18 replies to this topic

[XX Sulla XX]

Seems for some reason the range of the alphas are not considered. A 1000 range alpha off pinpoint 30dmg should cost more energy than a 100 range of 30dmg pint point.

[jweltsch]

XX Sulla XX, on 18 August 2016 - 08:35 PM, said:

Seems for some reason the range of the alphas are not considered. A 1000 range alpha off pinpoint 30dmg should cost more energy than a 100 range of 30dmg pint point.

Not terribly hard to understand and not sure how devs missed it. Then again same group that turns the best brawl map into a long ranged map for no real reason.

[Gas Guzzler]

Range... and PPFLD vs lasers... both should be considered.

[jweltsch]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 August 2016 - 08:42 PM, said:

Range... and PPFLD vs lasers... both should be considered.

Yes, it should have been.... as should have ammo vs non, why risk an ammo explosion when a ppc is just as good now?

[JC Daxion]

XX Sulla XX, on 18 August 2016 - 08:35 PM, said:

Seems for some reason the range of the alphas are not considered. A 1000 range alpha off pinpoint 30dmg should cost more energy than a 100 range of 30dmg pint point.

I agree, but that is why it is PTS..


In the longer run, they can tweak the energy draw rates.. But for a first try, normalizing was a smart move..

[Tiantara]

jweltsch, on 18 August 2016 - 08:44 PM, said:

Yes, it should have been.... as should have ammo vs non, why risk an ammo explosion when a ppc is just as good now?

- Maybe because you still get heat from PPC, and overheat when take all energy points. And with ballistic you only use energy pointa and heat up when they depleted?

[Doctor Dinosaur]

Problem is, in the past you paid a tax on the range in form of heat, making small lasers "better" in the prefered range than large lasers.
This holds no longer true, nerfing small lasers into the ground.
Right now the only big difference between large lasers and small ones in a short range encounter is the different burn time and their weight.

[Karl Streiger]

To be fair - they said they will tweak the system.
For Energy Drain.... but I hope it is not again a PPC does this, Small Laser does this... but a global formula that modifys the energy drain.
for example maximum range/1000 * damage * energy drain modifier

(although it would again increase drastically the boating efficiency of small laser boats - the 10 SPL build should work almost uncontested under power draw. (12 is still possible with the same fire pattern)

so the second global modifer should be the number of weapons used (0.6 * e (0.25x)) - seems fair
so a final energy drain formula should look like this

Damage * weapontype modifer * MAX(0.625;Maxrange/1000) * 0.6*EXP(0.25*number)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 18 August 2016 - 11:07 PM.

[Leone]

I disagree. You still have quicker reload times on your small lasers an less heat usage. The twelve ER small laser nova is still a murder machine.

~Leone.

[Kuaron]

This was from the very beginning the risk with this energy draw idea:
Weapons already had a very differentiated advantage and disadvantage ecosystem: Long lasers are hotter than short lasers, ballistics are long and cold but heavy with all their ammo, etc. Just introducing a flat damage cap doesn't fit well, ofc.
But what parameters are to consider for the energy drain factor, if they are all already considered in heat and weight?

[jweltsch]

Leone, on 18 August 2016 - 11:36 PM, said:

I disagree. You still have quicker reload times on your small lasers an less heat usage. The twelve ER small laser nova is still a murder machine.

~Leone.

Except the long range can shoot you across the map, can still hit you in close range, and will no longer have the heat scale available to make up for the damage hes done while closing. Range matters and MUST be accounted for in this system or it is fail. Ammo or not matters and should be accounted for or it will fail. You know the easiest way they could have done this? lower max heat cap greatly increase dissipation, and then you wouldnt need to screw with all the other balance ecosystems that already exist.

[Brizna]

Many things that should be considered aren't.

In a way the current ghost heat system accounts for them all after years of balancing. It is behind the decision of allowing 3 IS large lasers while only 2 of clans. Or the reason why we allow 6 medium lasers and not 8 or 4. You can not simply measure the portential of a weapon in raw damage and you can not simply say 0.75 for scatter weapons, an SRM4+Art has nothing to do with a cSRM6 in terms of precision.

If energy draw is going to stay each weapon is going to need to be carefully balanced and it will take time.

Other than that the idea of stream lining ghost heat has merit, just be more smart about it. You don't need to play test this in its current form to know it is broken.

[Phyrce]

Doctor Dinosaur, on 18 August 2016 - 10:37 PM, said:

Problem is, in the past you paid a tax on the range in form of heat, making small lasers "better" in the prefered range than large lasers.
This holds no longer true, nerfing small lasers into the ground.
Right now the only big difference between large lasers and small ones in a short range encounter is the different burn time and their weight.

This simply isn't true. The energy system is not replacing heat, larger lasers still generate a much higher value of heat. Small lasers can still be a much better option specially with their 1;1 energy draw they can do 30 point alphas before effected by ghost heat/energy draw

[C E Dwyer]

A large laser still generates the same heat as does an ERPPC.

What power draw does is regulate on damage, not on numbers, of weapons before the additional heat is produced.

using IS ML amd LL as an example.

You can still fire three LL and not generate additional heat, you can still fire six ML and not be effected by additional heat from power draw.

Firing two Ac20 will effect you the same as before firing one ac20 and one ac10 will generate the same heat it did before.

I'm sorry gentlemen but many of your arguments are just not valid.

At the current level of 30 I am finding very limited if any changes from the old way

[Signal27]

XX Sulla XX, on 18 August 2016 - 08:35 PM, said:

Seems for some reason the range of the alphas are not considered. A 1000 range alpha off pinpoint 30dmg should cost more energy than a 100 range of 30dmg pint point.

Lasers with greater range are the ones that are heavier and take up more space, so that's probably how those are already balanced.

Autocannons, of course, have shorter range the heavier they get. This is offset by their rate of fire and their damage isn't spread out over the course of a beam duration.

So, while I actually do agree that range should be a factor in power draw, I don't think the adjustment to power draw for each weapon should be all that severe. Like a point or two.

[tangles 253]

i think we should just stick to walking before running at the very least.

incorporating ranges into power draw would be a nightmare to try and get your head around in practice.

also, as Sig said, the range is somewhat already taken into account by the weight and size of the weapons.

so it's kinda a null point. adding range into the equation is one step to far down the path of over-complicated unnecessary haberdashery

[Kaptain]

I agree with the OP. At the very least the power draw of PPCs should be increased.

Id suggest removal of the point five draw to heat divider.
Reducing srm and lrm draw even further
and increasing PPC draw

That would be a good start imo.

[zeves]

can we first try and get ppcs to be used for more than nostalgia before we nerf them?
I know when people say ppcs they mean Eppc and ppcs are long forgotten but still.

Edited by zeves, 19 August 2016 - 05:17 AM.

[Paigan]

XX Sulla XX, on 18 August 2016 - 08:35 PM, said:

Seems for some reason the range of the alphas are not considered. A 1000 range alpha off pinpoint 30dmg should cost more energy than a 100 range of 30dmg pint point.

Coming up next:

- Why do pulse lasers require the same energy as ER do?
- LBX are still $hit. 0.75 energy does nowhere near make them as good as pin point AC damage
- LRM5 are still WAY better than LRm20
- And why do ACs require the same amount of "energy" as lasers do? It's not "energy" at all, it's an abstract damage-threshold-value.