112 replies to this topic

[WarHippy]

Escef, on 16 August 2016 - 02:54 PM, said:

And another one for the block list. Later man-child!

LOL No real response so you tuck tail and run. Typical. Also, the man-child comment does a bang up job of making my point for me. Thanks for that.

Mawai, on 16 August 2016 - 03:04 PM, said:

I think everyone know why folks are unhappy.

People have spent significant amounts of money on mech packs, MC and other purchases that do not qualify for PGIs customer appreciation awards even though they may have spent significantly more than would be required to qualify for the awards IF they had purchased mech packs that qualified. They feel that since they have spent so much money, THEY SHOULD receive these rewards too even if they haven't purchased the packs.

This situation is exacerbated in part because the IS top tier reward appears to be a particularly desirable ECM Stalker.

The favorite cited example are folks who may have purchased a single mech pack+reinforcements+hero which costs more than a collector pack but doesn't qualify.

On the other hand, there is at least one person who has said they have spent $650 in the past year on MC alone and could care less whether they qualify or not for these rewards. They have certainly spent more than many of the folks who are complaining about the situation.

Personally, I agree that PGI might need a better definition of "top tier" given their shift in marketing from large grouped mech packs to single packs. I think they could also consider adding a reward tier simply based on total money spent on the game in the past year which would address some of the complaints.

However, the bottom line is that the customer appreciation rewards have NEVER been about how much you spend BUT on rewarding purchases of SPECIFIC products ONLY. It has always been the case, that folks who spent MORE on non-qualifying purchases just don't receive the rewards.

People like me for example who bought the clan IIC pack up to Orion because I just don't use assaults ... I missed out on the clan top tier pack even though between that and other purchases I spent more than the top tier would have cost. Not a big deal to me.

.. obviously though some people feel entitled to the rewards based on how much they have spent rather than whether that money was spent on the specific products in the rewards list.

I really don't get the impression people understand why a lot of people are unhappy. PGI's intent with this program is commendable, however their execution was not.

Coolant, on 16 August 2016 - 03:05 PM, said:

Please explain logically how giving away free stuff vs. not giving away free stuff is bad business. After all, it boils down to that. PGI didn't have to give away anything and they did. You want to relate it to business, then do so. Ultimately, PGI had two choices. One, they wouldn't have a loyalty program (and hence nothing given away for free) or, two, they would have a loyalty program. If you are arguing that they shouldn't have had a loyalty program then you need to establish that having a loyalty program would hurt business (good luck trying to argue that). You can red herring the argument by defending the type of loyalty program rather than the real issue that they should have one or not. However, before PGI made a decision about the type of loyalty program they had to first make a decision to have one or not to have one. They chose to have one. So which position are you defending? Are you saying that they never should give away free items? Or are you saying they should but it's bad for business?

The act of giving away free stuff isn't in and of itself bad business. What is bad business is creating a loyalty program and then only showing appreciation for the loyalty of certain customers. It is bad business to essentially tell many of your loyal customers that they are not actually loyal in your eyes because they didn't spend money in the proper way. If a company does a loyalty program it is to generate good will and more sales, and that is a good thing. However, if you do it in way that pisses off a lot of your paying customers by saying their money isn't as good as someone else that good will isn't created and causes potential loss of future sales. In that situation they are better off not having a loyalty program at all.

Like I said in my earlier post to you this is a perception problem. Had this been purely an incentive sale where PGI said they wanted to give free items out for people who bought or upgraded to certain packs that would be fine and dandy. However, they called it a loyalty program which is a very different ball of wax. Loyalty programs don't work when they alienate customers, and that is exactly what they are doing here. A paying customer is a paying customer, but not for long if you tell them their money doesn't count or matter to you.

Fade Akira, on 16 August 2016 - 03:52 PM, said:

Its rewarding people who spent some decent cash on the game, if you didn't then maybe you don't deserve the reward? Lol.

Its arbitrarily rewarding only some of the people who spent decent cash on the game, and that is why people are frustrated.

Lyoto Machida, on 16 August 2016 - 05:24 PM, said:

Escef is right though...rules are rules and it works that way in real life.

For example, Guy A is a swimmer that goes to college (let's call it "Stanford"), while Guy B works at a fast food restaurant in the inner city (we'll call it "Inglewood"). Both of them end up with sexual assault charges but Guy A qualifies for the "6 month felony sexual assault" program because his family is wealthy and influential. Guy B ends up qualifying for the "25 years to life felony sexual assault" program because he is poor and could only afford a public defender.

Is that how it should work? Probably not but people should stop worrying about how things work that they can't control and focus on moving forward and not letting trivial details get to you.

Rules are rules, but that doesn't mean people shouldn't point out how stupid those rules are and work toward getting them fixed. it also shouldn't be a surprise when those stupid rules backfire.

[KafkaSyrup]

Rules are rules, despite some being arbitrary or self-serving. Seriously, that attitude of just-so status-quoism is amazing. Business has negotiation, and those calling this whining need to get over themselves. It's bad business to encourage people to buy things they don't really want... and it's not acting entitled if you pay, more so when it's well above the market of other games.

TL;DR: Collectors pack are terrible at value at it would be in PGI's better interest to shift away from this model into one with more flexibility and/or escalating value with increase spending. The redundant mech is often not useful, and the premium time less so for the significant population that are casuals/weekend only players.

Want more $40 purchases? Bundle the hero and extra fluff items and the skin, leave out the Extra 30 days. I'd upgrade my Cyclops order for that right now for. For add-ons, +$20 for the Reinforcement mechs and 30 days premium time. Have a big $70 bundle for everything plus bonus upgrade Cbills/Modules. Something along those lines where you work with your customers purchase trends instead of against them.

Edited by KafkaSyrup, 17 August 2016 - 10:02 AM.

[Bobzilla]

They just need to change the name to anything more BOGO and completely remove they "appreciation" part.

It's a buy one get one.

Otherwise PGI is basically saying, you aren't appreciated unless you happen to have bought these certain packs, regardless of how much you did support the game.

On top of that they added 'loyalty' all over the program hinting that you aren't loyal to the brand if you don't own them, or are if you do.

In the end, it's just a sale and marketing idea that really does benefit both sides, it's just PGI is (always has been) terribad at optics/PR.

[Jetfire]

You get perks for stuff you already bought. Why are you whinging like a three year old who got a free pack of gummi bears with fewer red ones than green ones?

Yes, I fully realize that it is a marketing ploy but it always was. It's a F2P... If you want something buy it or don't and get or do not get whatever rewards or bonuses you get. I wish they still sold 4x mech preorders but they don't, but I still buy what I want and only what I want.

Edited by Jetfire, 17 August 2016 - 09:43 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Hexidecimator, on 16 August 2016 - 11:33 AM, said:

First, let me say that I don't play as much anymore so this post might seem irrelevant but for new players to the community I feel this might offer an example to how PGI pushes players away from its game.


The Loyalty Rewards make little or no sense, and highlight how PGI fails to execute an idea. The overall premise is nice, the thought is correct, but the design and follow through are poor. For those that do not understand how the rewards work, the overall concept is that you reward players for spending money on the game. However, the execution of this is terrible. The following example will highlight the problem.


EXAMPLE

Player 1 Purchases:

• Kodiak Collector $40
  
• Night Gyr Collector $40
  
• Cyclops Collector $40
  
• Warhammer Collector $40

Total Spent 2016 = $160




Qualifies for Top Tier Rewards


Player 2 Purchases:

• Kodiak $20 (Hero Variant - $15)
  
• Night Gyr $20 (Hero Variant - $15)
  
• Archer $20 (Hero Variant - $15)
  
• Rifleman $20 (Hero Variant - $15)
  
• Warhammer $20 (Hero Variant - $15)
  
• Viper $20 (Hero Variant - $15)
  
• Hunstman $20 (Hero Variant - $15)
  
• Cyclops $20 (Hero Variant - $15)

Total Spent 2016 = $280




Qualifies for everything but the Top Tier IS and Clan Rewards


The whole idea behind a rewards program is too reward people who invest in the game, yet this system rewards people for buying a specific package. In the example above Player 2 spends almost double the money but doesnt qualify for the Top Tier Rewards? To those who dont spend money on the game, I know you will say who cares, but the people who spend money on this game is what keeps it alive. When PGI screws the people who spend money on the game, they generally dont buy things anymore, so there in lies the problem. For new players who ask, "What does PGI do so wrong?" Here is an example for you.

I have to agree that I don't like the way the reward system works myself. I personally have just been buying the stock $20 pack + the Hero mech because I just don't see the point of the collector packs. I mean your already getting a +30% variant in the Hero mech which is its own unique variant and only available for cash. Spending the extra $20 for the collector pack just to get a +30 bonus copy of a mech I can end up buying for C-bills doesn't make sense.

As of right now I have bought a total of 3 of the Clan standard packs + Hero for a total of $105.00. However to qualify for the Top Tier Clan pack I absolutely have to buy collector packs and it doesn't matter how many standard packs + hero I buy or the money I spend. I could buy a 6 Clan mechs standard packs + Hero which would cost me $205.00 but that doesn't qualify me for the Top Tier Clan pack because only "Collector's Packs" count. Sad part is it only takes 2 collectors packs or $80 to qualify for the Top Tier Clan Reward. Seriously something is wrong when I can spend substantially more money than another player yet get rewarded less for it because I what I purchased.

[KafkaSyrup]

Jetfire, on 17 August 2016 - 09:34 AM, said:

You get perks for stuff you already bought. Why are you whinging like a three year old who got a free pack of gummi bears with fewer red ones than green ones?

Yes, I fully realize that it is a marketing ploy but it always was. It's a F2P... If you want something buy it or don't and get or do not get whatever rewards or bonuses you get. I wish they still sold 4x mech preorders but they don't, but I still buy what I want and only what I want.

....What if I told you there was a way to make both PGI happier as well a Customers? Whinging can be productive.

And hell... we all are big man-children anyways, playing giant stompy robots and posting on forums about the same.

[Felbombling]

Kirkland Langue, on 16 August 2016 - 07:35 PM, said:

So? That was a different Program.
This particular program is specifying exact items to purchase.
If the item itself isn't as important as when it was purchased - then PGI shouldn't have named specific items and should have just gone with dollar amounts.

Obviously, PGI can do whatever they want - but by requiring specific items during specific periods of time - it makes those who bought the specific items (outside of the time period) and those who spent more than the desired amount (but not the specific items themselves) angry.

Do those people really have a reason to be angry? Here's the thing: this is a loyalty appreciation reward. it's not a sale on those particular items - the entire program is supposed to reward players who have helped keep MWO floating. Once you go down the road of disqualifying people who very clearly have been loyal - well that doesn't look good.

Sure, it's PGI's game to do with as they please; but that doesn't mean the gaming community has to give PGI any respect.

Kirkland, are you suggesting that someone who purchased a $6.95 Mech Credit bundle in 2015 should be getting the loyalty reward each and every year beyond that? I know PGI have messed up the execution of this 'loyalty' reward in more ways than one, but that seems a little overboard. If that is the pattern established, the incentive for future purchases would be diminished in my eyes.

Navid A1, on 17 August 2016 - 12:26 AM, said:

You sure the soup was free?
If so, can I have that soup with the fly in it please?... I'll eat the fly too.
I'll be very happy if PGI gives me a permanently legged stalker.

Complaining about the free stuff means that I first get a stalker, then complain about why it is red instead of blue.

I read this and scratched my head. It was only after I had scrolled up and read 'Navid A1' as the author that the picture became clearer.

[stVillain]

*edited* nevermind, this entire thread is nuts.

Edited by stVillain, 17 August 2016 - 11:24 AM.

[Mechwarrior1441491]

Different decals for how long you've been with the game, a number on a certain design would have been interesting on top of this.

[Navid A1]

StaggerCheck, on 17 August 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

I read this and scratched my head. It was only after I had scrolled up and read 'Navid A1' as the author that the picture became clearer.

I don't really expect you to understand.

Thank god I did not created this thread.

[Jetfire]

KafkaSyrup, on 17 August 2016 - 09:56 AM, said:

....What if I told you there was a way to make both PGI happier as well a Customers? Whinging can be productive.

And hell... we all are big man-children anyways, playing giant stompy robots and posting on forums about the same.

Oh sure, I am not saying the PGI are marketing and business geniuses, but they haven't listened to my free grade A suggestions ever so I just take or leave what they give me. It's pretty obvious they are just going to faff about anyway.

Edited by Jetfire, 17 August 2016 - 11:46 AM.

[Dee Eight]

We'd KNOW roughly, how many bought the collector packs IF for the subsequent model release leaderboards, there was a seperate board for the basic and (S) versions of the same mech variant. Just don't play the (S) till the last day, have a crappy first game, and then check the board afterwards and see your position on it to know a good approximation of how many bought the collector packs.

[RussianWolf]

Dee Eight, on 16 August 2016 - 01:46 PM, said:

I'm at a thousand US dollars for the past 8 1/2 months... what are you at ?

I haven't spent a cent in about 18 months and I'm still close to $2k in the game. Back to the kiddie pool guppy boy..... okay... maybe tadpole..

I couldn't be happier that the only reward I'll qualify for this year is the one for playing the game. And I likely only barely qualify for that one.

I doubt PGI could do anything to entice me to spend money again, but I could drop a grand overnight if they could.

[Navid A1]

Dee Eight, on 17 August 2016 - 11:52 AM, said:

We'd KNOW roughly, how many bought the collector packs IF for the subsequent model release leaderboards, there was a seperate board for the basic and (S) versions of the same mech variant. Just don't play the (S) till the last day, have a crappy first game, and then check the board afterwards and see your position on it to know a good approximation of how many bought the collector packs.

They used to do that for each variant for every released chassis.
And people usually did some calculations based on that (by seeing how low they could place on the boards)
Now, only way to know is to ask people you know in the game and/or your own observation in game.
I don't really see (S) mechs very often. top-tier (I) and (R ) mechs are more common... I even see (G) mechs sometimes.

[RussianWolf]

Navid A1, on 17 August 2016 - 12:06 PM, said:

They used to do that for each variant for every released chassis.
And people usually did some calculations based on that (by seeing how low they could place on the boards)
Now, only way to know is to ask people you know in the game and/or your own observation in game.
I don't really see (S) mechs very often. top-tier (I) and (R ) mechs are more common... I even see (G) mechs sometimes.

Been running my (F)s almost exclusively since I mastered my cbill Archers. Wont buy any new mechs until there is a mechbay sale. Use up my remaining MC and then I'll be completely done with new stuff unless I start selling variants.

[Kirkland Langue]

StaggerCheck, on 17 August 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

Kirkland, are you suggesting that someone who purchased a $6.95 Mech Credit bundle in 2015 should be getting the loyalty reward each and every year beyond that? I know PGI have messed up the execution of this 'loyalty' reward in more ways than one, but that seems a little overboard. If that is the pattern established, the incentive for future purchases would be diminished in my eyes.

You are seriously trying to play some kind of internet lawyer to come to that conclusion. but whatever, if that's what you want to believe I was trying to say - then run with it.

[Felbombling]

Kirkland Langue, on 17 August 2016 - 01:04 PM, said:

You are seriously trying to play some kind of internet lawyer to come to that conclusion. but whatever, if that's what you want to believe I was trying to say - then run with it.

Testy, testy... I only asked you a question, Kirkland. You complained that you didn't get rewarded this year for your bundle, someone pointed out that you already got rewarded last year and your reply started out with, "So? That was a different program." Most people would simply acknowledge that they were rewarded handsomely last year and move on. Instead, you went on to say, "Obviously, PGI can do whatever they want - but by requiring specific items during specific periods of time - it makes those who bought the specific items (outside of the time period) and those who spent more than the desired amount (but not the specific items themselves) angry."

What else was I supposed to think after reading that? That reads to me as you were p!ssed that you didn't get rewarded again this year.

I imagine, based on your response to me, that you are angry that they listed a bundle still for sale to the general player population as a requirement to get this years loyalty reward, but because they didn't specify that bundles qualifying for loyalty rewards last year do not count again this year... your hopes were dashed. Either way, it still reads that you had expectation that that same bundle would reward you multiple times down the road.

So... to use that internet lawyer label you hit me with... sue me.

[Kirkland Langue]

Show me where I complained that I'm not getting "rewards" for my purchases. I've repeatedly stated that I'm fine with my purchases not being qualified. I'm just completely flaberghasted by the white knights who downplay the contributions made by the whales.

Sure, if the game had a million players and there were plenty of people giving $10 or $20 per month - then I'd also argue that the whales shouldn't have "undue influence". But this isn't such a game - this game has a very small population and the financing for the game overwhelmingly comes from those Whales.

Add that this discussion is about "appreciation" ... the whales are 100% the people who should get the appreciation. They finance this game, yet are told they don't qualify for appreciation.

The only complaint I have towards PGI, about my not getting something from them, would be leveled at them for not even attempting to deliver the game they promised when it was Closed Beta. If I had my way, there would be no appreciation mechs given out. At most it would be unique camo schemes.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Kirkland Langue, on 17 August 2016 - 02:42 PM, said:

If I had my way, there would be no appreciation mechs given out. At most it would be unique camo schemes.

A lot of people would probably prefer that way, especially since they lock those mechs out for an entire year before they are available to anyone else.

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 August 2016 - 03:01 PM, said:

A lot of people would probably prefer that way, especially since they lock those mechs out for an entire year before they are available to anyone else.

I think that the appreciation thingy could actually be salvageable while also correcting the "paywall of unique mechs" problem.

A. The new mech variants can be purchased at an inflated C-Bill cost immediately. The cost will decay over the months until eventually it reaches the normal amount.

B. Release (L) variants of mechs that already exist instead of entirely new ones.

C. Give eligible people a "Loyalty Token" that they can give to any variant of their choice.