28 replies to this topic

[His Holiness Pope Buster]

What about tying the alpha cap to the mech class/tonnage? For example, lights - 30 damage, mediums 35 damage, heavies - 40 damage, assaults - 45 damage. Thoughts?

[Glaive-]

I feel like that would hardly impact the game at all then.

[Lorian Sunrider]

It becomes really hard to give assaults more without screwing over the other weight classes. I'm not sure how they are gonna do it.

[His Holiness Pope Buster]

Lorian Sunrider, on 18 August 2016 - 08:41 PM, said:

It becomes really hard to give assaults more without screwing over the other weight classes. I'm not sure how they are gonna do it.

Give the lighter classes more mobility. This would be their advantage. How easy is it to take out a Dire Wolf with a light? Would the additional alpha room make that much of a difference?

armyunit, on 18 August 2016 - 08:36 PM, said:

I feel like that would hardly impact the game at all then.

Simply adjust the alpha cap values so that they do make a difference. Doesn't it make sense that a larger mech has a larger potential to do damage?

[Khobai]

Quote

Doesn't it make sense that a larger mech has a larger potential to do damage?

It certainly makes sense to have assaults do more damage than anything else.

The problem is the heavy weight class. You need to keep the damage of the heavy weight class in check so its countered properly by assault weight class.

One of the biggest problems we had before is that heavies could output too much damage and that combined with their superior speed and hitboxes made them outright better than assaults.

Assaults need to counter heavies. So if you adjust the damage caps for each weight class it needs to be done in a way that keeps assaults on top for damage. Although the Kodiak probably needs special treatment.

Edited by Khobai, 18 August 2016 - 10:23 PM.

[Uncle Stickyfinger]

Why not tie alpha cap to tonnage, and recharge as well? ie the lights mediums get higher recharge rates but the heavies assaults have larger "pools"? So the lights can focus on dps builds and the assaults can be alpha monsters?

Edited by Uncle Stickyfinger, 18 August 2016 - 10:58 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

I support the OP's suggestion.

I might suggest also tweaking the laser energy to damage ratio to something slightly under 1. There is a reason PPCs doing 30 damage is better than 3 LPLs doing 30 damage...

[627]

I don't see a reason for this. Bigger mechs already have bigger heat caps thanks to more heatsinks they can equip. No need to gimp lighter mechs with a penalty system and let the bigger mechs get away with a smile.

And everyone arguing with engine size and weight should just think about crit spaces. Every mech has the same amount of those no matter how big they are. Same goes for the initial heat cap.

Light mechs were never the reason for ghost heat, it was always heavies and assaults.

[DrxAbstract]

Uncle Stickyfinger, on 18 August 2016 - 10:57 PM, said:

Why not tie alpha cap to tonnage, and recharge as well? ie the lights mediums get higher recharge rates but the heavies assaults have larger "pools"? So the lights can focus on dps builds and the assaults can be alpha monsters?

Not all Lights have the hardpoints/layout for DPS builds and not all Assaults have the hardpoints/layout for Alpha builds.

The biggest issue is Lights that are 'problematic' had too high an Alpha while problematic Heavies had too much DPS/Alpha with Assaults only recently touching on DPS. Historically and until the last few months, concerning Lights and Assaults specifically, it was reversed. Lights had too much DPS and Assaults had too much Alpha... While Heavies still had too much DPS/Alpha.

Now Light DPS builds, along with their survivability, have been nerfed into the ground and Heavies are still roaming the battelfield unchecked with Assaults close on their heels. Effective builds from each weight class, per variant, has never been smaller than it is now. Hundreds of Mechs+Variants, only 25 +/- range from average to OP with the rest solidly in the mediocre to downright awful range... Something tells me generalized augmentations arent going to fix those Mechs as they clearly need individual attention.

[Gas Guzzler]

627, on 18 August 2016 - 11:05 PM, said:

I don't see a reason for this. Bigger mechs already have bigger heat caps thanks to more heatsinks they can equip. No need to gimp lighter mechs with a penalty system and let the bigger mechs get away with a smile.

And everyone arguing with engine size and weight should just think about crit spaces. Every mech has the same amount of those no matter how big they are. Same goes for the initial heat cap.

Light mechs were never the reason for ghost heat, it was always heavies and assaults.

There is not really a point to take an assault though. Like you say, crit spaces are important, assaults can't just keep stacking on DHS to make up for the extra ghost heat of more weapons.

[Uncle Stickyfinger]

Thanks for the informative reply DrxAbstract. Generalities probably aren't the best solution. But these types of changes could, if used as quirks, help individual chassis that struggle if applied judiciously, yes? (yes I know that's a whole lot more complicated and subject to poor implementation but it could get some of the less competitive builds out of mothballs if they had bonuses other chassis did not)

[Deathlike]

DrxAbstract, on 18 August 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

Not all Lights have the hardpoints/layout for DPS builds and not all Assaults have the hardpoints/layout for Alpha builds.

The biggest issue is Lights that are 'problematic' had too high an Alpha while problematic Heavies had too much DPS/Alpha with Assaults only recently touching on DPS. Historically and until the last few months, concerning Lights and Assaults specifically, it was reversed. Lights had too much DPS and Assaults had too much Alpha... While Heavies still had too much DPS/Alpha.

Now Light DPS builds, along with their survivability, have been nerfed into the ground and Heavies are still roaming the battelfield unchecked with Assaults close on their heels. Effective builds from each weight class, per variant, has never been smaller than it is now. Hundreds of Mechs+Variants, only 25 +/- range from average to OP with the rest solidly in the mediocre to downright awful range... Something tells me generalized augmentations arent going to fix those Mechs as they clearly need individual attention.

There was literally no instance in this gmae where Lights had super incredible DPS, and that includes the previously overquirked Oxide.

Edited by Deathlike, 18 August 2016 - 11:32 PM.

[DrxAbstract]

Deathlike, on 18 August 2016 - 11:31 PM, said:

There was literally no instance in this gmae where Lights had super incredible DPS, and that includes the previously overquirked Oxide.

Hence the 'problematic', meaning it iss a highly subjective opinion held by numerous whiners that PGI seems to share that I do not.

[Yellonet]

NO! NO! NO! Giving a higher energy cap to larger mechs would destroy much of the good with energy draw.

The advantage of big mechs is to have more weapons, larger weapons and more armour. Small mechs could pull off 30 point alpha, but then have to wait for complete cooldown, while big mechs can have more groups with 30 point damage in each, thus having a much greater dps.

Edited by Yellonet, 19 August 2016 - 12:00 AM.

[LowSubmarino]

Its completly pointless to throw in all kinds of alterations at a point where they are focusing on testing out this one feature.

Just pointless

[DerMaulwurf]

People have way too much tunnel vision regarding the number 30.

The penalties for exceeding the cap are small. Builds with 40 or 50 point pinpoint alphas look manageable. You might need a few more heat sinks, but that's all.

[627]

Gas Guzzler, on 18 August 2016 - 11:26 PM, said:

There is not really a point to take an assault though. Like you say, crit spaces are important, assaults can't just keep stacking on DHS to make up for the extra ghost heat of more weapons.

Well you can oat bigger weapons and get away with em instead of exploding as it is now. At least PPCs are in an interesting spot now.

[DrxAbstract]

DerMaulwurf, on 19 August 2016 - 12:06 AM, said:

People have way too much tunnel vision regarding the number 30.

The penalties for exceeding the cap are small. Builds with 40 or 50 point pinpoint alphas look manageable. You might need a few more heat sinks, but that's all.

A few more heat sinks that you're going to put... where? And with what tonnage? Most builds capable of the mid-40's to low-60's Laser-based Alphas are already maxed out on space and tonnage and can only manage 2-3 back-to-back Alphas with another after a few seconds of cooling down. This is entirely absent of Ghost Heat penalty, mind you.

Those same builds will, when firing Alphas, incur an additional 5(40dmg) to 17(64dmg) Heat per shot. For IS Laser vomits that have a dissipation of 3.59H/Sec(18 DHS) to 4.23H/Sec(22 DHS), that's an average extra 1-4 seconds of recovery time per Alpha--That is absolutely huge in a brawl and heavy fighting scenarios. The only time it would really go unnoticed is during those slow-paced exchanges. But the moment you get into the sh** you're definitely going to notice the difference, as in you can still drop a couple (2-3) bombs on the first guy that comes at you, but unlike now, you wont be winding up another, popping coolshot and dropping one more before having to back off. You'll either have to stagger your shots or take less of them... That's a mighty impressive leash for Laser vomits in general, the KDK and a smattering of others.

In the end, bads will be bads and good players will still wreck faces... /shrug.

[Lily from animove]

I think they may use this for balance purposes, some mechs will get more and some less.

in the end and for now without knowing the energy regenartion we will ahve to see how it turns out.

[Yosharian]

His Holiness Pope Buster, on 18 August 2016 - 08:30 PM, said:

What about tying the alpha cap to the mech class/tonnage? For example, lights - 30 damage, mediums 35 damage, heavies - 40 damage, assaults - 45 damage. Thoughts?

Are you kidding? This would allow assaults to actually be better at something than heavies, that's not what MWO is about