36 replies to this topic

[Mazzyplz]

whatever needs to be done to make sense of a heat scale that does not spike and you have to play thinking of the number 30 in your head.

you shouldn't have to be thinking of ANY NUMBER.

if there's tweaks needed to be done in range-cooldown or any other areas to normalize the heat among the weapons then that's a good approach as far as i am concerned

and that's what should be best

instead of this system which forces noobs to memorize that 30 is the limit of damage they can do

that's the type of thing that makes people try the game and think its just badly made.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Mazzyplz, on 10 August 2016 - 08:43 PM, said:

whatever needs to be done to make sense of a heat scale that does not spike and you have to play thinking of the number 30 in your head.

you shouldn't have to be thinking of ANY NUMBER.

if there's tweaks needed to be done in range-cooldown or any other areas to normalize the heat among the weapons then that's a good approach as far as i am concerned

and that's what should be best

instead of this system which forces noobs to memorize that 30 is the limit of damage they can do

that's the type of thing that makes people try the game and think its just badly made.

With any system your gonna have to be aware of what the limit is,heatscale or not.

[Gas Guzzler]

El Bandito, on 10 August 2016 - 08:34 PM, said:

PTS is gonna be fun then. Assuming people would actually DL it and play on it, instead of forum-warrioring.

Provided im not in Guadalajara for work when they run the PTS, I will definite play it and lay down as much feedback as I can, don't you worry.

[Mazzyplz]

point is no matter if navid1 likes it or not.

the heat will be normalized to 30 damage across all weapons with a heat spike - sooner or later but it's in the pipeline.

what i propose is only a little bit different, without the spike.

it ruins the new player experience that they even have to consider a spike in heat.
just do away with it. rebalance heat mapped to damage like pgi wants but please no heat spike

[Mister Blastman]

Gas Guzzler, on 10 August 2016 - 08:04 PM, said:

God forbid we have balance right?

To hell with balance, just make sure laser boats are useless, it'll be great for the game

And uh, the only "toy" im worried about is the Executioner. I know, such a meta ***** I am.

I know, right? All hell is breaking loose because people are skeered!

Don't play much these days anyways. I've got my sunglasses on, I'm ready to kick back and watch the world burn.



On my island. Let it burn!

Edited by Mister Blastman, 10 August 2016 - 09:17 PM.

[Mazzyplz]

Mister Blastman, on 10 August 2016 - 09:04 PM, said:

I know, right? All hell is breaking loose because people are skeered!

Don't play much these days anyways. I've got my sunglasses on, I'm ready to kick back and watch the world burn.

On my island. Let it burn!

wow you must be some sort of savant who can't see the obvious

okay, imagine energy draw is not coming ok?

in current game; the spike from ghostheat is stupid. we should get rid of it.

now imagine we are implementing energy draw ok?

the spike in energy draw heat is stupid, we should get rid of it.


what i am saying has literally 0% to do with energy draw itself.

even if it was or wasn't coming the spike in heat is not an intuitive design for a game. it's bad game design to ask that your player remember arbitrary conditions such as the number of weapons they can trigger or the number of damage they can do

i am saying we should make the system intuitive

reasoning much?

Edited by Mazzyplz, 10 August 2016 - 09:28 PM.

[Kangarad]

no. this is no good. same heat ? for the same damage on way les range? why bring ballistics with a slower firate when you can just spam lasers and not worry about ammo then?

[Alex Morgaine]

El Bandito, on 10 August 2016 - 08:34 PM, said:

PTS is gonna be fun then. Assuming people would actually DL it and play on it, instead of forum-warrioring.

Exactly. Who is going to actually try the PTS or just B&M about the new system?
Well, art least we ain't have GH2.0 long. 2.1 a-gogo!

[xengk]

BLOOD WOLF, on 10 August 2016 - 08:03 PM, said:

no there hasnt been a sing word on it yet.

Might as well call this the Sandpit effect. making a thread about something and drawing definite conclusions about an item we have no good info to go off on.

Ah, one of these forum thread then.
And I thought I overlook a command chair post.

[Old-dirty B]

Mazzyplz, on 10 August 2016 - 07:31 PM, said:

the heat scale system coming up is more intuitive but works in a similar way to ghost heat as it is present in the game now.

your weapons have a heat that they produce - and if you go over that magical number in this case 30 damage (in ghost heat case it depends on the weapon, lets say 3 ppc cause ppc is 10 dmg)
you say OH NOES I WENT OVER TEH MAGICAL RANDOM NUMBAR
and the heat comes out of nowhere and overheats you and you EXPLODE.

but here's my question - why do we not use this opportunity to balance weapons' heat by damage so that 30 damage of all weapons look alike!!!

instead of magical barriers, why not change the heat so that:

3 ppc damage = SOME HEAT
2x gauss = the same ammount of heat!
6 medlas = the same ammount of heat!


and just balance the BASE heat of the weapons like this again. into a new weapons heat scale
that actually MAKES SENSE.

it doesn't matter that these weapons are best at different ranges, lets make them pay the same heat for the same damage! (except for ER weapons)

cause lets be honest the cooldown for the different weapons is already different according to their range, and your positioning has to be different also. let's get rid of these magic barrier heat spikes

you are overlooking what the heat rate for each weapon does / means.


Heat determines how much damage can be outputted over an extended time frame. Ghost heat 2.0 determines how much damage can be outputted in a single alpha. If you exceed the damage threshold (30) you will be penatalised through excessive heat build up or in other words the total ammount of damage you can output in a similar time frame.

For example; The erppc is a relatively "cheap" (in terms of weight) alternative to the gaus, it comes with a price though and that is heat. In that perspective you can see a gauss can be used much more often considering its low heat where the erppc will be at the max much sooner. In this example the weight of the gauss is ballanced by the heat of the erppc. If they would have the same heat value the erppc would be the clear winner...

Anyway, you cant just take away or set all weapons to the same base heat value as it is being used to ballance weight, ammo, damage and so on.

Edited by B3R3ND, 11 August 2016 - 02:19 AM.

[Mazzyplz]

however i said they should not have exactly the same heat, just as close as you can get away with.
so we can have a linear scale.

i still think ac10, srms, lbx and other weapons should have lower heat but not anything dramatic.

if the heat is used to balance weight, ammo damage. you can fix that by balancing those from scratch against each other.
it's quite a bit of work but it's a better design

Edited by Mazzyplz, 11 August 2016 - 04:16 PM.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

no, its called power draw right, so if you put a bigger engine in you should get more power. right?!

[Pjwned]

Mazzyplz, on 10 August 2016 - 07:31 PM, said:

but here's my question - why do we not use this opportunity to balance weapons' heat by damage so that 30 damage of all weapons look alike!!!

instead of magical barriers, why not change the heat so that:

3 ppc damage = SOME HEAT
2x gauss = the same ammount of heat!
6 medlas = the same ammount of heat!

Probably because that's an absolutely terrible balancing method that completely ignores various other factors like DPS, burn time, weapon range, and in the case of gauss rifles they now suddenly have massively increased heat for firing 2 of them on top of all the other drawbacks they have already.

Holy **** this is a bad idea, god damn...one of the worst I've seen in months. OP should feel bad for their extremely awful idea.

[Cy Mitchell]

Mazzyplz, on 10 August 2016 - 07:31 PM, said:

the heat scale system coming up is more intuitive but works in a similar way to ghost heat as it is present in the game now.

your weapons have a heat that they produce - and if you go over that magical number in this case 30 damage (in ghost heat case it depends on the weapon, lets say 3 ppc cause ppc is 10 dmg)
you say OH NOES I WENT OVER TEH MAGICAL RANDOM NUMBAR
and the heat comes out of nowhere and overheats you and you EXPLODE.

but here's my question - why do we not use this opportunity to balance weapons' heat by damage so that 30 damage of all weapons look alike!!!

instead of magical barriers, why not change the heat so that:

3 ppc damage = SOME HEAT
2x gauss = the same ammount of heat!
6 medlas = the same ammount of heat!


and just balance the BASE heat of the weapons like this again. into a new weapons heat scale
that actually MAKES SENSE.

it doesn't matter that these weapons are best at different ranges, lets make them pay the same heat for the same damage! (except for ER weapons)

cause lets be honest the cooldown for the different weapons is already different according to their range, and your positioning has to be different also. let's get rid of these magic barrier heat spikes

Honestly, no one outside of PGI and a few testers knows how the new Anti-Alpha system is going to work. It is all speculation thrown in with some fear mongering by certain individuals. We will get to test the system on the PTS and give feedback prior to it going live. Hopefully there will be some open minded individuals involved in the testing and feedback to offset the individuals who have already made their mind up that the system is bad without knowing any details about it or trying it out.

[Andi Nagasia]

sorry OP but i dont think that idea will go over well,
people already complain that this is barely a BattleTech Game, barely a MechWarrior Game,
i dont think moving that much father from the Source Material will be well received in this case,

[Angel of Annihilation]

BLOOD WOLF, on 10 August 2016 - 08:00 PM, said:

Works similar to ghost heat? where did you hear that. People keep repeating it but nowhere is that substantiated

It sounds like it is going to be exactly like ghost heat except it will be tied to damage not individual weapons. It is actually ghost heat on a epic scale.

Ghost heat came about to prevent people from being able to boat too many weapons of the same kind ie, using two AC20 to fire 40 pin point damage was thought to be OP so apply ghost heat to "discourage" anyone from firing two at once and you eliminate someone being able to do 40 points of pin-point damage with a single trigger pull.

Power draw on the other hand attempts to accomplish the same things only instead of preventing a person from boating individual types of weapons, it effects all weapons and is designed to discourage each and every mech no matter the size or configuration from firing weapons that produce more than 30 points of damage in a single trigger pull or alpha.

In essence it works to standardize each and every mech so the maximum you damage you can actually sustain is 30 damage per alpha basically making every mech, from a 20 ton light to a 100 ton assault "Equal" is its power to alpha strike without suffering excessive heat penalties.

The problem is, when you have a mech like say the Direwolf which very its very design is supposed to be able to mount massive amounts of firepower and deliver punishing amounts of damage quickly, limited to only being able to deliver 30 damage without instantly overheating despite having the ability to mount 50+ tons of weapons and equipment, what the heck is the point of piloting a Direwolf?

It is also going to be especially punishing on Clan mechs because they use weapons with much higher damage output (at the cost of heat) than IS weapons. Basically clan weapons are not only hotter in the first place but you will be able to fire less of them before reaching the ghost heat power draw is going to apply.

An IS ER LL is 9 damage at 8 heat meaning you could fire 3 IS ER LLs doing 27 damage and not suffer "Power Draw" Your heat would be 24 in this case.

An C ER LL is 11 damage at 10 heat meaning you have two choices.

One, you could fire only 2 which would do only 22 damage and ONLY be at 20 heat, which is darn near as hot as the 3 IS ER LLs anyway while outputting much less damage.

Two you could fire 3 which would give you 33 damage and before "Power Draw" would only net you 30 heat (which is massively hotter than the IS version anyway). However with "Power Draw" because you has exceeded 30 points in one shot, that extra 3 points of damage will spike your heat by a as of yet, undetermined, amount of heat. Therefore instead of the already excessively hot 30 heat, you may actually suffer ghost heat that pushes you to 35 or 40 heat because of the penalty for firing over 30 damage at a time.

Then on top of all this doggydoo, if you mount weapons that combined can do over 30 points of damage, your going to have to preform mental gymnastics trying to keep straight how much damage each weapon you have pressed the button for can do so as to not accidentally spike your heat by clicking one too many buttons.

Don't get me wrong, there are probably some work arounds. For example if my Spirit Bear mounts 2 LPL, 1 UAC 20 and 2 SRM 6s, I can make sure that my groups are always split so that each button press will never fire more than 30 points of weapons and make sure to train myself to pause between clicks but there are alot of builds that are going to totally come cashing down. For example, want to run 3 SRM6s in your Atlas? Well your screwed if you try to "splat" with them all at once because at 36 damage, your going to spike your heat. How about run dual LRM20s on your Catapult? Better not ever fire both at once our your spiking your heat.

Anyway, I will have to see how the implement it in practice but from what I have heard so far, it seems like a massive cluster flock of a system to me.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 11 August 2016 - 06:53 PM.

[Pjwned]

Well, apparently PGI liked this horrible idea because this is what we're looking at on the PTS.