67 replies to this topic

[Requiemking]

So, having played both Clans and IS and getting some experience, I am getting the feeling that IS holds the advantage when it comes to weapons performance. From my experience, in this game Burst damage is infinitely better than DPS, and there is no greater disparity in this than in weapons performances. Each side holds advantages, yes, but I feel the Clan advantages of range, ROF on their ACs, and Damage on their lasers are, at the moment, meaningless, especially in CW.

The problem stems from the fact that the current meta favours the IS advantages of cluster-fired missiles, single slug ACs, and short duration lasers. So, if we want to even things out, neither side should hold so many of the meta advantages. So, here is how I think these advantages should be doled out.

IS gets the single slug ballistics.

Clans get the shorter duration Lasers.

Both sides get cluster fire missiles.

I feel this would even the playing field, as the meta advantages no longer sit with one side exclusively. If we want to go one step further, we could add a "nominal count" system as a replacement for Ghost heat. What this would do is actually surprisingly simple. Basically, if you fire more than X number of weapons of the same type in a single salvo, the additional weapons will not deal any additional damage, they will merely add more heat. So, for example, it would be a bad move to fire more than six MLs in a single salvo, as the additional MLs provide nothing beyond additional heat. Basically, it is spreading the CERPPC nerf to all the other weapons. If ell this would help restrict the LOLAlpha builds that have pretty much taken over the game. I feel these would help encourage variety, but if you feel otherwise, please do say so in the comments below.

Edited by Requiemking, 14 August 2016 - 08:37 PM.

[RestosIII]

I still think both sides should have the burst ACs. But I'm still holding out for LBX ammo switching, so I dream of the impossible.

Also, spooky damage is one of the dumbest things I've ever seen someone propose. That's terrible. No.

Edited by RestosIII, 14 August 2016 - 08:43 PM.

[Ghostrider0067]

RestosIII, on 14 August 2016 - 08:42 PM, said:

...But I'm still holding out for LBX ammo switching, so I dream of the impossible.

Yeah, no. That's never coming.

[LLMbenny]

I will say Both factions have their strength and weakness.
For example
LPL
a very popular weapon of choice on heavies and assaults
IS:
lower duration - 40% lower compares to clans LPL- more focus damage
can fire up to 3 LPLs without breaking the ghost heat
more heat effection compares to clans LPL
Clans:
longer range - fexible
require less tonnages and slots
Or we can take the LRMs
IS:
cool down faster - higher DPS
more impulse(screen shake)
Clans:
require less tonnages and slots
Can do damage under 180M

[kesmai]

Meta has/is changing from pinpoint/fld to a mix of dps/pfld at the moment, the clan uacs have a advantage there. Due to lower weapon weight the clan mechs have better options to mix.
IS has a definte advantage with energy hitscan weapons considering burntime/heat/damage.
I'd say the balance is quite good atm.

[Dfeeds]

I've been feeling the same way, duration wise. I started as clan and started buying some IS mechs to change it up and, despite the (sometimes) significantly lower alpha, I do so much more damage. It's so much easier to focus with the low duration. Although, I've started changing my mind set and it actually balances out.

Going for example, let's look at the medium pulse laser. The IS is 6 damage for 5 heat with a... .6 duration? at 220 m or so. The last two numbers are probably off. Now for 4 of them you get 24 damage at 20 heat for in between range. The clan mpl is 8 damage for 6 heat with a .85 duration at 300m ish. 4 of them, for the same tonnage, is 25 heat for 32 damage. Nice firepower but wayyy too hot for some mechs. But, if we use 3, we get the 24 damage with 18 heat and better range. So, looking at it like this, it kinda makes sense. I can use 3 for the same damage, less heat, better range, and save 2 tons in exchange for a higher duration.


So to a certain degree it does help. Clan gets a tonnage savings and a range boost to get a few more shots in before the close. However, I feel some of that is mitigated because IS mechs have a lot of structure buffs to offset the higher damage. That aspect there, in my opinion, gives IS the advantage.

I still prefer IS because the focus fire takes people out so much better. I have a marauder with 2 lrm 15 and 4 mpl; I face tanked and beat a direwolf solely using my mpls. I run my viper with 3 mpl and, tankiness aside, feel like I'm throwing pebbles at people. The duration really does make a huge difference, but maybe that's an aiming issue.

I think the weapons themselves are balanced (I hate the clan erml and erll). The issue is mech quirking which is all over the place and sort of a reactive method that throws things off.

[LLMbenny]

LLMbenny, on 14 August 2016 - 10:07 PM, said:

I will say Both factions have their strength and weakness.
For example
LPL
a very popular weapon of choice on heavies and assaults
IS:
lower duration - 40% lower compares to clans LPL- more focus damage
can fire up to 3 LPLs without breaking the ghost heat
more heat effection compares to clans LPL
Clans:
longer range - fexible
require less tonnages and slots
Or we can take the LRMs
IS:
cool down faster - higher DPS
more impulse(screen shake)
Clans:
require less tonnages and slots
Can do damage under 180M

AS for AC weaponIS have less face time but the weapons are heavier and biggerClans trade face time for lighter and smaller weapons

[Mcgral18]

Both have their star weapons

The isLPL unleashes impressive burst damage at mid range, with excellent heat efficiency
The cSPL is unparalleled for short range laser damage, almost matching SRMs

The is(U)AC5 can be very punishing, instantly removing 15-25 points...but there's also something to be said about the torrential Dakka output of double tapped double mounted UAC10s


If you ignore the terrible weapons IE all cACs ( not UAC or LBx), isSLs, LRMs, MGs, AC2s, SRM2s, LRM20s (A whole other level of suck that deserves a second mention) and cERLLs

If you ignore those, the top contenders have their roles. Really, damage values are generally too similar to notice, aside from application (see isLPL VS cLPL ...but at half the range)

[Mystere]

Mcgral18, on 14 August 2016 - 10:34 PM, said:

If you ignore the terrible weapons ... cERLLs

A pair or more of CERLLs are fantastic when you're behind enemy lines in a very fast light or medium, if that's the type of gameplay you like, of course. Heck, it's the only thing I can successfully do while leveling my vipers during this very Assault-heavy weekend.

Otherwise, yes, they are bad.

Edited by Mystere, 14 August 2016 - 10:44 PM.

[zagibu]

Requiemking, on 14 August 2016 - 08:36 PM, said:

Clans get the shorter duration Lasers.

Oh yeah, let's basically roll back the last two years, eh? How about no?

[Requiemking]

zagibu, on 15 August 2016 - 02:59 AM, said:

Oh yeah, let's basically roll back the last two years, eh? How about no?

Why not? It's not like Clans are catching many breaks anyways. CW sucks for them because the maps favour IS, the meta favours IS, Hell even the DEVS favour IS. Why not add something that allows Clans to compete? The only reason Clans, and more specifically Jade Falcon, have been successful as of late is because the big merc units have been throwing their weight behind them. Take that away and Jade Falcon's territory would crumple like wet toilet paper.

[Y E O N N E]

Clans getting shorter duration lasers us stupid because the total time on target is not the point. Rather, it is how much damage you do in the other guy's time that matters. In that scenario, almost every Clan laser has the advantage against the vanilla Inner Sphere counterpart, and the ones that don't have dramatic advantages elsewhere.

If anything, Inner Sphere medium lasers need a permanent reduction in burn to 0.81 seconds, making them competitive with the Clan one at least in that department.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yeonne Greene, on 15 August 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

Clans getting shorter duration lasers us stupid because the total time on target is not the point. Rather, it is how much damage you do in the other guy's time that matters. In that scenario, almost every Clan laser has the advantage against the vanilla Inner Sphere counterpart, and the ones that don't have dramatic advantages elsewhere.

If anything, Inner Sphere medium lasers need a permanent reduction in burn to 0.81 seconds, making them competitive with the Clan one at least in that department.

If the community and PGI are worried about TTK, if anything they should be moving the laser durations up, starting with IS MPLs and LPLs.

[Clownwarlord]

IS vs Clan weapon balance ... no such thing. In lore and in this game. I think weapon balance is alright (could always be better because there are some useless weapons on both sides).

As for my opinion on PGI and what they should balance instead is the heat scale and power drawl.

[Gas Guzzler]

Captain Luffy, on 15 August 2016 - 10:00 AM, said:

IS vs Clan weapon balance ... no such thing. In lore and in this game. I think weapon balance is alright (could always be better because there are some useless weapons on both sides).

As for my opinion on PGI and what they should balance instead is the heat scale and power drawl.

Power draw is doomed to fail unless it has a different damage limit for different types of weapons.

[Clownwarlord]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 August 2016 - 10:02 AM, said:

Power draw is doomed to fail unless it has a different damage limit for different types of weapons.

Can you expand or give examples?

[Gas Guzzler]

Captain Luffy, on 15 August 2016 - 10:23 AM, said:

Can you expand or give examples?

Sure.

Lasers have always relied on significantly higher damage than other weapon systems in order to "get the job done".

When the Timber Wolf came out, prior to the Grand ER PPC nerf of 2014, you had the 35 damage PPC-Gauss Timber relatively on par with the 54-61 damage Laser Vomit Timber. This is one example.

Another example, is prior to the rescale, the WHM-BW, with 4 AC5s was seeing use in comp play, replacing the 58 damage Laser Vomit Black Knight, due to its superior sustained DPS. After the rescale and de-quirkening of the BK, WHM-6D, and GHR, IS laser vomit heavies are not what they once were.

Also, I think the only Laser vomit Clan mech worth talking about is the Hunchback-IIC... the heavies aren't even on the radar as far as top tier mechs go. They get the job done well in the solo queue though, as often those matches are much slower paced as no one is sure of exactly where to go as a team.

Another example... name an energy boat assault that can stand up to a 2 UAC5, 2 UAC10 Kodiak (30 damage alpha, assuming Energy Draw treats the double tap the same as ghost heat does, which is not part of the alpha).

The only time lasers have gotten away with doing damage around 30 and been top mechs, is with the super quirked Quickdraws that could fulfill the DPS role with 3 LPL (cooldown quirks, range quirks, heat gen quirks, they could fire for days).

Everyone talks about "repeatable huge alphas", but that isn't how it plays out. Even in the hay day of the meta Black Knight. You had two 58 damage alphas, before having to either wait or just shoot your LPLs. While two alphas sounds overwhelming for the BT universe hardcore fans, in reality that is very limiting as this game plays. As anything with dakka can sustain damage out put for much longer than that.

If one can't dump significant damage out with lasers (having to hold on target for the duration of the burn), then there is really no upside to using lasers, other than sniping with ER LL, which energy draw won't change. Right now you have to fire in groups of 3 anyway, which is 27 damage at a time At extreme range, you can avoid dakka much better, so it isn't an issue.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 15 August 2016 - 10:39 AM.

[SlyJJ]

I wish IS had an "advantage" over Clan weaponry. I've been playing steiner since I started and only recently started gaming with a couple of clan mechs because Im bored of CW anymore. The advantage is overwhelming. I can easily double IS score counts in a clan mech.

The burn times for both pulse an er lasers is kinda irrelevant because its dishing out more damage. Not only is it more damage, its also happening at greater range. Clan pulse lasers have the range that IS large lasers do and significantly greater damage.

The ballistics is even more lopsided. The only UAC IS has is the UAC5. Compare the AC20 to the UAC20 and you've got a clan weapon thats lighter and does TWICE as much damage at a much greater range. I mean seriously, to complain that the UAC fires 4 shots instead of a single pin point? I'll take that all day every day.

Clans arent better in ALL facets of weaponry when compared to IS, but to complain about the drawbacks is to completely overlook just how incredibly powerful their weapons are in the first place. Nevermind omnipoints, nevermind XL engines that dont blow the entire mech when they're hit. I mean come on- playing as clan is playing MWO on "easy" mode

Nontheless- so many clanners feel they're being cheated. I propose the only solution is to switch weapons tech for the next patch and let IS take all the "bad" weapons. It'd be a tragedy to run a King Crab with dual UAC 20s....

[Mawai]

kesmai, on 14 August 2016 - 10:11 PM, said:

Meta has/is changing from pinpoint/fld to a mix of dps/pfld at the moment, the clan uacs have a advantage there. Due to lower weapon weight the clan mechs have better options to mix.
IS has a definte advantage with energy hitscan weapons considering burntime/heat/damage.
I'd say the balance is quite good atm.

I agree that balance isn't too bad at the moment. However, need to keep in mind that this balance includes the sets of IS quirks ... so the clan weapons still probably have an edge at the moment.

Addressing the OPs comments, I've played both IS and clan though not much FW. Not long ago, there was a large complaint that IS ERLL were OP in FW when combined with IS range quirks ... so all the IS range quirks were nerfed leaving a maximum of 10% on some mechs. Since then, there haven't been the usual loud complaints associated with a general imbalance.

As for range/burn time/damage ... clan weapons still deliver a higher alpha. For lasers these require a longer burn time on target. Against slower or stationary mechs this makes them very effective. The extreme long range of clan ERLL makes them semi-useful for long range poking ... but I personally don't use them since I don't like the long burn times. On the other hand, the clan LPL has range, damage and shorter burn time making it a more flexible and popular choice. Finally, the clan ERML is still one of the best weapons in the game for the mix of damage, range, weight and slots.

Anyway, in my opinion and experience, the overall balance isn't too bad. Clan weapons still have an edge over IS in general that is compensated for by IS quirks.

What does need addressing in my opinion are the outlier mechs ... if you take a look at the leaderboard events then it is clear that certain mechs achieve a significantly higher average score than others in their weight class. Since these numbers are accumulated over the top 75 pilots for each mech and the leaderboard tallies the ten best results for each pilot ... the numbers then indicate the best achievable result range for that particular mech over a wide range of players.

Based on the current average numbers from the assault event. The Kodiak is OP being more than 15% better than any other assault (3500 vs 3050 for Direwolf which is second) and MORE than 50% better than the lowest ranking assault (Victor at 2125).

Victor, Highlander and Zeus need a buff and the Kodiak needs a significant nerf,

[xe N on]

Requiemking, on 14 August 2016 - 08:36 PM, said:

So, having played both Clans and IS and getting some experience, I am getting the feeling that IS holds the advantage when it comes to weapons performance. From my experience, in this game Burst damage is infinitely better than DPS, and there is no greater disparity in this than in weapons performances. Each side holds advantages, yes, but I feel the Clan advantages of range, ROF on their ACs, and Damage on their lasers are, at the moment, meaningless, especially in CW.

Balancing after a game mode (Faction Play) that 100 of around 20000 players actively play sound not like a good idea.

From my limited perspective as someone who majorly plays mediums in PUG quick play SCR still beats all my IS medium mechs. Same goes I guess for lights. Arctic Cheetah and Jenner IIC beats all IS lights.

So, weapon balance seem to be alright for clans.