337 replies to this topic

[Tiantara]

Wintersdark, on 18 August 2016 - 08:40 PM, said:

No, it's not. Have you tried it? Fire a uac20, get 20 energy draw. Double tap happens at 0.5seconds, you're at 10 energy, that takes you to 30. No extra heat.

But here's where you folks need to test this stuff.

- Just tested 2xUAC20... Really fast overheat on HBK-IIC, (also I love that sound of overheating signal). But guns jammed and it takes time to cooldown a little. Anyway - 2xUAC20 - not a good idea to use now. Only if you really know for what you put them into mech.

[ARM32]

Ok, new "energy draw" stuff not that bad as "lock target to get full distance from lasers", but, still some strange stuffs.
1 - why it's 30 energy and 20 per/sec for everyone? From locust to kodiak... Literaly - locust don't needs this energy, Kodiak with 30 - "bottlenecked" like GTX1080 on 1core AMD cpu... So, why not to give like: setuped engine = energy cap? Like: XL 400 = 40 eng/points, standard 190 = 19, XL 355 = 35.5 points. And stuff like energy recharge = ~1/2 on XL and ~1\3 on std, like XL 400 = 40 eng point and 20 points per/sec on recharge, std 300 = 30 eng points and 10 on recharge per second. (not balanced, just example).
2 - ok, we got heatsinks, but in way of energy - why we don't have capasitors? 1 line capasitors = +2 energy points, 2 line = +5. weight 1line = 1t. 2 line =2.5 or like this. It's just logic, when u got energy, and u totaly needs it for battle, u will get "addons" for bring more energy...

Edited by ARM32, 18 August 2016 - 08:49 PM.

[jweltsch]

Wintersdark, on 18 August 2016 - 08:42 PM, said:

No, it's not. Have you tried it? Fire a uac20, get 20 energy draw. Double tap happens at 0.5seconds, you're at 10 energy, that takes you to 30. No extra heat.

But here's where you folks need to test this stuff.

Exceed that. Go to 40. It's 5 extra heat.

I ran a 4PPC 3ML standard engined awesome tonight. I ONLY group fired the PPC's - all four at once. It was very manageable.

That would have been death under ghost heat, yet here I could group fire all 4 three times consecutively without overheating.

People think if you top 30damage it'll overheat you. It doesn't; that's not the point. Heavy alphas just reduce overall DPS, so you have to choose what you want to do, but unless you're doing a LOT of pinpoint damage it's not that bad.

yup. I saw brawlers used extremely effectively. Lots of Gauss but a 7s cool down severely curtails it up close... And in a brawl, you're not keeping that Gauss long.


The biggest shock for me testing this was not how much it did, but how little. It's a very granular system, doesn't have the big heat shock ghost heat had. Firing too much just erodes efficiency.

The bar grows again very fast too, so spacing your fire a very tiny bit negates it completely.

8 erll dwf had no problems.

Gauss rifles are balanced by cd, lasers, acs, ppcs, and missles are not. They are balanced by heat or tonnage, and energy draw counteracts heat balances pretty heavily. Range NEEDS to be accounted for or you will see lots of large lasers and ppcs and not too many srms or ac/20s

[Tiantara]

ARM32, on 18 August 2016 - 08:48 PM, said:

Ok, new "energy draw" stuff not that bad as "lock target to get full distance from lasers", but, still some strange stuffs.
1 - why it's 30 energy and 20 per/sec for everyone? From locust to kodiak... Literaly - locust don't needs this energy, Kodiak with 30 - "bottlenecked" like GTX1080 on 1core AMD cpu... So, why not to give like: setuped engine = energy cap? Like: XL 400 = 40 eng/points, standard 190 = 19, XL 355 = 35.5 points. And stuff like energy recharge = ~1/2 on XL and ~1\3 on std, like XL 400 = 40 eng point and 20 points per/sec on recharge, std 300 = 30 eng points and 10 on recharge per second. (not balanced, just example).
2 - ok, we got heatsinks, but in way of energy - why we don't have capasitors? 1 line capasitors = +2 energy points, 2 line = +5. weight 1line = 1t. 2 line =2.5 or like this. It's just logic, when u got energy, and u totaly needs it for battle, u will get "addons" for bring more energy...

- Better place from class of mech. 25-30 light. 30-35 medium. 35-40 heavy. 40-45 assault. That better on my opinion than engine. And that's why:

1. You put lover engine of STD for more survivability and more weapon as well. You can't chain energy points to engine, 'couse most of builds become copy of each other. All that made to more chain\group fire not "press button to fire all your guns". Also for limiting fire-power of extreme cold builds around pure ballistic\gauss\missiles.
2. Heatsinks still need to put off heat from weapon which generates besides of used point or not.

Edited by Tiantara, 18 August 2016 - 09:10 PM.

[DGTLDaemon]

Hold on a second. If I'm reading this correctly, dual UAC10 builds are now illegal? Because double-tapping 2xUAC10 would put you at 40 heat, and it definitely takes less than 0.5 seconds to fire the second burst...

All cLPL builds now seem totally useless, too. Good job, PGI. Will be pulling my preorder for Marauder IIC.

Edited by DGTLDaemon, 18 August 2016 - 09:20 PM.

[HB10]

Quote

Ok, new "energy draw" stuff not that bad as "lock target to get full distance from lasers", but, still some strange stuffs.
1 - why it's 30 energy and 20 per/sec for everyone? From locust to kodiak... Literaly - locust don't needs this energy, Kodiak with 30 - "bottlenecked" like GTX1080 on 1core AMD cpu... So, why not to give like: setuped engine = energy cap? Like: XL 400 = 40 eng/points, standard 190 = 19, XL 355 = 35.5 points. And stuff like energy recharge = ~1/2 on XL and ~1\3 on std, like XL 400 = 40 eng point and 20 points per/sec on recharge, std 300 = 30 eng points and 10 on recharge per second. (not balanced, just example).
2 - ok, we got heatsinks, but in way of energy - why we don't have capasitors? 1 line capasitors = +2 energy points, 2 line = +5. weight 1line = 1t. 2 line =2.5 or like this. It's just logic, when u got energy, and u totaly needs it for battle, u will get "addons" for bring more energy...

Apparently new system encourages to use additional tonnage for different types of weapon rather than something boat-like, which is making the game closer to its tabletop origin. Since overall DPS will be reduced, assaults will compensate lower alphas by greater survivability.

[LORD ORION]

The system is ********.

The only thing you've done is made an alpha cycle that starts with a 30ish point mech optimal laser vomit, followed nearly immediately by as much dakka as your mech can support to minimize heat penalty.
eg: This mech is going to wreck your face all day long. The initial las vomit / gauss is going to open your armor up, and then it will las vomit, and las vomit and las vomit, until the gauss is ready again.

Also, just exactly how do you use SRMs with any other weapons without incurring a massive heat draw penalty up the wazoo? DPS torso twist ballet? O'Tay PGI lol.

Rediculous.

[Talos7]

First impression, not bad.

Light 'mechs need a smaller energy reserve than Assaults. Perhaps something scale-able by weight class.

Now that Gauss cool down is going to take some getting used to...

[LORD ORION]

Wintersdark, on 18 August 2016 - 03:06 PM, said:

Heh so this system actually makes dual ac20 better. Without heat penalty, firing one gets you to 20, 0.5 seconds takes you down to 10 where the second puts you to 30.

As such, used conservatively, dual ac20 is identical, and if you alpha it's actually more forgiving.

That's a pretty shallow look at it.

You double tap your UAC 20 and get 5 heat penalty.
But now try and fire any other weapon at the same time.

UAC 20 is a terrible weapon now, there are far better weapon combos.

[Gentleman Reaper]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 August 2016 - 01:33 PM, said:

It definitely seems more convoluted then ghost heat, but it looks like max DPS is essentially 2 UAC5s and 2 AC5s.

I'm glad they listened to all my bitching about AC5s, but still, that **** is going to wreck, and Clan ER PPCs got the shaft. Take the splash garbage away and count it for 10 damage please.

How the hell is it more convoluted?!? You actually get a UI element for it now and it has consistent draw/damage across most weapons. As opposed to ghost heat being: 4LPL to 3 PPC, 2 AC20 to 5 AC5, etc. Every post you make I take you less seriously...

[charov]

ARM32, on 18 August 2016 - 08:48 PM, said:

Ok, new "energy draw" stuff not that bad as "lock target to get full distance from lasers", but, still some strange stuffs.
1 - why it's 30 energy and 20 per/sec for everyone? From locust to kodiak... Literaly - locust don't needs this energy, Kodiak with 30 - "bottlenecked" like GTX1080 on 1core AMD cpu... So, why not to give like: setuped engine = energy cap? Like: XL 400 = 40 eng/points, standard 190 = 19, XL 355 = 35.5 points. And stuff like energy recharge = ~1/2 on XL and ~1\3 on std, like XL 400 = 40 eng point and 20 points per/sec on recharge, std 300 = 30 eng points and 10 on recharge per second. (not balanced, just example).

'cause it's a test. I hope they use a gradual scale with steps of 5 tons later.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gentleman Reaper, on 18 August 2016 - 09:49 PM, said:

How the hell is it more convoluted?!? You actually get a UI element for it now and it has consistent draw/damage across most weapons. As opposed to ghost heat being: 4LPL to 3 PPC, 2 AC20 to 5 AC5, etc. Every post you make I take you less seriously...

After thinking about it a bit its not that convoluted, but I'm still not a huge fan. With some tweaks it could be tolerable. I think giving assaults a little more energy to work with and giving lasers a light energy draw (like .85 energy per 1 damage) would make better.

Also, remember that ghost heat could have a UI element as well, that's not a specific thing to energy draw.

But honestly numbers of weapons isn't that convoluted either..

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 18 August 2016 - 10:01 PM.

[Pat Kell]

**This is the end of the brawlers as we know it*** come on, sing along guys.

It's time to go back to the days of poptarts and snipers.

What I don't understand is if what they wanted to do was increase the time it took to kill a mech, why not just decrease the damage of every weapon? Why would they create another heat scale system on top of what we already have to further increase the difficulty of understanding this system? This quite frankly makes no system to me.

I haven't tried this out on the PTS yet, so I will gladly admit that I don't really know what I am talking about but this scares the crap out of me. This will almost certainly change the way our unit plays and it wouldn't surprise me if we cease to even be an entity in MWO because it will completely nerf the way we play. Brawlers will be absolutely obsolete. We will have to completely change our strategies and I don't know if we will be capable of doing this.

[dranozir]

I dont understand this new mechanic. It add confuse to game.

You shoud add new weapon or new mod. ( duel mod for example ! )

[Crushko]

Positive:

- Gauss charge gone, now we need a nice visual weapon effect and it could be like in MW 4.
- AC 5 nerf (think this will also apply to UAC 5). (U)AC 5 were imba combared to 2/10/20s.

Negative:

- The whole premise of doing 30 (20) dmg per second feels incredibly limiting.
- Double tapping UACs will eventually not feel good any longer, but punished by default.
- Seems to be built around quad UAC 5s by max, bigger Dakka builds like for example the Dire Wolf can support will be punished.
- High Alpha splat builds like the Atlas can do, that are more for fun anyway and high risk/reward as you are screwed at distance wont be viable.
- If I can do 30 (20) dps, Assaults then have the same optimal firepower as a Heavy or a Medium. Then the only question is: Do I want more speed or more armor. Up to now piloting a 100 ton mech meant more firepower, without getting punished other than the low speed.

Closing thoughts:

I think its risky in a 3 years old game to do such a drastic change that can alienate players.
More so that its not needed. People will always "hide and poke" as the (de-) acceleration in this game allows it and the LRMs flying a ballistic curve demand it.

Going forward I suggest to drop the power draw system alltogether or at least to increase the number of power draw based on mech weight and hard points. Otherwise why should I use a slower Dire Wolf over a faster Kodiak, if I got punished for using 5-6 ballistic slots over the Kodiak's 4?

I think that what this sytem tries to achieve can better be achieved by classic balancing changes and the AC 5 nerf and Gauss change go in the right direction.

Edited by Crushko, 18 August 2016 - 10:39 PM.

[TheLuc]

From what I understand its a system that for every point of damage made its one point of power less from you 30 points reserve, which the reserve recharge over time. while still having the heat system and adding this power draw thing, seems to me it will slow down pace of game play but not by a big margin.

with all the comments here, so far I think my Mechs wont be affected at all.

In any case MWO will remain just an arena shooter and should have been called SolarisVII Online

[Appogee]

I was looking forward to Energy Draw.

But can someone tell me why using more than my Mech's 'energy quota' causes it to overheat...? That makes no sense to me. It just feels like we added an illogical multiplier to the already illogical mechanic called Ghost Heat.


If there's not enough energy in reserve, then the weapons just shouldn't fire, should they? I thought that's how it would work.

[Gas Guzzler]

Appogee, on 18 August 2016 - 10:47 PM, said:

I was looking forward to Energy Draw.

But can someone tell me why using more than my Mech's 'energy quota' causes it to overheat...? That makes no sense to me. It just feels like we added an illogical multiplier to the already illogical mechanic called Ghost Heat.


If there's not enough energy in reserve, then the weapons just shouldn't fire, should they? I thought that's how it would work.

I tried to tell you how it would work but you thought I was making it up.

[Appogee]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 August 2016 - 10:52 PM, said:

I tried to tell you how it would work but you thought I was making it up.

I am asking a different question. I am asking: why does it work that way?

How are you able to fire a weapon when you don't have any energy in reserve? And why does firing when you are low on energy cause a Mech to get hotter?

(Why not make it that, when you are out of energy, you can't fire. That would at least be logical.)

Edited by Appogee, 18 August 2016 - 10:59 PM.

[Jaqir]

I'm liking this. While the values most likely will need adjusting, the core concept seems solid enough and allows for future expanding. Different engine sizes and/or 'mech classes (and/or combinations of the two) having different energy output values comes to mind, running at top speed putting more drain on your energy reserves... Options, options.

For now though, getting the base concept working would be cool. A bit of added resource management with the plus side offering a future balancing mechanism a lot better than GHOST-whatever.

Appogee, on 18 August 2016 - 10:58 PM, said:

I am asking a different question. I am asking: why does it work that way?

How are you able to fire a weapon when you don't have any energy in reserve? And why does firing when you are low on energy cause a Mech to get hotter?

(Why not make it that, when you are out of energy, you can't fire. That would at least be logical.)

Consider the energy limit "a safety feature". You can bypass it with override, but that'll put more stress on your engine than it's designed to safely handle, causing more heat. You're not running out of juice as such, you're just using a lot more than you should in order to keep the warranty from going void.

Edited by Jaqir, 18 August 2016 - 11:12 PM.