35 replies to this topic

[DieGruneMorder]

This is one of my favorite games, and I really dont want to be a bitchy noob, but the Hopper Scale-up is a ridiculous Nerf that is not only completely unwarranted, but utterly counter-intuitive. All you have to do is press F3 next to an Atlas or Executioner to see how incredibly massive the thing is now! Its a 70 ton mech, its not a Stone Rhino or some 125 ton beast. Give me a break! This need to be fixed ....BADLY! Im sorry for bitching.

Edited by DieGruneMorder, 31 July 2016 - 10:01 PM.

[Thorn Hallis]

It wasn't scaled up to nerf the Chassis, that was just a side effect.

[Sjorpha]

The "reason" behind the upscale was the same as for all other mechs: They implemented volumetric scaling across the board.

It's not going to be scaled down, because that would open the rabbit hole back to scaling by feel.

It might need a buff though, I think it was a mistake to nerf quirks at same time as scaling things up. If it had kept it's quirks intact I think it would've been ok.

[Moonlight Grimoire]

What it could use since it is meant to be a tall 'mech, it is known to be a very tall 'mech in lore, but it is meant to also be wirery and thin which is why it has to be tall (conservation of volume). Yeah it got hurt with nerfs but it is a pretty strong mech due to pure laser vomit ability and good mobility coupled with jump jets. It probably could do with some additional structure like a lot of mechs that got bigger, but, small changes are better than big blind changes when it comes to quirks otherwise you get mechs like the ERPP machinegun Thunderbolt that used to exist due to PGI over did the quirks.

[DieGruneMorder]

Sjorpha, on 31 July 2016 - 10:04 PM, said:

The "reason" behind the upscale was the same as for all other mechs: They implemented volumetric scaling across the board.

It's not going to be scaled down, because that would open the rabbit hole back to scaling by feel.

It might need a buff though, I think it was a mistake to nerf quirks at same time as scaling things up. If it had kept it's quirks intact I think it would've been ok.

By the very principle of volumetric scaling, this mech now looks like an Assault....easy. Do yourself a favor and F3 in one next to an Atlas or Executioner. Its silly how bulky it is, the tall part of the equation isnt the only problem. Its OBVIOUS!!!

Moonlight Grimoire, on 31 July 2016 - 10:06 PM, said:

What it could use since it is meant to be a tall 'mech, it is known to be a very tall 'mech in lore, but it is meant to also be wirery and thin which is why it has to be tall (conservation of volume). Yeah it got hurt with nerfs but it is a pretty strong mech due to pure laser vomit ability and good mobility coupled with jump jets. It probably could do with some additional structure like a lot of mechs that got bigger, but, small changes are better than big blind changes when it comes to quirks otherwise you get mechs like the ERPP machinegun Thunderbolt that used to exist due to PGI over did the quirks.

Yes I agree! If it were MUCH skinnier i wouldnt mind the height so much. Im aware of the lore and thats part of why i like the mech. Its too damn bulky to be that tal....and 70 tons. Give me a break, its sooooooo obvious.

Thorn Hallis, on 31 July 2016 - 10:03 PM, said:

It wasn't scaled up to nerf the Chassis, that was just a side effect.

A LARGE side effect, and proportionately it makes no sense. At those dimensions its heavier than a Stalker.....EASY!

Look at it next to a Timber as well....it will make you laugh out loud.

[El Bandito]

Sure thing. Scale down the Hopper's size and scale down its quirks. Both sides win.

[Carl Vickers]

Height is not that much of an issue, width is an issue. One makes for better peeking and XL survivability the other makes a mech Awesome ;p

Which one do you think the GH has got?

The mech is fine, could use some quirk love but is still good.

Edited by Carl Vickers, 31 July 2016 - 10:38 PM.

[jjm1]

I personally have no problem scaling "by feel". Because machinery doesn't get weighed by volume. Two vehicles can have an identical volume and vastly different weights.

I don't even believe PGI scaled them by volume anyway. Is this Jenner really volumetrically equivalent to 1.75 locusts? I could be wrong but it looks closer to 6x.

[Juodas Varnas]

jjm1, on 01 August 2016 - 12:58 AM, said:

I personally have no problem scaling "by feel". Because machinery doesn't get weighed by volume. Two vehicles can have an identical volume and vastly different weights.

I don't even believe PGI scaled them by volume anyway. Is this Jenner really volumetrically equivalent to 1.75 locusts? I could be wrong but it looks closer to 6x.

Alright.
Now compare... Let's say a Nova (50 tonner) with a... Battlemaster or a Warhawk(85 tonner), you'll see how much that 1,75 times can be.

Edited by Juodas Varnas, 01 August 2016 - 01:02 AM.

[Otto Cannon]

The problem with the Grasshopper isn't size, that would have been fine if it was actually as agile as it's supposed to be. The real problem is that all the tonnage you can put into jump jets adds hardly any survivability with the underpowered hoverfarts we have now.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Juodas Varnas, on 01 August 2016 - 01:01 AM, said:

Alright.
Now compare... Let's say a Nova (50 tonner) with a... Battlemaster or a Warhawk(85 tonner), you'll see how much that 1,75 times can be.

It also assumes uniform density throughout.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Volumetric is nonsense ...all slots have the same space and Volume?!

Small Laser (0.5 t): 1 Slot= each slot 0.5 t
Medium Laser(1t) : 1 Slot =each Slot 1t
PPC(7t) : 3 Slots= each Slot 2.3t
AC5 (8t) 4Slots=each Slot 2t
IS LRM20 (10t) 5Slots=each Slot 2t
AC10 (12t) 7Slots=each Slot 1,7t
AC20 (14t) 10 Slots=each Slot 1.4t
What for a Weight have the Right Arm, and the Left Arm of a Centurion ?! or the Left or right Torso from a Mech with different slots and weapons and by same Space and Volume -Volume have nothing doing with Weight

in Lore the Shadowhawk only 9.6 m Height, the Atlas 16m and one of the tallest Mech, Executioner 15.5m ,Warhammer 12.5m ...now Atlas is F++++20m !!!! Tanks as dangerous Counterparts to Mechs with the Same Weaponsystems now little Dwarfing Toys

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 01 August 2016 - 08:02 PM.

[Juodas Varnas]

Old MW4 Ranger, on 01 August 2016 - 02:25 AM, said:

Volumetric is nonsense ...all slots have the same space and Volume?!

Small Laser (0.5 t): 1 Slot= each slot 0.5 t
Medium Laser(1t) : 1 Slot =each Slot 1t
PPC(7t) : 3 Slots= each Slot 2.3t
AC5 (8t) 4Slots=each Slot 2t
IS LRM20 (10t) 5Slots=each Slot 2t
AC10 (12t) 7Slots=each Slot 1,7t
AC20 (14t) 10 Slots=each Slot 1.4t
What fora Volume and Weight have the Right Arm, and the Left Arm of a Centurion ?! or the Left or right Torso from a Mech with different slots and weapons and same Space and Volume

[El Bandito]

Otto Cannon, on 01 August 2016 - 01:55 AM, said:

The problem with the Grasshopper isn't size, that would have been fine if it was actually as agile as it's supposed to be. The real problem is that all the tonnage you can put into jump jets adds hardly any survivability with the underpowered hoverfarts we have now.

^ This. Current Grasshopper is far cry from the agile beast lore had described.

Quote

With great mobility and a predominately shorter-ranged, energy-based weaponry, the Grasshopper proved itself during the First Succession War. The 'Mech's ground speed of 64.8 km/h was augmented by four Leviathan Lifter jump jets, one pair in each leg, giving it a jumping capability of one hundred and twenty meters. Revolutionary for its time, the appearance of a heavy 'Mech with the mobility of a lighter design caused a change in tactics; the Grasshopper became known for using surprise and speed to appear suddenly in the midst of a tightly-packed lance, a devastating situation should the enemy lack short-ranged weapons themselves.

[ScarecrowES]

Bit of a contradiction here. You can't desperately need a slight change. You can desperately need a significant change, or somewhat need a slight change.

Either the Grasshopper is in a desperate state (it's not), or it's in need of a slight tweak (debatable).

[Bud Crue]

El Bandito, on 01 August 2016 - 04:38 AM, said:

Current Grasshopper is far cry from the agile beast lore had described.

Agree. I have no real issue with the rescale. The monster structure of the 5p is nice, and I get that the others structure quirks were reduced in exchange for the 10%-15% energy heat quirks that the N and H have, but why they felt the need to gut the agility quirks of the J boggles me.

As for a lore based fix, I would give the Hoppers all good agility quirks, bonus lift etc. on their jump jets, and energy weapons quirks that apply only to relatively short ranged weapons (see sarna for description of the hopper and its traditional use of short ranged weaponry).

[Jaeger Gonzo]

Start to view at the world [Redacted] in 3D. Not [Redacted] in 2D. Things will get more clear, trust me.

Its scientific fact that mans have better 3d imagination. Its science and evolution.

Go read something better, they did not learn you that stuff in the school? You know... That there are some basic differences between genders. Some idiots like to see everywhere sexism or racism.

Edited by Jaeger Gonzo, 01 August 2016 - 07:41 PM.
sexism

[FupDup]

PGI didn't just nerf its size; they also nerves its quirks shortly thereafter.

I guess it brings a whole new meaning to the expression, "knee high to a grasshopper."

[davoodoo]

El Bandito, on 01 August 2016 - 04:38 AM, said:

^ This. Current Grasshopper is far cry from the agile beast lore had described.

Ill blame mechlab for that.

Medium mechs like hunchback, centurion or blackjack ran at 65kph without any jumpjets, ofc compared to them grasshopper had superior mobility.

But when you can modify your designs willy nilly and add better engine or even jjs to every mech grasshopper wont be agile.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Jaeger Gonzo, on 01 August 2016 - 05:32 AM, said:

Start to view at the world [Redacted] in 3D. Not [Redacted] in 2D. Things will get more clear, trust me.

Just........wow, there is so much wrong with this statement I can't even......

FupDup, on 01 August 2016 - 06:16 AM, said:

PGI didn't just nerf its size; they also nerves its quirks shortly thereafter.

I guess it brings a whole new meaning to the expression, "knee high to a grasshopper."

I'm pretty sure they nerfed it because it was a notorious IS heavy laser boat which apparently they wanted to nerf in oblivion (even though they left the 5P which is now easily the best Hopper).

Edited by draiocht, 01 August 2016 - 10:22 AM.
Quote Clean-Up (sexism)