is either hiding his Tier or is a four or five, I know not to waste my time reading what they have to say. You may not like this way of thinking, but I know exactly what is in Tier four and five. It absolutely makes sense to learn from people who are at least doing alright or understand the game enough to progress through the system.

[Aramuside]

LORD ORION, on 06 August 2016 - 03:33 PM, said:

Tiers should be displayed on the tab scoreboard so I...
1) know who is likely to shoot me in the back
2) who is going to hide and never engage
3) who I can probably rely on to use basic tactics such as focus fire

That makes zero sense at all. We had a tier 1/2 match today from comments made in chat and we had a well known DDC pilot sit behind everyone else in cover for most of the fight... then go hunting a single adder...

Tier is not a guarantee of anything except time played and maybe map knowledge(if lucky).

Ted Wayz, on 07 August 2016 - 08:00 AM, said:

OP why? So you can say, "See it wasn't my fault"?

How about at the end of a match it posts how many matches someone has played. Just as relevant and less arbitrary.

How many matches in that mech would be more relevant.

[badaa]

tier = time played not skill

[Ghostrider0067]

MacClearly, on 07 August 2016 - 12:38 PM, said:

It's not unreasonable to use someone's Tier to judge what they are saying. Tier four or five players are either new or terrible. There experience outside of the game is irrelevant.

I am six months into the game and if I see a player giving advice who is either hiding his Tier or is a four or five, I know not to waste my time reading what they have to say. You may not like this way of thinking, but I know exactly what is in Tier four and five. It absolutely makes sense to learn from people who are at least doing alright or understand the game enough to progress through the system.

And that is exactly the ignorant elitism we're talking about. Maybe someone doesn't feel like endlessly grinding and enjoys life outside of MWO or gaming in general? While I do like the game, I have interest in a great number of other things. Does that invalidate my experience or make my opinion any less valuable than yours? Of course not; however, to someone with an incredibly narrow minded focus who is full of hubris rather than being open to ideas greater than their own, yes, tier is going to matter.

Look, man. I don't know you personally and thus I can't speak to you in that sense or on that level, but I think you're going about it wrong.

Edited by Ghostrider0067, 07 August 2016 - 03:53 PM.

[Foxwalker]

In Faction Play I noticed that the cut off the bottom half of the Ghost Bear Logo. With the bottom cut off, the top points look like bunny ears. So the Ghost Bears are actually Angry Bunnys.

[MacClearly]

Ghostrider0067, on 07 August 2016 - 01:35 PM, said:

And that is exactly the ignorant elitism we're talking about. Maybe someone doesn't feel like endlessly grinding and enjoys life outside of MWO or gaming in general? While I do like the game, I have interest in a great number of other things. Does that invalidate my experience or make my opinion any less valuable than yours? Of course not; however, to someone with an incredibly narrow minded focus who is full of hubris rather than being open to ideas greater than their own, yes, tier is going to matter.

Look, man. I don't know you personally and this can't speak to you in that sense, but I think you're going about it wrong.

It is a shame you don't understand what elitism really means. The backhanded way you infer that people good at the game must not have a life is ridiculous. Absurd even.

Saying that I pay attention to those who know what they are doing in the game is just pragmatic. I would not learn how to play tennis from someone who wasn't very good at tennis. If it was elitism, I would say that I would not associate or be friends with someone of a lower Tier.

So, you don't agree. I get it. You are also not displaying your Tier, so I take what you say about the game with a grain of salt because it is quite possible that you are not very good at it. This is not an idictment of who you are as a person.

As others have said, the psr is flawed. As flawed as it is however, even someone with a fundamental grasp of this game can reach Tier 3 or 2. Possibly with time even 1. Like I have said in another post, I recently created another account. You can't tell me that there is not a marked difference between 5 and 2. In fact, the difference is enormous.

[Ghostrider0067]

MacClearly, on 07 August 2016 - 04:00 PM, said:

It is a shame you don't understand what elitism really means. The backhanded way you infer that people good at the game must not have a life is ridiculous. Absurd even.

Saying that I pay attention to those who know what they are doing in the game is just pragmatic. I would not learn how to play tennis from someone who wasn't very good at tennis. If it was elitism, I would say that I would not associate or be friends with someone of a lower Tier.

So, you don't agree. I get it. You are also not displaying your Tier, so I take what you say about the game with a grain of salt because it is quite possible that you are not very good at it. This is not an idictment of who you are as a person.

As others have said, the psr is flawed. As flawed as it is however, even someone with a fundamental grasp of this game can reach Tier 3 or 2. Possibly with time even 1. Like I have said in another post, I recently created another account. You can't tell me that there is not a marked difference between 5 and 2. In fact, the difference is enormous.

You have, as I disappointingly expected, missed my point. I'm well aware of the meaning and concept of elitism. Further, I made no such inference to people being good at the game not having a life, but you're free to make whatever assumptions you wish about my statement. I spoke in that sense about me, personally, and my desire to do things outside of this game or others I happen to play. I'm skilled at the game but simply don't find the need or desire to toot my own horn by displaying a rating that genuinely means little seeing that simply playing will eventually get you to the top. I also find no use in that as a support as to why an idea I may have is better than that of someone less so. Full disclosure: I play the game when I have time, how I feel to play it, and could really care less about what someone thinks about me based on a number. Does that better clarify my position for you? I just recently came back to the game after taking several years off.

I don't display my tier because it's not all that important to me. You're free to make all the assumptions you wish. I'm glad that you've clarified your position on not using your view as an indictment of me as a person seeing as you don't know me personally. While it's decent of you to say that you wouldn't choose to use tier as a means of being friends with someone or not, you're still using it as a means of judging someone. Elitism? Perhaps not. Still, you don't seem all too keen on taking what someone has to say as applicable or decent should their tier not meet that of your own or maybe approach it.

I agree that PSR is flawed. That is without disagreement. As I said in another post, I've seen some great play at the lower levels and some absolutely boneheaded and completely unsound play in the upper ones. It is on the player to learn and adapt as that is a choice. At the root of a person, there is a mindset and that is where habits, both good and bad, come to roost. Those habits are readily displayed on the battlefield. I'm sure you can agree with that.

As a footnote, my comment wasn't a critque of you per se as it was more directed at those who are wholly uninterested in accepting or acknowledging thoughts or ideas from lower levels yet still experienced players.

Edited by Ghostrider0067, 07 August 2016 - 04:46 PM.

[MacClearly]

Ghostrider0067, on 07 August 2016 - 01:35 PM, said:

Maybe someone doesn't feel like endlessly grinding and enjoys life outside of MWO or gaming in general? While I do like the game, I have interest in a great number of other things.

I am absolutely not missing your point. I just completely disagree with you. Look at your above statement and try to backpeddle that you were not inferring anything. It's disingenuous at best. Now your going to be condescending???

I have called you out for your misuse of the term elitism. I don't think it wise to take your word for how good you are at the game with nothing to back it up. Sorry this hits a nerve with you, but it is far from being unreasonable. I play and practise this game to get better at it. Having a metric such as psr is helpful and there is no reason it should be private in my opinion.

So while the Tier may not be the end all and be all, it certainly helps determine who it would be most beneficial to listen to as far as how to get better.

[Ghostrider0067]

You're completely free to disagree. I have no issue with that whatsoever and wholly respect that. I doubt I would get the same respect in return but that's totally fine.

I was being neither disingenuous nor condescending in m statement. Clearly it struck a nerve with you though. Why is that? I made a statement, plain and simple. If I were going to be condescending, it would be clear. I don't dance around or talk in a circle. I have always called it how I felt it to be. You don't have to like it or agree with it. As before, I respect your take all the same.

Finally, your opinion on my skill and my decision to not show my tier makes no mark in my soul. I'm happy either way and win far more than I lose, even while piloting my good ol' Cataphract. I, like you, play to get better. If you don't, what's the point? Who plays to fail and lose?

We can agree to disagree, I guess. I'd much rather they simply did away with the tier thing entirely and just left everyone to their own skill and wits. You get better and learn from playing against better players. That, however, does not necessarily mean that an idea or thought someone had about the game should be ignored based on some arbitrary level though and that was my point the whole time.

Again, nothing personal to you. It was never meant as such. I'd be perfectly happy to take some drops with you sometime should you be interested. Let's leave it with that, no?

[Ren Grey]

LOL, why are you guys getting in arguments about stupid crap. As stated before and this is non disputable fact, tiers don't mean anything more than time played and at most, being OK at the game. I am a prime example of that and I play with people worse than I am regularly and they are Tier 1 too. I don't take it seriously and goof off all the time. One match I may charge ahead and die in 10 seconds, one match I may decide to go around legging as many of the enemies as I can, in a recent match I spent 90% of it taking hits for a one legged spider so he could keep shooting. Does it sound like I should get favor just because I am Tier 1, you'd have to be crazy to reach that conclusion.

Tiers aren't going to help you determine whom knows what they are talking about or is taking it seriously, etc. It's a shot in the dark, not even enough to qualify as an educated guess. On that note I don't know why it would matter if they were available at the end of the match. Whether unfounded or not, if someone believes that is important data then why not let them have it, it's not going to hurt you. Your mom probably told you that if someone doesn't like you for you, they aren't worth knowing so who cares what someone else thinks about your stats. If you are the type whom thinks stats are super important I could not imagine it being difficult for you to reach Tier 1 as that way of thinking and being at least a somewhat decent gamer generally go hand in hand.

Ultimately, it's a freaking game and a pretty crappy one at that. I can however appreciate having a different attitude if you are playing in a competitive mode.

Edited by Ren Grey, 07 August 2016 - 05:35 PM.

[Ghostrider0067]

I'm good, Ren. Really. I fully accept it is a game and nothing more. But, as we know, people are people and they all see and take things differently. I'm old enough to know better.

[MacClearly]

Ghostrider0067, on 07 August 2016 - 05:24 PM, said:

You're completely free to disagree. I have no issue with that whatsoever and wholly respect that. I doubt I would get the same respect in return but that's totally fine.

I was being neither disingenuous nor condescending in m statement. Clearly it struck a nerve with you though. Why is that? I made a statement, plain and simple. If I were going to be condescending, it would be clear. I don't dance around or talk in a circle. I have always called it how I felt it to be. You don't have to like it or agree with it. As before, I respect your take all the same.

Finally, your opinion on my skill and my decision to not show my tier makes no mark in my soul. I'm happy either way and win far more than I lose, even while piloting my good ol' Cataphract. I, like you, play to get better. If you don't, what's the point? Who plays to fail and lose?

We can agree to disagree, I guess. I'd much rather they simply did away with the tier thing entirely and just left everyone to their own skill and wits. You get better and learn from playing against better players. That, however, does not necessarily mean that an idea or thought someone had about the game should be ignored based on some arbitrary level though and that was my point the whole time.

Again, nothing personal to you. It was never meant as such. I'd be perfectly happy to take some drops with you sometime should you be interested. Let's leave it with that, no?

Thank you for your permission to disagree with you...

Yet you don't think you are being condescending??? At this point I have to admit you have hit a nerve. Not over us disagreeing with the merits of psr.

I am annoyed that you cannot own the obvious digs you have made regarding having other interests and an outside life. When you barf out statements like; "to someone with an incredibly narrow minded focus who is full of hubris rather than being open to ideas greater than their own, yes, tier is going to matter." it is difficult to digest as anything other than an insult. Admittedly I have said, that given the only tools available to me, it is fair to assess your skills as a player. What you are saying is more of a personal attack. Never heard the term narrow minded being used as a complement.

There is a big difference here that I believe you are missing. I am talking about learning from players who have at least met the minimum bar which I think the Tier system does accomplish. Does a Tier 5 scrub experience count less? In many ways absolutely it does. When players from this Tier screams about the virtues of lrm's on every map, and how this mech and that mech are OP, you're darn tootin' it does. Like it or not, games or sports are led from the top. I played hockey at a pretty competitive level as a kid and we were not following the trends of the East Coast Hockey League.... It was all about what the guys in the NHL were doing. Again this is an incredibly reasonable position. Take a look at the round table that just happened with PGI and who was there. MS, 228, SJR and some more casual units such as the one I am a member of (HHoD).

Finally if there ever came a day where PGI started using herion heavily as an entire organisation, and completey did away with Tiers, as you suggested, the game would fall apart. No Tier 1 player would want to put up with the nonsense that goes on in Tier five. It would drive the better players out and would not be in the least bit fun. It is really unfortunate that you can't grasp this. Imagine having random teams made up of NFL player, college players from every level and high school players all mixed together???

Edited by MacClearly, 07 August 2016 - 06:59 PM.

[ice trey]

MacClearly, on 07 August 2016 - 12:38 PM, said:

It's not unreasonable to use someone's Tier to judge what they are saying.

That's what we call Ad Hominem, though.

[Ghostrider0067]

MacClearly, on 07 August 2016 - 06:57 PM, said:

Thank you for your permission to disagree with you...

You're welcome.

MacClearly, on 07 August 2016 - 06:57 PM, said:

Yet you don't think you are being condescending??? At this point I have to admit you have hit a nerve. Not over us disagreeing with the merits of psr.

I am annoyed that you cannot own the obvious digs you have made regarding having other interests and an outside life. When you barf out statements like; "to someone with an incredibly narrow minded focus who is full of hubris rather than being open to ideas greater than their own, yes, tier is going to matter." it is difficult to digest as anything other than an insult. Admittedly I have said, that given the only tools available to me, it is fair to assess your skills as a player. What you are saying is more of a personal attack. Never heard the term narrow minded being used as a complement.

I see your point and apologize. Yes, that was a bit trite and off putting, but it was less about you and more about the mindset of those who do think in such a fashion. I was trying to take a more fly over viewpoint than a low road approach. In my efforts to explain my point, I slighted you. Again, my apologies. Take them if you will or not. Your call either way.

MacClearly, on 07 August 2016 - 06:57 PM, said:

There is a big difference here that I believe you are missing. I am talking about learning from players who have at least met the minimum bar which I think the Tier system does accomplish. Does a Tier 5 scrub experience count less? In many ways absolutely it does. When players from this Tier screams about the virtues of lrm's on every map, and how this mech and that mech are OP, you're darn tootin' it does. Like it or not, games or sports are led from the top. I played hockey at a pretty competitive level as a kid and we were not following the trends of the East Coast Hockey League.... It was all about what the guys in the NHL were doing. Again this is an incredibly reasonable position. Take a look at the round table that just happened with PGI and who was there. MS, 228, SJR and some more casual units such as the one I am a member of (HHoD).

I understand your perspective and your personal take to it. I guess my point was that it seems that people's opinions are not given any credence whatsoever or are seen as invalid if they are not T1. Is that a legit practice? I think not. We can all learn from each other; it's in the means and the presentation that make the end result worthwhile. Too many do subscribe to an elitist mindset and that is what drew my ire. I honestly don't think that you or I are too far off the underlying principles.

MacClearly, on 07 August 2016 - 06:57 PM, said:

Finally if there ever came a day where PGI started using herion heavily as an entire organisation, and completey did away with Tiers, as you suggested, the game would fall apart. No Tier 1 player would want to put up with the nonsense that goes on in Tier five. It would drive the better players out and would not be in the least bit fun. It is really unfortunate that you can't grasp this. Imagine having random teams made up of NFL player, college players from every level and high school players all mixed together???

I don't necessarily feel it would be as poor as you do, but that's just the ongoing pattern between us. I've seen LOADS of stupidity from all tiers, be it in game or on YouTube. Do the people keep playing? Absolutely. And I fully grasp the concept but don't put as much validity into it as you. Matchmaking isn't a perfect science or concept, but that doesn't mean that great games cannot be had from a mixed bag of skill. It's a shame you can't grasp or accept that.

[MacClearly]

Ghostrider0067, on 07 August 2016 - 07:29 PM, said:

You're welcome.



I see your point and apologize. Yes, that was a bit trite and off putting, but it was less about you and more about the mindset of those who do think in such a fashion. I was trying to take a more fly over viewpoint than a low road approach. In my efforts to explain my point, I slighted you. Again, my apologies. Take them if you will or not. Your call either way.




I understand your perspective and your personal take to it. I guess my point was that it seems that people's opinions are not given any credence whatsoever or are seen as invalid if they are not T1. Is that a legit practice? I think not. We can all learn from each other; it's in the means and the presentation that make the end result worthwhile. Too many do subscribe to an elitist mindset and that is what drew my ire. I honestly don't think that you or I are too far off the underlying principles.



I don't necessarily feel it would be as poor as you do, but that's just the ongoing pattern between us. I've seen LOADS of stupidity from all tiers, be it in game or on YouTube. Do the people keep playing? Absolutely. And I fully grasp the concept but don't put as much validity into it as you. Matchmaking isn't a perfect science or concept, but that doesn't mean that great games cannot be had from a mixed bag of skill. It's a shame you can't grasp or accept that.

LOL.. Well thank you for the apology, but I assure you my grasping skills are quite good.

Obviously I think great games would not be had from a mixed bag... I say this because I have been recently reminded of how bad, and angry, and team killy, and frustrating it is to play in Tier 5 just last weekend. Mistakes are made at every level for sure. No arguements there. There is however a special kind of stupid that happens in Tier 5. This game and others, pool players based on some kinda metric for a reason. Could this game's be tweaked? Certainly. Should it be scrapped? Well, it will never happen and for good reason.

[Ghostrider0067]

Looks like we've finally reached a settling point. At least there's that.

Best wishes.

[COOL HANDS]

Yellonet, on 06 August 2016 - 03:22 PM, said:

I know I've asked for this before when the tier system was introduced, but I still would like it to be introduced.

When the match is over I'd like to see everybody's tier, team mates as well as enemies.
This would work just as in CS:GO where you after a match get too see the rank of all other players, this so that you can judge your own and the teams performance as well as review how the MM set you up.

There is no reason to allow players to hide their tiers when they play the game.
We already have public info on all players (the leaderboard) which could be considered far more sensitive than just the tier.

So, PGI, please make us see everybody's tier after the match!

Why, so higher tier players can troll the lower tier players for their performance on the battlefield?

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

Sure. why the hell not? Im solid tier 3 or I was the last time I played

COOL HANDS, on 07 August 2016 - 10:51 PM, said:

Why, so higher tier players can troll the lower tier players for their performance on the battlefield?

yeah why not lol

Then again those trolls would eventually get banned for name and shame, but Im all for that too

[PhoenixFire55]

I would support the OP message if tiers actually meant anything ...

[Ace Selin]

I think your yearly income should be displayed at the end of each match and also how many mech packs you have purchased.
This is purely to judge peoples relative worth to the game and whether everyone is paying their way with regards to the games wellbeing.