30 replies to this topic

[Hunka Junk]

Is there a rhyme or reason to the way variants get coded?

For example, what is the 2C is a BLR-2C?

What's the MX90 in a MAL-MX90?

I know some are abbreviations, like PB for Pirates Bane, but is there some overall coding strategy that determines what letters and numbers each variant gets?

[jss78]

A lot of the time the letters refer to the house which commissioned that variant.

Phoenix Hawk PXH-1D = Davion variant.
Griffin GRF-1S = Steiner
Shadow Hawk SHD-2K = Kuritan.
Crusader CRD-3L (and 7L, 8L) = Liao
BattleMaster BLR-3M = Marik.

But I think there are lots of exceptions which don't follow this.

If the number itself increases, it's just a new evolution of the basic design. E.g. Shadow Hawk 1 was an 2400's early design predating the widespread use of the 'mech. 2's are the classic 2500's designs. 3's, 5's, 7's etc. came with the recovery of "lostech" and further new technologies, starting in 3040's.

If there's a lower-case b (e.g. Phoenix Hawk PXH-1b, Crab CRB-27b), it's an advanced-technology variant commissioned for the elite "Royal" units of the Star League.

A DC suffix (e.g. Atlas AS7-D-DC) indicates a command 'mech, I think these always have the command console.

Some of the guys here with incredible BT lore-fu will probably expand on this.

Edited by jss78, 13 August 2016 - 07:50 AM.

[Spike Brave]

jss78, on 13 August 2016 - 03:28 AM, said:

A lot of the time the letters refer to the house which commissioned that variant.

Phoenix Hawk PXH-1D = Davion variant.
Griffin GRF-1S = Steiner
Shadow Hawk SHD-2K = Kuritan.
Crusader CRD-3L (and 7L, 8L) = Liao
BattleMaster BLR-3M = Marik.

But I think there are lots of exceptions which don't follow this.

If the number itself increases, it's just a new evolution of the basic design. E.g. Shadow Hawk 1 was an 2400's early design predating the widespread use of the 'mech. 2's are the classic 2500's designs. 3's, 5's, 7's etc. came with the recovery of "lostech" and further new technologies, starting in 3040's.

If there's a lower-case b (e.g. Phoenix Hawk PXH-1b, Crab CRB-27b), it's an advanced-technology variant commissioned for the elite "Royal" units of the Star League.

A DC suffix (e.g. Atlas AS7-D-DC) indicates a command 'mech, I think these always have the command console.

Some of the guys here with incredible BT lore-fu will probably expand on this.

This is correct and a very good description. I just wanted add a couple things with my lore-fu. I've a got couple of thing about IS mechs and some for Clans.

The captail C in the BLR-2C is for Com Guard units. Anything with a captail X is experimental. So the MAL-MX90 was the prototype and was actually called the Daboku. It was a first run for the DCMS to test Star League tech recovered from the Helm memory core and didn't do well. They changed the name to Mauler, which is the FedCom reporting name, to distance it from the failed prototype. IS Mechs with a bunch of numbers, like the Highlander and King Crab variants, mean it was a standard Mech in the SLDF.

Rarely you'll see a Mech where the first three letters don't come from the name of the BattleMech. This is because the Mech is a modified chassis, which is what these letters reference. For example, the Katana of the DCMS is CRK-5003-2 is a refit of the SLDF Crockett.

Clans are a bit different. In lore they do not use the three letter chassis designation. They just use the name of the Mech and word Prime to designate an OmniMech in a standard configuration or a letter to designate a non-standard configuration. For example, Timberwolf Prime is the standard config of this OmniMech and Timberwolf S is a non-standard config and would not include the TBR like we have in the UI. For BattleMechs it the name followed by a number and again without the shorted prefix. So it's Kodiak 3 without the KBK.

I believe the break form lore about Clan names conventions is a game design issue. I don't blame them for not wanting deal with two different naming conventions in the database and UI. It'd be a lot of extra work for little gain.

[Raubwurst]

Some people's lore-fu... unbelievable...

Again: something new learned (and highly interesting), thanks to both of you!

Edited by Raubwurst, 13 August 2016 - 10:24 AM.

[Koniving]

Hunka Junk, on 13 August 2016 - 02:40 AM, said:

Is there a rhyme or reason to the way variants get coded?

For example, what is the 2C is a BLR-2C?

What's the MX90 in a MAL-MX90?

I know some are abbreviations, like PB for Pirates Bane, but is there some overall coding strategy that determines what letters and numbers each variant gets?

"N" Star League (but likely not accepted; example being the Scorpion 1N. Built at the start of the Star League era, commissioned by them, and it wasn't 'liked' and so it was rare.)
"X" Experimental, doesn't matter who made it. For example the BJ-1X is the experimental variant of Blackjack, the prototype, before the BJ-1 and BJ-1DC (dual cockpit).

"C" denotes Comstar. (Also note the AS7-C is "newer" than AS7-D, AS7-D-DC, AS7-RS, AS7-K and the AS7-S. The "C" is actually the complete version of the K which the K was rushed out the door due to time constraints and need.)
(Those are Davion, Davion-Dual Cockpit, Rassalhague, Kurita and Steiner respectively). Note: The variant name denotes who commissioned the variant's configuration (paid the company to remodel their product to those specifications.) So while X faction commissioned the design, anyone might happen to have it through purchase, salvage or theft.)
(The AS7-S2 is a second model commissioned by Steiner. The AS8-D is the Davion's next generation of Atlas. It goes up to AS10 if I'm not mistaken, and this means that there were generations of Atlases, whether experimental or otherwise, preceding the AS7 series.)

Any 'Mech with the designation "M" at the end, is a Marik design. You may notice that almost 100% of Marik designs will include DHS and an XL engine. This is because for the four Succession Wars, Marik barely participated in any of them. Throughout the early Clan invasion, Marik sells XL engines and DHS to the other factions. And while not as rich as Lyran (Steiner) forces, Marik enjoys some of the best living conditions, health care, etc. that a person could even dream about.
---
If factions were to include actual lore-friendly faction bonuses and traits, you'd make 50% more money as a Steiner. As a Davion, autocannon prices as well as R&R would be really cheap (and lasers would be a strain on your budget). Liao would only send 2-4 person attack teams to infiltrate enemy bases viva la Snake (Metal Gear), and the enemy would almost never know Liao was there until trying to ship their units or attack... only for everything to go wrong. (Liao Defense would consist entirely of new, inexperienced players.... roughly double to triple the ratio to attacking players, and every time a 'Mech goes down quite literally any Liao -- military or civilian -- will leap into the 'Mech and bring it right back to its feet. Liao defender 'Mechs have been compared to zombies multiple times, to the point that Battletech coined the phrase Zombie 'Mech in the 90s due to Liao defenders). Oh and Liao would also have the only ECM initially and other factions would have to steal it.

Quite a list of stuff, actually.

If you see a letter designation you can't think of an explanation for, ask me. If I don't know it I can find it.

Edited by Koniving, 13 August 2016 - 11:17 AM.

[JC Daxion]

Ok, how about the G? Or 4SP in the case of HBK's

[Spike Brave]

JC Daxion, on 13 August 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:

Ok, how about the G? Or 4SP in the case of HBK's

Not sure if it's been reconned but some of my really old CityTech stuff says it's about the role of the Mech. The HBK-G was for Garrison duty and the SP was the SRM Platform.

[Koniving]

JC Daxion, on 13 August 2016 - 12:11 PM, said:

Ok, how about the G? Or 4SP in the case of HBK's

Hunchbacks have always been considered general use. Garrison sounds quite fitting, HBK-4G and HBKs in general are urban defensive 'Mechs, they are not meant for attacking on the battlefield. "Guard" is another possibility, as there has been mention of 4Gs being used to escort important vehicles.

Consider the HBK 4G's armor (320, or 160 in BT) is exceptionally high for a 50 tonner. It is higher or equal to some 65 ton 'Mechs, significantly higher than anything short of the 5th generation Shadowhawks, and higher than every Centurion except the AL. (Which I'm not sure what the A or AL are, other than Centurions are general use 'Mechs too).

SP is a Periphery redesign of the Hunchback, it could stand for "Special" or "Southern Periphery" or relate to a specific uncommon faction as the periphery are filled with minor factions.

[JC Daxion]

interesting.. I never really gave it much thought to why mechs were named what they are... Kinda neat!

[Koniving]

Dang it lost what I had.

If memory serves me the 4SP is not and cannot be made at factories. It is unknown to me who originally made one but since Hunchbacks that get decommissioned or left unclaimed as military salvage wind-up being sold often "as is" on the market for private/periphery use, the Hunchbacks are often found with damage to the right torso as it houses most of the weapon systems. Sometimes the left torso due to the ammunition drum being hit/totalled. It was a Hunchback with both common forms of unrepairable damage that the 4SP was built from. This later became a marketable "Refit kit". In Battletech buying refit kits gets all the parts, instructions, etc. to make the design in question and is often more affordable than separately buying and shipping the parts, as well as quicker than trying to come up with how to do it from scratch. This is why Swaybacks are popular, and all non-"G" variants of the 4th generation are refit kits. In fact none of them are made in factories since Nissan General Industries collapsed in the succession wars.

Kali-Yama acquired the rights (and knowledge of how) to build Hunchbacks and commissioned by Marik, produced the 5M, an upgrade to the 4G... it's problems caused them to correct these in the 6M.

Several 5th gen models were built and due to popular demand in 3046 or close to it Kali-Yama also began officially producing the "refit" Swaybacks. It is unmentioned but it is likely there were lawsuits against and from the makers of the refit kits.

The "newer" 4Gs and all newly Kali-Yama produced Hunchbacks, all looked "a little different" from the Hunchbacks of old. "Instead of the Komiyabi chassis these newer 'Mechs use a Crucis Type V chassis while the Tomodzuru autocannon and Ichiba medium lasers were replaced with Kali Yama Big Bore and Hellion-V models."

So an entirely new skeleton had reshaped them slightly. The lack of either willingness or cheap availability of the original ultra-high caliber 5-shot Tomodzuru 180mm was replaced. This had merits and drawbacks. The FLD delivery of the Tomodzuru allowed better urban pop-and-shoot tactics compared to the replacement "Kali-Yama Big Bore." The Kali-Yama Big Bore is a 120mm standard caliber (cheap, common ammo) delivers a burst of 3 shots per second but required 4 bursts to match the Tomodzuru's effectiveness dealt in far less time. The difference in front-loaded heat and faster cassette (magazine) changing helped alleviate concerns about it. Often those comparing it mention how it was nice to not sweat to death; pilots already had to drive older HBKs wearing little more than underwear and cooling vest, cooling boots and cooling gloves.

The Hellion-V lasers made up for the AC's lack of FLD to a point by being more front loaded than the old Ichiba medium lasers. Ichiba lasers were better suited for fighting vehicles and infantry due to the fact that their lower output allowed them to fire more frequently or to be set to long-beam mode to "slash" infantry threats by streaking lasers across the field or building windows. As such, the Kali-Yama built Hunchbacks required some 'getting used to' compared to the tried-and-true Nissan General Industry originals.

The classic mechs of Battletech are super rich in lore that goes well beyond the tabletop...and sadly tabletop can't account for it all (can you imagine having to keep track of stats for 60+ standard IS medium laser variants? Even I can't do that, I just keep track of the coolest ones. Rassal Blue Beam is an awesome medium laser. Downfall is when fired it will cause your screens to shut off for a second or two if you fired two at a time! Then again, it is supposedly the most "front-loaded" of all the medium lasers, so strong the beam is blue and in the blink of an eye it does slightly more than half the damage of a large laser, compressed in a single ton. ...It also has poor cooling jackets (excess heat), needs 8 seconds to recharge or the laser will break, causes electromagnetic interference in both the user and the target, and produces all 4 units of heat (rather than 3) all at once (rather than gradually). Firing 3 of them is more intense (heat-wise) than firing a PPC, which for some can be traumatic and stressful due to the sudden heat rise.

Makes for a fun experience. Heh.

-------

Edit: "Mario"? Damn android tablet autocorrect. Fixed. Commissioned by Marik or as properly named the Free Worlds League.

Side note: To give a hint as to actual Hunchback scale and for a large reason why there's even a 'hunch' in the first place.... The Hunchback is known for being a rather squat design, akin to the Dragon. Short for its size and weight. In fact the 'Mech has the unfortunate issue that its ammunition could not even fit inside the 'Mech itself! (This also explains why even the Marik-commissioned '5M' upgrade to the 4G, when considering that the Mariks shove XL engines into 'Everything' on two, three, or four legs... No seriously they shove XL engines into every single 'Mech they can. Anyway it explains why the 5 series does not use XL engines at all despite it being in an age where XL engines started appearing all over the Inner Sphere, the 'Mech was simply too small). So, the Hunchbacks instead carried their ammunition inside a drum on the left torso.

The 4SP refit, due to the damage on the original Hunchback it was first performed on, opted to create a new kind of drum and attach it to the rear center torso as a drum-shaped backpack.

The 5th generation (or "5 series" or "5th" line of) Hunchbacks are slightly bigger than 4th Gen HBKs and are able to use "Light" engines which are smaller than Extra Light engines. The 6th generation Hunchbacks are made a little larger so that they could use XL engines and fit some of the ammunition inside the 'Mech itself. The 6M (or 6N?) manages a total of 5 tons of ammo when the old 4th gens could only hold 2 tons of ammo, and the 5th gen was only able to hold a single ton of ammo.

It is noteworthy that the HBK-2 was taller and skinnier than the 4th gen HBKs. As such, the HBK II-Cs are also 'slightly' taller than 4th gen HBKs. The thinner aspect is lost however despite the weaker armor, due to the internal equipment and the Endo-Steel.

Sadly the amount of nerding and obsession over Hunchbacks it takes to know all that is more than I'd ever expect (or hope to expect) the devs to have done. o.o;

(Second edit: Some word corrections and what-not.)

Edited by Koniving, 14 August 2016 - 12:11 PM.

[Raubwurst]

Next request:
What is with the
- Archer 5W
- CP-11-A
- CP-10-Q
- CP-10-Z

[JC Daxion]

@kon

Dude, PGI needs to higher you as a Lore consultant for a Pve campaign, and i'd bet it wouldn't hurt HBS as well!

[S 0 L E N Y A]

Note: there are no hard and fast rules for suffix interpretation. Lot of good rules of thumb in this thread but as usual there are exceptions.

Black Knight 7L, for example is a FWL variant, not Liao.

JC Daxion, on 14 August 2016 - 01:05 PM, said:

@kon

Dude, PGI needs to higher you as a Lore consultant for a Pve campaign, and i'd bet it wouldn't hurt HBS as well!

HBS has one of the guys that invented Battletech working with them, so I think they are good on that front.

[Koniving]

JC Daxion, on 14 August 2016 - 01:05 PM, said:

@kon

Dude, PGI needs to higher you as a Lore consultant for a Pve campaign, and i'd bet it wouldn't hurt HBS as well!

HBS trumps me on lore.
It's run by the guy who created Battletech and then sold the franchise soon after Microsoft bought the rights to make Mechwarrior Games, and not being able to get around it by going to EA and building Multiplayer Battletech 3025.

PGI isn't big enough to really be able to factor lore into MWO in a meaningful way. It is still less than 100 employees altogether.

[Spike Brave]

Raubwurst, on 14 August 2016 - 12:46 PM, said:

Next request:
What is with the
- Archer 5W
- CP-11-A
- CP-10-Q
- CP-10-Z

Archer-5W is the Wolf's Dragoon's designed model. There are several Mechs with this designation from TRO 3050 and they are usually produced by Blackwell Industries.

Cyclops are wierd. Star League Mechs so that's why the chassis letters followed by number. No reason given for it having only two letters other than it was a headquarters unit. Last letter is used to designate battlefield role possibly. HQ was the dedicated command unit. Q was long range. A was a refit with a guass instead of an AC 20. Z had dual cockpits. The only one in there that makes any sense base on role is the HQ for headquarters. It's also an older design used only by the SLDF before the Succession Wars. The primary factor was destroyed durning the Armis Civil war and during the current MWO timeline no one makes new ones. I have source books for the Great Houses and Mercs between 3025 and 3055, but nothing for the Terran Hegemony, so I'm not primed on thier military.

[Koniving]

All I have on the Terran Hegemony is in the RPG books, references in TRO and other manuals.
Mech Factory, usually good for unusual info on them, has nothing on Cyclops as for why the name format is chosen. It does note that yhere is a variant with a command vehicle module, or vehicle that detaches from the Cyclop's upper rear body and can set up in 15 mins.

That is all I have.

[Domenoth]

Koniving, on 13 August 2016 - 11:15 AM, said:

BJ-1DC (dual cockpit).

Don't think DC means Dual Cockpit in this case (like it does for AS7-D-DC). There is a BJ-1DB so I think here it's just the third or so Davion variant.

[Raubwurst]

Thanks to both of you :>

[Koniving]

Domenoth, on 14 August 2016 - 09:38 PM, said:

Don't think DC means Dual Cockpit in this case (like it does for AS7-D-DC). There is a BJ-1DB so I think here it's just the third or so Davion variant.

You're correct, actually. In this case it is using "Davion-Bulldog, Davion-Charlie" for distinction. Also while never detailed, there was a BJ-1D aka BJ1-Davion-Able but the first idea they had to improve the BJ1 evidently flopped since it was never even worth detailing.

Kind of like the Guardian Police Security Mech, this 15 ton mech exists but the only loose description hinting at its equipment was the "Guardian" police squadron loosely mentioned as background radio chatter, where a pilot's thoughts detail that "each of them had 15 machine guns.". Some serious weaponry for a 15 ton mech. Problem is since it is such an off reference and can just be the name of the squadron, we really don't know what Guardians are armed with or even what speed they travel at. We can only assume it has commercial-grade armor or military-grade armor. And what does a police mech need with 15 freaking machine guns?! MGs might only do 2 damage in a 10 second time slice but they are far from so worthless as to need so many.

Side note: digging more into Blackjacks, I have come across a little more. This may be erroneous as Megamek doesn't support it, but Mech Factory lists the BJ-1X (experimental, prototype) as having lower arm actuators before settling on the final Mini-Jagermech design.

Also fun...
A bit of the BJ mechanics. Notice how the stock ammo is CT? It's a pretty small looking mech, right? Anti-insurgency, so it is meant to mainly fight infantry and vehicles so it doesn't need to be big. Even so it has just as much armor as the Centurion A. So that small, decent engine and yet carries ammo in the CT?

Forgive me but on Android.
Anyway. See the trademark hollahoop on every Blackjack?
This is actually the ballistic ammo feed and storage, which stem from the center torso, splits out to each shoulder, and from there loops inside the shoulder paldron/flares where it then feeds into the autocannons. If this were a simulation, you'd need to aim for those to get an ammo explosion. I also imagine that is where the body's armor might be particularly thick too in order to prevent that.

Edited by Koniving, 15 August 2016 - 07:13 AM.

[Metus regem]

Koniving, on 15 August 2016 - 06:56 AM, said:

You're correct, actually. In this case it is using "Davion-Bulldog, Davion-Charlie" for distinction. Also while never detailed, there was a BJ-1D aka BJ1-Davion-Alpha but the first idea they had to improve the BJ1 evidently flopped since it was never even worth detailing.

Kind of like the Guardian Police Security Mech, this 15 ton mech exists but the only loose description hinting at its equipment was the "Guardian" police squadron loosely mentioned as background radio chatter, where a pilot's thoughts detail that "each of them had 15 machine guns.". Some serious weaponry for a 15 ton mech. Problem is since it is such an off reference and can just be the name of the squadron, we really don't know what Guardians are armed with or even what speed they travel at. We can only assume it has commercial-grade armor or military-grade armor. And what does a police mech need with 15 freaking machine guns?! MGs might only do 2 damage in a 10 second time slice but they are far from so worthless as to need so many.

Maybe they need 15 of them (at 7.5t total, 50% of the weight of a 15t mech no less..), to blow out entire floors of office buildings if there are insurgences hiding inside? Never know what those WoB types are upto...


Side note, I head an interesting theory a while ago, that the schism between ComStar and WoB, was a cover for ComStar to seize more power over the IS.