22 replies to this topic

[Dino Banino]

If you've played Mechwarrior 4, you know what I'm talking about.

It seems that Mechwarrior 4 has stayed true to the tabletop but MWO didn't.

Standard Lasers are supposed to fire in one quick beam that essentially has no "duration". Lasers are supposed to fire just as a PPC or a Gauss Rifle does with one quick "BZT" lasting 0.1 or 0.05 seconds.

But in the game, Lasers have "durations" with the ER-Large at 1.25 seconds and the IS Medium Laser at 0.9 seconds.

In the tabletop, Pulse Lasers have an accuracy boost BECAUSE they fire multiple bursts.

So, if Lasers have long durations, that essentially gives them an accuracy boost, and Pulse Lasers have no accuracy boost. If anything, Lasers are more accurate than Pulses because of their longer durations.

In summary: Lasers have increased Range and Accuracy while Pulses have increased Damage and reduced duration. So, my question is: is the extra tonnage for Pulses really worth it for more Damage but less accuracy and range?

[FupDup]

The "one quick beam" version of lasers from old MW games would require massive nerfs to damage or something else in order to prevent them from obsoleting projectile weapons.

In terms of accuracy, having longer durations does not help you kill things. It makes it harder for you to kill things. Shorter beams are more effective.

To use the correct terminology, MWO pulse lasers increase precision rather than accuracy. Both types of weapons have about the same accuracy since they are hitscan.

Edited by FupDup, 16 August 2016 - 08:28 AM.

[SmoothCriminal]

Not sure you've played this game. Duration is not a good asset - and lower duration is incredibly useful.

[Y E O N N E]

Lolwut

I mean, I suppose it is technically correct that standard lasers in this game provide superior accuracy, since beam duration let's you sweep over the target and still claim a hit, but they lack precision. It is easier to make a full miss with a pulse laser, but every hit you make does more of its damage in one spot than a normal laser.

In general, I err on the side of saying yes, they are worth it for the improved precision and damage. On some 'Mechs, it is even essential.

[Otto Cannon]

They get another sort of accuracy instead, since it's easier to get all the damage into a small target area on a moving enemy mech.

[Deathlike]

Back in beta, it wasn't as useful.. mostly because it wasn't distinct enough as MPL was probably "OK"/mediocre at the time. The other issue was this insane idea that pulse lasers should be hotter than their non-pulse counterparts.

In the current state of the game... the answer is generally yes, they are worth it.

[Metus regem]

FupDup, on 16 August 2016 - 08:28 AM, said:

The "one quick beam" version of lasers from old MW games would require massive nerfs to damage or something else in order to prevent them from obsoleting projectile weapons.

In terms of accuracy, having longer durations does not help you kill things. It makes it harder for you to kill things. Shorter beams are more effective.

To use the correct terminology, MWO pulse lasers increase precision rather than accuracy. Both types of weapons have about the same accuracy since they are hitscan.

Fup, I'm going to barrow this image, for the next time I have to explain the difference between accuracy and precision....

[Deathlike]

Metus regem, on 16 August 2016 - 08:32 AM, said:

Fup, I'm going to barrow this image, for the next time I have to explain the difference between accuracy and precision....

He has a far greater collection of images and memes that you'll ever need...

[FupDup]

Metus regem, on 16 August 2016 - 08:32 AM, said:

Fup, I'm going to barrow this image, for the next time I have to explain the difference between accuracy and precision....

You don't really need to get my permission since I'm not the one who made it.

Also, it's spelled borrow*.

[Kyrie]

One overlooked detail is that pulse lasers are more heat/damage efficient, trading in tonnage for more damage at lesser distance. For IS, the LPL has the same heat cost as the ER/LL and does more damage while costing +2tons, same for MPL with a +1ton cost for better heat/damage.

The case is less clear for IS SPL IMHO, as generally only lights mount it and the weight cost is a significant factor.

*EDIT: Corrected MPL.

Edited by Kyrie, 16 August 2016 - 08:38 AM.

[Alistair Winter]

FupDup, on 16 August 2016 - 08:33 AM, said:

You don't really need to get my permission since I'm not the one who made it.

Also, it's spelled borrow*.

Unless you put it in a barrow.




@OP: I used to prefer normal lasers when I started playing MWO, because it was easier to get a partial hit with longer duration. However, as my aim improved, it was easier to find the right moment for short precision bursts with pulse lasers. On the other hand... if you had perfect aim, lasers would ultimately be better, because they're so much lighter and more effective in terms of damage / heat / tonnage.

Edited by Alistair Winter, 16 August 2016 - 08:59 AM.

[Chuck Jager]

In this game you want low duration for hit reg and faster moving mechs

• around .5 sec duration - the best period (other than PPt), but useable only on close range
  
• under .75 - really makes IS shine against Clan in pulses especially with the weight/range cost. You need your build to be pulse oriented and aim for torso/backs/ammo locations etc. IS lplas weight vs use needs to be factored in the specific mech build and level of comp.
  
• around 1 sec - very workable you just need to concentrate and expect to lose some damage
  
• around 1.25 sec - doable if you can play the range game and/or are a small target AND you have boatable clan weapons or IS erllX3. Still not the best for taking out specific areas especially at higher levels of play.
  
• 1.5 sec cerll - only recommended on certain maps and builds and solo pug

Put the above guidelines way above any BT experience/mechanics you are used to. You can adjust for buff/nerfs and playstyle as you see fit.

Edited by Chuck Jager, 16 August 2016 - 09:10 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

IMHO, the sweet-spot for laser duration is 0.8 seconds. It is short enough that even good players will have difficulty spreading it, so any shorter an you are just paying in weight and range for increasingly diminishing returns.

[Yosharian]

Archangel Dino, on 16 August 2016 - 08:24 AM, said:

If you've played Mechwarrior 4, you know what I'm talking about.

It seems that Mechwarrior 4 has stayed true to the tabletop but MWO didn't.

Standard Lasers are supposed to fire in one quick beam that essentially has no "duration". Lasers are supposed to fire just as a PPC or a Gauss Rifle does with one quick "BZT" lasting 0.1 or 0.05 seconds.

But in the game, Lasers have "durations" with the ER-Large at 1.25 seconds and the IS Medium Laser at 0.9 seconds.

In the tabletop, Pulse Lasers have an accuracy boost BECAUSE they fire multiple bursts.

So, if Lasers have long durations, that essentially gives them an accuracy boost, and Pulse Lasers have no accuracy boost. If anything, Lasers are more accurate than Pulses because of their longer durations.

In summary: Lasers have increased Range and Accuracy while Pulses have increased Damage and reduced duration. So, my question is: is the extra tonnage for Pulses really worth it for more Damage but less accuracy and range?

Once you become experienced at MWO you will learn that the time taken for a laser to deal its damage has several consequences attached:

1) Low durations mean the weapon finishes its cooldown cycle faster, which means it has better DPS in situations where you fire repeatedly

2) High durations mean more time staring at the enemy, which gives the enemy more time to deal damage to critical locations on your mech - experienced pilots want to spend as little time as possible facing the enemy, in order to spread damage across the mech

3) Low durations allow damage to be dealt within small windows of attack which can be of benefit to mechs which want to deliver damage quickly then get out of harm's way.

So Pulse lasers are advantageous on mechs which can utilise low duration lasers effectively, e.g. by twisting damage after firing, performing hit 'n run attacks using small windows of attack, or by using them over and over again and benefiting from the superior DPS.

They aren't worth it in situations where you have to stare anyway for whatever reason (e.g. The Dire Wolf is not very good at twisting, or where you are desperately short on tonnage, or where you can't get close enough to the enemy to utilise them at their effective range.

Yeah this is completely different to Tabletop but you can't expect it to be completely the same, they are different beasts.

Edited by Yosharian, 16 August 2016 - 10:46 AM.

[kapusta11]

No they are not. You should stick with TAG laser, it has infinite duration so it's more powerful.

Edited by kapusta11, 16 August 2016 - 10:46 AM.

[Metus regem]

kapusta11, on 16 August 2016 - 10:45 AM, said:

No they are not. You should stick with TAG laser, it has infinite duration so it's more powerful.

Depending on how many indirect LRM mechs are on your team, this might be true....

[cazidin]

Metus regem, on 16 August 2016 - 11:28 AM, said:

Depending on how many indirect LRM mechs are on your team, this might be true....

Actually, the Tag laser has a bug unique to Urbanmech and Vindicator pilots. If you equip 2 or more Tag lasers and nothing else and point your laser dot at the target's head for exactly 29.7 seconds a Long Tom will drop in Quick Play, destroying the enemy team and most of yours but winning the match.

[Paigan]

Archangel Dino, on 16 August 2016 - 08:24 AM, said:

[...]
Standard Lasers are supposed to fire in one quick beam that essentially has no "duration". Lasers are supposed to fire just as a PPC or a Gauss Rifle does with one quick "BZT" lasting 0.1 or 0.05 seconds.
[...]

I don't get why so many people don't get that the original BT rules are MASSIVELY unsuitable for a balanced first person / realtime multiplayer game.
Partly because they were made for a entirely different game mechanic (discrete 10 second turn-based turns instead of a realtime environment).
Party because original BT is very, very moronic in itself (yes, lore zealots, it is. ACs are ridiculously bad, 20tonners have the same "space" as 100tonners, etc.)

So rules MUST be adjusted, improved, balanced, changed to get a viable multiplayer game.
Just look at Mech Commander, for example. They virtually threw out BT entirely and replaced it with something sane.

E.g. in MW2, i ran around with something like 3 MPL and the rest filled with DHS, resulting in a continous 43534653 DPS beam, sawing through EVERYTHING that came in range.
MWO is several lightyears more balanced.
PGI did an incredibly good job in balancing the weapons relatively well while still keeping them very close to their original idea.

So:
Stop saying "It's not true to original BT rules". They CANNOT apply here.

Edited by Paigan, 16 August 2016 - 12:15 PM.

[cazidin]

Pulse lasers aren't worth it. Use PPCs instead.

[Tordin]

Yeah.. they are.
In short. Having pulse lasers in arm hardpoints are better than longer duration standard lasers. STD lasers fits better in torso hardpoints, for a more steady aim during the longer duration burn, since std in arm require you to be more precise and steadier for full damage on the area of the enemy mech you want to damage.

Some exceptions though. On slow heavies and assaults pulse lasers in torso can be very handy against pesky lights and mediums bumping into you. Especially if your torso twist is slow, so that shorter pulses have better chance at doing more damage than say, trying to keep your std torso lasers slowly trying to give max dmg against fast lights when turning.