127 replies to this topic

[Davegt27]

VK I agree with you but they wont listen

they will beat the dead horse or pug until the very end

I am a solo Pug but when phase 3 started I went unit since I have my own unit and I did not want to give up my unit tag

also I did not want to go easy mode (if you could even call it that)

one solution is to force all players into units

they sure ended the split que pretty quickly lol no patches no adjustments just
we need more targets for the pre-made groups lol

[DarklightCA]

Nightshade24, on 21 August 2016 - 02:55 AM, said:

It was designed for it, but it rarely happens... tell me, if they removed pugs and smaller groups in FP and force 12 mans only. How often do you think you will see games?...

When did I say they should force 12 man's only? You are putting words in my mouth. They allowed everybody to play Faction Play as they should but it's obviously designed with Units and Unit groups in mind.

Vasili Kerensky, on 21 August 2016 - 04:27 AM, said:

When will you people get that the fact that you are good and organized players, doesn't grant you any rights? You don't have the right to demand better performance from every kid and casual who logs to play a FTP game. You don't have the right to stomp over pathetic pugs full of pathetic casuals. FP is crap and it needs fixing. The demand for people to get better and organized ISN'T the way to fix things. Appealing or demanding from people to change NEVER produces results. It's the mechanics that need to change, not the people because the latter WON'T happen.

If things don't change, in the end the only losers are going to be you - the veterans who love this game and have invested a lot of time and effort into it. For how long will the pathetic casuals log into this crap FP to get stomped by you? Some will stay and get better but the majority will forget there is a Faction Play button or they'll drift away to other games where they'll feel they're doing better. If you don't cater to useless and crap players by giving them their own environment, the game and its veterans will cry in the end. The kid and the pathetic casual will be in another game pushing buttons and typing crap and won't mind.

When did I say I DEMANDED performance? You are complaining about being stomped, people are giving you advice on how to prevent that and you are flat out ignoring it and choosing to keep complaining and asking PGI to solve all your problems for you. I also do have the right to stomp over pugs because those pugs entered a gamemode that has no match maker in a environment heavily set out for large groups. As much as I would rather be fighting Units, I can't stop those pugs from playing the gamemode anymore than you can stop premade groups from playing it.

FP is crap and it does need fixing but that fixing isn't about another failed separate queue for solo player whiners who cannot adapt. If this game was as popular as World of Tanks with the population they have I honestly wouldn't care how many queue's they setup but MWO is not World of Tanks and it's population is not infinite. No matter how much I'd rather be fighting other premade groups or how much you'd rather be fighting other solo players *cough* Quick Play *cough*, splitting the already low population only causes more problems.

Honestly I couldn't care less if they quit at this point. Again they CHOSE to enter that environment, they CHOSE to limit themselves by playing as a solo player, with quite a lot of them CHOOSING to do so with trial mechs or really bad builds, who some of them CHOOSE to not cooperate with their team. The fact they lose games is not shocking in the least and if they can't adapt than there wasn't anything I can do anyways. Calling them special snow flakes and catering to their every demand isn't going to help this gamemode either.

Edited by DarklightCA, 21 August 2016 - 06:05 AM.

[vandalhooch]

Vasili Kerensky, on 21 August 2016 - 04:27 AM, said:

When will you people get that the fact that you are good and organized players, doesn't grant you any rights? You don't have the right to demand better performance from every kid and casual who logs to play a FTP game.

Who's demanding that? Strawman is full of straw.

The FP veteran's are trying to help you understand why you keep getting stomped in the unit centric mode of this game.

Quote

You don't have the right to stomp over pathetic pugs full of pathetic casuals.

Who said the unit players want that? Most of the organized units have long since moved on to other games because they got tired of facing players who simply weren't ready for FP.

Quote

FP is crap and it needs fixing. The demand for people to get better and organized ISN'T the way to fix things. Appealing or demanding from people to change NEVER produces results. It's the mechanics that need to change, not the people because the latter WON'T happen.

In other words, the lore enthusiasts and people who enjoy playing this game with a close group of friends can just screw off because you don't want to play with others.

Quote

If things don't change, in the end the only losers are going to be you - the veterans who love this game and have invested a lot of time and effort into it. For how long will the pathetic casuals log into this crap FP to get stomped by you?

It's been 20 months so far.

BTW: I love the self-loathing of "pathetic casuals."

Quote

Some will stay and get better but the majority will forget there is a Faction Play button or they'll drift away to other games where they'll feel they're doing better. If you don't cater to useless and crap players by giving them their own environment, the game and its veterans will cry in the end. The kid and the pathetic casual will be in another game pushing buttons and typing crap and won't mind.

Cartman said it better.

Davegt27, on 21 August 2016 - 05:02 AM, said:

VK I agree with you but they wont listen

they will beat the dead horse or pug until the very end

I am a solo Pug but when phase 3 started I went unit since I have my own unit and I did not want to give up my unit tag

also I did not want to go easy mode (if you could even call it that)

one solution is to force all players into units

they sure ended the split que pretty quickly lol no patches no adjustments just
we need more targets for the pre-made groups lol

Actually, it was the non-unit queue that was dead. Most of the decent players created their own solo units in order to join into the more steady unit queue. I happily abandoned my unitless alt account when they re-merged the systems.

[Deathlike]

I've written my own solution here - http://mwomercs.com/...ration-problem/

Feel free to poop on it or criticize as you see fit.

Outside of trying fix the gamemode (which is sorely needed about all else), breaking down the groups/playersizes in order to properly integrate solo players (ideally those that have not worked with it a team) and limited group sizes, but also providing incentives... will allow a better setup for all those involved.

I will repeat this - it will not fix stomps. The point of the design is to train new players/groups through the use of more experienced teams and players. Players who refuse to work together will be exposed, and nothing that you can do, INCLUDING a MM (have you seen quick play WITH its MM?) that would solve the problem of people being bad teammates.

[Spider00x]

My unit is a living example of a buncha pugs who got tired of being stomped by 12 mans over and over again and formed a unit to combat them, after months of hard work we perform on a comp level and we do the stomping of 12 mans or otherwise. It was a hard road, having people who are willing to take their lumps and drop call was crucial so was working with your teamspeak community and making friends, 12 pugs who push when someone calls it over VOIP is better than 75% of the teams out there, thats a good place to start. Also finding a mentor like I did when I first started drop calling helped as well. Do some traveling drop with some comp teams, watch twitch learn some basic strats come back to your group of friends and apply what you learned.

When Russ spit the ques the only thing that happened was solo players formed 1 man units and got back in the group que it did nothing to help the game mode. FW is not intended for anything but unit and group play it was designed as end game material for people who have either had their fill or mastered quickplay.

Im not trying to flame you bro, but this just seems like old territory.

Edited by Spider00x, 21 August 2016 - 11:05 AM.

[Davegt27]

Quote

Actually, it was the non-unit queue that was dead. Most of the decent players created their own solo units in order to join into the more steady unit queue. I happily abandoned my unitless alt account when they re-merged the systems.

yeah I know (the non unit area had to be empty based on the choices players had to make)

a player had to decide at the start of phase 3 which direction they would go

I picked unit even though I knew it was a loaded question
the way PGI did that instantly diluted the non-unit or solo pug pool of players
but hey its there game

lastly the vast majority of solo players don't complain they take there licks month after month
then they just leave

[vandalhooch]

Davegt27, on 21 August 2016 - 11:14 AM, said:

yeah I know (the non unit area had to be empty based on the choices players had to make)

a player had to decide at the start of phase 3 which direction they would go

I picked unit even though I knew it was a loaded question
the way PGI did that instantly diluted the non-unit or solo pug pool of players
but hey its there game

lastly the vast majority of solo players don't complain they take there licks month after month
then they just leave

They had to do it that way to prevent unit players from sync-dropping in the "solo" queue.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Vasili Kerensky, on 19 August 2016 - 04:55 AM, said:

Nice argument but it's crap. Not all people have the time or the desire to invest time and effort into keeping regular gaming hours and become semi-professional players. That's why they're called casuals and they probably are and will continue to be the majority of the population..

What's crap is this statement. There are plenty of units out there that are quite happy to have solo players come and play with them without joining. And there are plenty of solo players who do just that.

[Tarl Cabot]

FP is not the centerpiece of MWO, even though when MWO started that is what many thought it would be. And without the current solo/group queue that is separate from FP.

As for 12-man or units vs PUGs, pugs do not attack planets (there are exceptions), units attack planets, and since they are a unit they are willing to sit/Ghost drop cause they KNOW the pugs will come, like moths to the flame. Know what your faction units are doing, if there are any running at the time? They are attacking a planet, waiting for the same thing.

FP is barely a minimal viable byproduct. You get to know what map you are dropping on but you have no idea if you facing a unit or a bunch of pugs or a mix of both. Now, would pugs still drop on a planet if they knew in the last hour units of 6+ SJR/228/MS/etc had or are dropping on the planet? Maybe not as many but many would still come, but would it be enough to actually form up enough for a drop? Or could said units start dropping in smaller groupings on different planets so their unit names do not show up?

In the end though, as long as there is an actual solo/group queue that is not linked into FP, FP will not get the population except during events.

[BearFlag]

DarklightCA, on 21 August 2016 - 05:29 AM, said:

They allowed everybody to play Faction Play as they should but it's obviously designed with Units and Unit groups in mind.

This sentence (not picking on you) sums up the hypocrisy of groups. If it was designed for groups, that is what it would be - groups only. But it's not. Any new player with trials can drop in. So you could just as readily say it was "designed" for non-unit, new players with un-elited mechs. If "Call to Arms" isn't "designed" to draw in solos, then I'm missing something. With such wildly unbalanced pools of people involved, one can only say it was designed to fail.

Mission Accomplished.

In case anyone missed the so-called round table, FW is being put out to pasture. Russ was clear. One last "big fix" ("buckets") and then "iterate" over what's already there. He's tired of it (and so are 90% of his customers). The lackluster response to Phase 3 was a blow to them, I think. It's too bad because Phase 3 had some neat stuff in it. But PGI's inability to fix (or even recognize?) serious problems is a handicap that no amount of coolness can overcome. Long Tom was an unmitigated disaster which months later Russ was STILL trying to defend. It's no surprise then that a year and a half later, not one of the major problems in FW has been fixed:

Balance, pug stomps
one, repetitive mode
carbon copy, choke point maps
double carnage (96 mechs in 30 mins v. 24 in 15 QP)
Spawn camping
and more...

ALL of these problems were emblazoned on the forums within the first two months of release. None fixed. Indeed, when PGI came out with new FW maps, it was the same, already tired, mode with the same stupid gun with the same fun-choking choke points. They halfheartedly tried fix spawn camping with tweaks. They played with tonnage. They nerfed clan laser range.

But they fixed nothing. These problems conspire to create poor gameplay. The common refrain, heard over and over from the 90%, is it's not fun. I demonstrated this in just one thread. I think it was Bombadil's thread (or another connected with the round table). I quoted about dozen people who used these very words (or worse). In just one thread.

THIS is THE major problem with 48v48 Invasion mode. And we largely know the causes. It ain't buckets. It's not even pug stomps (only). It's poor gameplay (list above), lack of variety, lack of immersion.

And there is no indication that PGI intends to address these fatal flaws. Quite the opposite. Buckets, iterations. It's sad as I believe FW is, or could have been, the beating heart of MWO. Enjoy a niche retirement, Faction Warfare. You coulda been a contender.

[Omaha]

Kurbeks, on 19 August 2016 - 08:20 AM, said:

On top of that solo players can be ultra-comp and kill easily all enemy team of pugs in scouting mode.

Annnnd are they rewarded as such? The unit only MC thing really blew me away. Considering the scouting enhancements. Getting wins on scouting was almost a win for invasion, or a very good defense against planet attacks.

There was something else happening during the split queue thing if I remember as well.. There was also reason why solo queue was making solo units too. I don't think they gave it enough time to settle. Everyone was attempting scouting. I think the problem was none were queuing invasion so they make solo units to get invasion matches.

For me anyways, not even being able to achieve MC (The Ultimate Reward!) really made me feel like I was never even thought of or even attempted to be thought of for this faction mode. It hurt because I'm die hard falcon too. So it's like why even bother during the split queue. There was no incentive for solo's to even play split queue anyways.

Why make split queue and only offer mc rewards for units? ONE SIDE OF QUEUE. When there is 2 queues happening? Look at participation of events with MC attached to them...

Edited by Omaha, 21 August 2016 - 03:02 PM.

[Zolaz]

There doesnt need to be a single player queue for FP. I would prefer it, if they didnt allow trials in FP either. Ok, maybe for Loyalists but Freelancers and Mercs should bring their own mechs.

[DarklightCA]

BearFlag, on 21 August 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

This sentence (not picking on you) sums up the hypocrisy of groups. If it was designed for groups, that is what it would be - groups only. But it's not. Any new player with trials can drop in. So you could just as readily say it was "designed" for non-unit, new players with un-elited mechs. If "Call to Arms" isn't "designed" to draw in solos, then I'm missing something. With such wildly unbalanced pools of people involved, one can only say it was designed to fail.

What part about a PLANETARY CONQUEST gamemode where ONLY units can conquer planets is about non-unit players? What part about the non-match making environment where groups are not limited or nerfed is about solo players? PGI allowed solo players in the gamemode because they wanted to include them but the entire design of the gamemode is heavily in favor of Unit/group players. Nothing about Faction Play is solo player friendly.

[Cox Devalis]

If you are new to FP or if you are bad/trial_mechs/LRM_pro, you will get farmed by good and smart pugs. Some top-FP players from units will move to pug queue just to get their 4k+ dmg matches, because they can't get high damage in large group. And you will suffer the same way like facing 8-12 premade.

The decision is - to know how to play FP, join a group, raise your skill.
If you don't have time for this, so I don't have time to play CW with you.
Why do I have to fight 1vs23 instead of 12vs12 while you are:
- running your lovely TBT-7M(C)?
- choosing Commando for the 1st drop and Atlas for the last?
- aiming to enemy's torso for 5 seconds?
- reinforcing and dying twice per wave?
- shooting gens instead of mechs?
- shooting enemies through my back?
- shooting straight to the gates, orbital gun?
- bringing LRM mechs to FP?
- facehugging enemies at your hot laservomit?
- running "casual" builds like ERLL-LRM10-SSRM2-MED.LASER-3xMG and ignoring the meta?
- ignoring the game mechanics?
and so on...

Join a unit. Talk to people, spend some time in mechlab, get effective builds, know your positions on the map that are really suitable for your mech. Act like a group, be organized and think about the matches you lost. Improve your tactics, move to another unit if you don't like guys you are playing with. Get an experience. Faction Play is the rare (speaking about session-MMO FPS games) place where you can make yourself prepared for an upcoming match.

[BearFlag]

DarklightCA, on 21 August 2016 - 03:26 PM, said:

What part ...? PGI allowed solo players in the gamemode ...

That would be the part.

[DarklightCA]

BearFlag, on 21 August 2016 - 04:20 PM, said:

That would be the part.

You are missing the point. Nothing about Faction Play is designed around solo play. Everything is designed around Unit/Group play. The fact PGI wanted to include everybody does not make it automaticly not designed for Unit/Group play. If they wanted it that way they would have setup a way of limiting groups like they do in Quick Play.

The fact they don't despite the many, many attempts at complaining about groups should give you a good indication on how they wanted Faction Play.

[Seamus Z Harper]

@OP NOPE!

Edited by Seamus Z Harper, 21 August 2016 - 10:53 PM.

[Nightshade24]

DarklightCA, on 21 August 2016 - 05:29 AM, said:

When did I say they should force 12 man's only? You are putting words in my mouth. They allowed everybody to play Faction Play as they should but it's obviously designed with Units and Unit groups in mind.

DarklightCA, on 21 August 2016 - 05:29 AM, said:

When did I say I DEMANDED performance? You are complaining about being stomped, people are giving you advice on how to prevent that and you are flat out ignoring it and choosing to keep complaining and asking PGI to solve all your problems for you. I also do have the right to stomp over pugs because those pugs entered a gamemode that has no match maker in a...

Talk about putting words in peoples mouths.
When did I get said advice? When did I start complaining to PGI to 'solve all my problems' ? etc.

DarklightCA, on 21 August 2016 - 05:29 AM, said:

FP is crap and it does need fixing but that fixing isn't about another failed separate queue for solo player whiners who cannot adapt. If this game was as popular as World of Tanks with the population they have I honestly wouldn't care how many queue's they setup but MWO is not World of Tanks and it's population is not infinite. No matter how much I'd rather be fighting other premade groups or how much you'd rather be fighting other solo players *cough* Quick Play *cough*, splitting the already low population only causes more problems.

Honestly I couldn't care less if they quit at this point. Again they CHOSE to enter that environment, they CHOSE to limit themselves by playing as a solo player, with quite a lot of them CHOOSING to do so with trial mechs or really bad builds, who some of them CHOOSE to not cooperate with their team. The fact they lose games is not shocking in the least and if they can't adapt than there wasn't anything I can do anyways. Calling them special snow flakes and catering to their every demand isn't going to help this gamemode either.

Didn't ask for another queue seperation- we do not have the player base large enough for that as I've stated.

DarklightCA, on 21 August 2016 - 05:29 AM, said:

No matter how much I'd rather be fighting other premade groups or how much you'd rather be fighting other solo players *cough* Quick Play *cough*,

No matter how much I'd rather be fighting other solo players or how much you'd rather be fighting other premade groups *cough* Tournaments *cough*


Now... you do not care if all but 12 mans leave FW? Welp, back to the statement of what I said about only 12 vs 12's... oh how lonely that is going to be ... But then again as you've said, you do not care less. However to be quite frank all those players who wanted to play FP and also PGI who decided against IGP and in the end bother to even put FP into the game for little to no returns or ways to make money off of it I guess they would care.

[LordNothing]

Gruinhardt, on 19 August 2016 - 06:07 AM, said:

Fact: We already had split queue in FP, with the release of phase 3. Not enough solo players were interested. This lead to long queue times in solo FP, eventually solo FP became a ghost town.

If any new player wants to play FP, they should really consider joining a unit. Most units are more than happy to help guide a new player.

i actually blame the lack of turnout on a number of things:

1. freelancer was a failure. if you are a freelancer you dont get to wait in a lobby, no you have to wait for calls to arms, which are easy to miss. it was not very intuitive how to join the game if you were a freelancer, and it was the default career path. so if you had never played before, you would have no clue what to do.

2. scouting. everyone was playing scouting because it was a new mode. fervor for scouting did not die down before the queues were re-merged. the players were there, they just weren't playing invasion. i did get a couple all pug invasion games and they were great.

3. there was an event held too soon to help promote phase3. before all the kinks were worked out. they should have waited a week or two before holding the event. mostly to iron out all the bugs. also the decision to remerge came before the event actually ran, so new players who would have enjoyed the event with a split queue instead got a merged queue, and therefore didnt stick around after the event (because they had a poor experience). had the queue remained split during the event, i bet those pugs would have enjoyed the mode, stuck around, and some of them would have joined units.

Edited by LordNothing, 22 August 2016 - 01:48 AM.

[Vasili Kerensky]

Darklight, Vandalhooch, Nightshade, you people are hopeless. All smug innuendo and verbal abuse and pretensions of superiority. I urge you to reread the opinions of your fellow veteran players in this thread.