337 replies to this topic

[Wintersdark]

I still maintain having a hard cap on two gauss, while inelegant, is certainly not such an issue that that it requires multiple pages of ways to avoid.

Gauss has always been a balancing problem, and really - two gauss is enough. It would be better discouraged some other way but seriously, just not being able to do it just isn't a problem.

Krucilatoz, on 19 August 2016 - 06:44 AM, said:

why the energy generator limited at 30?

Would it be better if it defined by engine size, for example 375 engine (XL/Std) have 37.5,
kodiak XL400 has 40 energy draw ??

If those "energy" generated from engine, it will be more sense that bigger engine generate more energy/power

don't design on what you feel fits the fluff narrative. Should be balanced by gameplay purely.

Using engine size is very problematic.

Not to say everything should remain 30, making quirks modify this so individual chassis can have more/less is definitely a possible idea, as is flat weight class changes.

[MoonUnitBeta]

One thing's for sure, we're ganna need a way to tell for sure what running out of energy exactly means.

With Power Draw, you're always going to want to ride the line between excusable weapon fire and penalty.
It's poor design (whether it's intentional or otherwise) to require me to sit there for 10 minutes firing each weapon individually, then an alpha, and then figuring out a chain fire and grouping pattern after comparing %'s. You may be doing this regardless what info is given, but it will be far quicker if there was something that explained to players what running out of energy actually means.
By not giving players the tools to figure out the best way to use the system is worrisome if it's excluded out of fear for players abusing it. It's inevitable. Leaving it out further pushes that gap between long time player, and new user.
Explaining to players how much extra heat was incurred, and which weapons use the most energy will benefit everyone, and help us move on from the GHOST is GHOST HEAT.

PGI also states that reaching -120 energy = suicide. But how, pay tell, does one know how far in the hole they are? Also something that needs to be translated to the player, but that can be done with simple math if the values are shown, or a mech lab warning if an alpha exceeds 150 energy.

Edited by MoonUnitBeta, 19 August 2016 - 07:33 AM.

[MovinTarget]

Been on the PTS:

Dire wolf with 8 ER PPCs, only 3 additional DHS:

(all test done as stationary on New Forest Colony)

Alpha all 8- Insta shut down for extended period of time, only 3% damage to internals

Fire 4 at once - DID NOT EVEN SHUT DOWN ON FOREST COLONY - Heat went to 99% but no cooking at all!

Fire 4 while walking - shut down for a second or less.

Fire 4 while walking with Override on - not effect, no cooking, nothing...

Not sure if this is the desired effect but wanted to mention it...

So now my DWF build will be 4 ER PPC and 2 Gauss (yeah not much ammo...) 70 pinpoint and as long as I don't fire the gauss until energy is full, it should have little impact on heat...

Edited by MovinTarget, 19 August 2016 - 07:36 AM.

[Wintersdark]

Scout Derek, on 19 August 2016 - 06:59 AM, said:

Now I wish there was some way that snipers with 2-3 large lasers got spared; as they get hurt the most by this it seems. Per say, the Raven -3L gets hurt the most with its only offensive weapons, the 2 ER Larges.

How do you feel the two er Larges, or even three are penalised? You can very effectively run three clan er Larges.

[Wintersdark]

MoonUnitBeta, on 19 August 2016 - 07:31 AM, said:

One thing's for sure, we're ganna need a way to tell for sure what running out of energy exactly means.

With Power Draw, you're always going to want to ride the line between excusable weapon fire and penalty.
It's poor design (whether it's intentional or otherwise) to require me to sit there for 10 minutes firing each weapon individually, then an alpha, and then figuring out a chain fire and grouping pattern after comparing %'s. You may be doing this regardless what info is given, but it will be far quicker if there was something that explained to players what running out of energy actually means.
By not giving players the tools to figure out the best way to use the system is worrisome if it's excluded out of fear for players abusing it. It's inevitable. Leaving it out further pushes that gap between long time player, and new user.
Explaining to players how much extra heat was incurred, and which weapons use the most energy will benefit everyone, and help us move on from the GHOST is GHOST HEAT.

PGI also states that reaching -120 energy = suicide. But how, pay tell, does one know how far in the hole they are? Also something that needs to be translated to the player, but that can be done with simple math if the values are shown, or a mech lab warning if an alpha exceeds 150 energy.

It should show how far part the limit you are, but you have to override to kill yourself except in an extremely contrived situation.

You can't fire when below zero power unless you override, so if just above zero you'd need a 90 draw alpha to kill yourself, that's tough with spread weapons only counting .85

[Dee Eight]

Myself I'm fine with gauss losing the triple range bands and the charge time. Also it helps to think of energy draw as energy refill... when you drop and the betty goes "reactor online, weapons online" what its really saying is weapons capacitors charged... and then when you fire them, the energy draw is the system refilling the capacitor banks.

Also for people who think bigger engines like in assault mechs should have more energy capacity...yes...and no. Yes they do but no, more of it isn't going to be available to weapons fire. Remember...the reason for engine ratings is to provide the electricity needed for the myomer bundles which actually are part of the internal structure, and which moves the mech. A 200 rating engine is the same engine whether its installed in a 25 ton mech, a 50 ton mech or a 100 ton mech. But the electricity from that 200 engine can move a 25 ton mech a lot faster than a 50 or 100 ton mech. The amount of bleed energy left over for weapons and electronics are going to be effectively the same though. Be thankful the energy draw mechanic only affects offensive weapons usage and not jump jets, or ECM and Active probes and AMS also.

[Wintersdark]

MovinTarget, on 19 August 2016 - 07:32 AM, said:

Been on the PTS:

Dire wolf with 8 ER PPCs, only 3 additional DHS:

(all test done as stationary on New Forest Colony)

Alpha all 8- Insta shut down for extended period of time, only 3% damage to internals

Fire 4 at once - DID NOT EVEN SHUT DOWN ON FOREST COLONY - Heat went to 99% but no cooking at all!

Fire 4 while walking - shut down for a second or less.

Fire 4 while walking with Override on - not effect, no cooking, nothing...

Not sure if this is the desired effect but wanted to mention it...

I keep saying it. People get worried that they're punished unfairly, but the energy draw system as it is right now is way more lenient than ghost heat. You can realistically use 3 PPC's or 4 if you're willing to eat a little heat inefficiency.

TLDR: Exceeding 30 draw is a tactical choice, and a very plausible one. You can choose to burst harder by reducing DPS in a meaningful way.

[Dee Eight]

Also regarding the clan large pulse laser range...the range in TT was 20 hexes, which is 600 meters...right where the optimal is now... the ER LL range was 25 hexes... 750 meters, pretty close to the range now. Why is that such a difference that you had to invent new ranges ? Why not just eliminate the maximum range doubling optimal range crap ? Also the ER PPCs are supposed to be 660 meters. In BT, ER-LL's shot further than everything except for the 2 class autocannons in the early 3050s timeline.

[Scout Derek]

Wintersdark, on 19 August 2016 - 07:33 AM, said:

How do you feel the two er Larges, or even three are penalised? You can very effectively run three clan er Larges.

That was a bad example. I was trying to give a stereotype of what everyone would think of what a sniper mech would be like.

[Ryoken]

To me the fundamental game mechanic of heat gradually reducing the mechs effectiveness with increasing heat level is still missing.

So no matter if I am at heat level 10 or 27 - I can still run as fast as a cooled down mech - I can still shoot my alpha as precise as a cooled down mech - my weapons still recharge as fast as a cooled down mech.

Only if I reach shut down my effectiveness instantly drops to zero. But until then I am fully 100% operational.

Now players will just fire their alpha strikes in different weapon patterns which may slightly increase TTK.

In contrast, if heat level would gradually render your mech useless this would be a way more smooth way of remarkably increase TTK while at the same time enriching the game experience with the skill of heat management.

So why isnt the heat level gradually slowing down my mech?

So why isnt the heat level gradually increasing weapon recharge time?

So why isnt the heat level gradually decreasing my weapon accuracy?

Edited by Ryoken, 19 August 2016 - 08:14 AM.

[exiledangel]

system is viable with major tweaking to it if PGI dos this right and not rush in to the game list ghost heat. all the additional sounds and noise are very annoying.

[xe N on]

Good thing PGI. Keep this up! Minor tweaks are necessary but general way is the right one!

[Wintersdark]

Scout Derek, on 19 August 2016 - 07:54 AM, said:

That was a bad example. I was trying to give a stereotype of what everyone would think of what a sniper mech would be like.

I still don't understand where you're going with it. Snipers benefit, if anything. SRM's should be reduced in draw absolutely, but sniping minor bonus heat isn't an issue. It becomes an issue if pressed, though.

[Reno Blade]

I have the feeling that the system would be pretty decent if we change the penalty multiplyer.
Instead of adding 0.5x of damage as heat, it should be at least 1.0x or even 2.0x to even notice the penalty.

Maybe even reduce the maximum Energy pool to 28 or 25, so the penalty kicks in earlier = no more 3x Large weapons ( 3x LP, 3x PPC, 2x Gauss).

There could be baseline differences in mech sizes, but better no quirks for the pool/replenish speed.
Maybe Lights = 20, Meds 24, Heavies 28 and Assaults 32 or something like this.

[Willothius]

BSK, on 18 August 2016 - 02:02 PM, said:

[/b][/b][/b][/b][/b][/b]

I am not and I say it again, just use the same reticle shake from jumping and masc. If the alpha exceeds 30 damage the reticle shakes and due to laser duration the alpha will be reduced dramatically. It can be THAT simple and effective.

Your overcomplicated energy draw system is noobunfriendly and will make MORE and MORE people leave the game. Why don't you guys understand?

You can't seriously believe that this:
"shoot more guns = draw more energy, bar empty = receive penalty"

Is MORE complicated and noob unfriendly then the current:
"wait 0,51 sec between alphas = totally fine, wait 0,49 between alphas = instant death"??
If so, why don't you understand?

Also, screen shake as result of alpha makes no sense. I believe what you're aiming for is called "weapon convergence", which you might recognize from the skill tree placeholder that doesn't do anything for about 3 years now, since they somehow haven't gotten around to implement it. I've given up on that.
But the energy draw system sounds, surprisingly because PGI, quite well designed!!

Edited by Willothius, 19 August 2016 - 08:22 AM.

[MovinTarget]

PGI,

Do you need us to post feedback or are you collecting data?

[Dee Eight]

There is a whole forum for feedback. This was JUST the announcement posting for the PTS being active.

[Wintersdark]

Reno Blade, on 19 August 2016 - 08:16 AM, said:

I have the feeling that the system would be pretty decent if we change the penalty multiplyer.
Instead of adding 0.5x of damage as heat, it should be at least 1.0x or even 2.0x to even notice the penalty.

Maybe even reduce the maximum Energy pool to 28 or 25, so the penalty kicks in earlier = no more 3x Large weapons ( 3x LP, 3x PPC, 2x Gauss).

There could be baseline differences in mech sizes, but better no quirks for the pool/replenish speed.
Maybe Lights = 20, Meds 24, Heavies 28 and Assaults 32 or something like this.

I do think the penalty will need to be higher, but I'd like to see it start where it is and see how the game plays out.

As it stands now, some weapon combinations that bypassed ghost heat (see: Dual Gauss+Dual PPC) now cost more, while similar combinations that triggered ghost heat for comparable damage now penalize you far less.

So, while ghost heat prohibited combinations are generally allowable now, everything at those levels costs you more heat -> thus efficiency lost.


Much better to start at 0.5 heat per overdraw, and adjust going forward, rather than start punishingly high. As it stands, this system is substantially more forgiving than ghost heat, and that's a very nice step in my book.

[Gas Guzzler]

If the penalty is higher the capacity should be higher as well.

[April Showers]

Holy sh... one fatfingered accidential Alpha and you can hear the wailing of the NOVA-PRIME pilots.
accidential suicides galore ?