17 replies to this topic

[Parashurama]

I feel assaults should benefit more than lights on the fire power scale.

I propose the following:

1 second recharge time for assaults.
1.5 second recharge time for heavies.
2.0 second recharge time for mediums.
2.5 second recharge time for lights.

Obviously the values need to be tested and tuned, but I think that would help the system.

[Tiantara]

-

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2.5 second recharge time for lights.

Most definitely kill them as mech class. So happens with

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1.5 second recharge time for heavies.
2.0 second recharge time for mediums.

Lets see... If you have shoot after depleted ED you got heat penalty. Nearly all light mech and medium have slow rate to take heat off. Simply to say - they hot and cool off too slow. Mech blows up even without turning of override function and that don't make game better. Forcing all pilots to use only longrange weapon and playing sniper while hiding behind buildings.

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1 second recharge time for assaults.

Make assaults sniper build even more effective. Just for taking down any light armored mech within range.

So, idea wont work on current heat penalty and weapons cooldown.
Also that recharge rate kill some weapon groups like
AC20\UAC20 and all UAC guns (except maybe UAC\AC2)
Make impossible to use any LRM. As well as Gauss on some medium mech and heavy. Forcing to place some ERLL and all.
Better than make impossible to use weapon at all every 2.5 seconds than make such rate of refilling ED, honestly.

[Znail]

This seems a bit more reasonable. The current energy recharge is a bit of an issue for assaults so this would help.

30 energy/sec 1.0 second recharge time for assaults.
25 energy/sec 1.2 second recharge time for heavies.
20 energy/sec 1.5 second recharge time for mediums.
15 energy/sec 2.0 second recharge time for lights.

[Kmieciu]

This is ridiculous. Just look at the light mech percentage in queue. Lights need buffs, not nerfs.

[Znail]

Kmieciu, on 29 August 2016 - 04:50 AM, said:

This is ridiculous. Just look at the light mech percentage in queue. Lights need buffs, not nerfs.

Not many lights that would even notice as they mostly come down below the alpha strike limit anyway.

[Tiantara]

Znail, on 29 August 2016 - 06:29 AM, said:

Not many lights that would even notice as they mostly come down below the alpha strike limit anyway.

- Yes they do. But after depleting energy pool they got penalty by chainfire. That make them heat faster. And not many light have fast dissipation of heat. So, even with alpha = 15 they got overheat after 3rd shot and become flash-blow-of-engine. Why alpha, they even now overheated greatly! Do you even run each light in game?

[Cold Darkness]

Tiantara, on 29 August 2016 - 07:02 AM, said:

- Yes they do. But after depleting energy pool they got penalty by chainfire. That make them heat faster. And not many light have fast dissipation of heat. So, even with alpha = 15 they got overheat after 3rd shot and become flash-blow-of-engine. Why alpha, they even now overheated greatly! Do you even run each light in game?

do you have any idea what you are writing about? even small pulse lasers have 2+ seconds recharge time. 15 energy/s would in most cases not even be close to a limiting factor on light IS mechs. clan mechs are slightly more affected by it, but by no means in a drastic manner.

[Tiantara]

Cold Darkness, on 29 August 2016 - 07:21 AM, said:

do you have any idea what you are writing about? even small pulse lasers have 2+ seconds recharge time. 15 energy/s would in most cases not even be close to a limiting factor on light IS mechs. clan mechs are slightly more affected by it, but by no means in a drastic manner.

- Yeap. If you do chainfire by double-tapping to fire faster (as many pilots of light mech do) you cycle from 4 till 8 lasers, each of which take it's ED points. After intense chainfire your heat raises as much as fast you go outside of ED limit. So - every 4th shot got more heat. Light mech cool off slower - because of less heatsink. So with that mechanic your mech become overheated even more than if all weapon stay in ED limit without penalty. Yeah, some of IS mech have 5.6-15 alpha or firepower at all. But we speaking about all light mech, not some few models which not even usable now. Take any mech with firepower about 20-25 and do double-tapping chainfire. Even now you get to high heat, whats happens if heat doubles?
I tasted at least half of light mech in different condition. Locust can do 4 alpha of 5 ML laser before overheat. Firestarter got heat even bigger. Urbanmech with AC20 - just pile of ash. I don't even mention 5xC-ERML Cheetah. Burn out after 1.5 alpha or 6 seconds of chainfire.

[Znail]

Tiantara, on 29 August 2016 - 07:50 AM, said:

I tasted at least half of light mech in different condition. Locust can do 4 alpha of 5 ML laser before overheat. Firestarter got heat even bigger. Urbanmech with AC20 - just pile of ash. I don't even mention 5xC-ERML Cheetah. Burn out after 1.5 alpha or 6 seconds of chainfire.

5 ML or AC 20 are totally unaffected by energy draw system due to being unable to use it up even if you fire as fast as possible.
The 5xC-ERML is limited by the alpha limit, but the energy regen change suggested in this tread wouldn't affect it as the lasers doesn't recharge fast enough. A fire starter with 8 SPL comes closer to the regen limit, but is still unable to use up energy faster then the my suggested regen rate (it would have issues with the OP suggestion though).

But I am fine with buffing up my suggestion with a further 5 energy/second for everyone. I was mostly being conservative. Energy Draw is not ment to limit DPS, but it does right now, so there needs to be an increase in energy regen, at least for larger mechs.

[Tiantara]

Znail, on 29 August 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

5 ML or AC 20 are totally unaffected by energy draw system due to being unable to use it up even if you fire as fast as possible.
The 5xC-ERML is limited by the alpha limit, but the energy regen change suggested in this tread wouldn't affect it as the lasers doesn't recharge fast enough. A fire starter with 8 SPL comes closer to the regen limit, but is still unable to use up energy faster then the my suggested regen rate (it would have issues with the OP suggestion though).

But I am fine with buffing up my suggestion with a further 5 energy/second for everyone. I was mostly being conservative. Energy Draw is not ment to limit DPS, but it does right now, so there needs to be an increase in energy regen, at least for larger mechs.

- I'm afraid about chainfire builds which now can use it, but with bigger delay first of cooldowned weapon deal more heat because of empty ED pool. Such as with 6-7ML or 4-5 used between shots from main weapon which take all points and left nothing for other weapons to shoot. Great example - Catapult K2 - 2xAC10 + 4xML - after fire from AC - you have 10 points of ED and with alpha of 4ML - you got overheat. Or if you chainfire - you take by little ED points which regens slowly and - you have not enough power for AC10, and your mech have more heat again, do overheat besides of heat from weapon and in final - dies from overheat. Lots of builds now got not only shutdown but heavy heat damage. Except mech with firepower less then 33.
Make heat even more - kill all mech with bad heat mechanic. And in same time make game worse. Longer regen = more heat = many mech become useless or not player friendly.
Can I ask a question... do you really love to play new mech purchased by earned in game c-bill or even from MC and discover that without proper, hard remake it useless? I think gamer with such experience just go off. Same with many trial builds who become hot, useless or even dangerous to use.
Right now stock ButterBee on PTS2 become mech which you cant use. It's hot... and die fast even in chainfire mode. Dont belive me - welcome to PTS and test right now. My nick the same.

Call me too old, but I really don't want see mech working like this even with chainfire (0.5 ED regen)

Spoiler

Heat go down pretty slow... And that make mech defenseless for longer time.

Edited by Tiantara, 29 August 2016 - 09:04 AM.

[cazidin]

Parashurama, on 29 August 2016 - 04:06 AM, said:

I feel assaults should benefit more than lights on the fire power scale.

I propose the following:

1 second recharge time for assaults.
1.5 second recharge time for heavies.
2.0 second recharge time for mediums.
2.5 second recharge time for lights.

Obviously the values need to be tested and tuned, but I think that would help the system.

I propose a counter-offer.

No.

[Khobai]

id rather see heavier mechs get more max energy than lighter mechs

but keep the recharge time the same

[TankBadger42]

Khobai, on 29 August 2016 - 09:02 AM, said:

id rather see heavier mechs get more max energy than lighter mechs

but keep the recharge time the same

Yes, the only differentiation I'd like to see is a larger pool for Med/Heavy/assaults.

However, if this came into play I'd like to see lower tonnage mechs dissipate heat faster, due to larger surface to mass ratio. (and for balance, to encourage small repeated bursts of damage.)

[Khobai]

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However, if this came into play I'd like to see lower tonnage mechs dissipate heat faster, due to larger surface to mass ratio.

wait what?

heavier mechs should dissipate faster becasue they have more surface area

[Tiantara]

TankBadger42, on 29 August 2016 - 09:10 AM, said:

Yes, the only differentiation I'd like to see is a larger pool for Med/Heavy/assaults.

However, if this came into play I'd like to see lower tonnage mechs dissipate heat faster, due to larger surface to mass ratio. (and for balance, to encourage small repeated bursts of damage.)

- I wrote before about ED limit by class.
Light mech - 15-20 ED pool.
Medium - 20-25 ED pool.
Heavy - 25-30 ED pool.
Assault - 30-35 ED pool.
All of that tweakable.
Even now - 30 ED pool for everyone pretty nice with 0.5 regen of 20 ed. We can lower 20 to 15, make 1s full regen.
Change big guns energy draw.

Khobai, on 29 August 2016 - 09:11 AM, said:

wait what?

heavier mechs should dissipate faster becasue they have more surface area

- Light mech now have really non-effective heatsink system. Many of IS mech don't even work without additional 2-3DHS.
Most of light who have no ECM die fast. And as fast go to overheat like they fire 4xPPC. Make light mech worse than they now - not a good idea.

[TankBadger42]

Khobai, on 29 August 2016 - 09:11 AM, said:

wait what?

heavier mechs should dissipate faster because they have more surface area.

More yes, but significantly more mass and a longer distance between the heat generating components and the sinks.

Yes, heavier mechs should heat up slower, but the extra tonnage and heat capacity is represented by the extra heat sinks you can add with you free tonnage.

Trust me, a larger spire of matter stays hot for longer and a smaller one

If you want I can get out my thermodynamics textbook and talk you through it.

[Znail]

Tiantara, on 29 August 2016 - 08:53 AM, said:

- I'm afraid about chainfire builds which now can use it, but with bigger delay first of cooldowned weapon deal more heat because of empty ED pool. Such as with 6-7ML or 4-5 used between shots from main weapon which take all points and left nothing for other weapons to shoot. Great example - Catapult K2 - 2xAC10 + 4xML - after fire from AC - you have 10 points of ED and with alpha of 4ML - you got overheat.

But the Catapult is a heavy mech! My suggestion would give it 25-50% more energy regen making it easier to fire all the weapons!

Increasing the cap is not really a good idea as that would obviously increase the alpha damage, but energy regen is on the other hand not nearly as bad to increase for larger mechs.

[Tiantara]

Znail, on 29 August 2016 - 09:39 AM, said:

But the Catapult is a heavy mech! My suggestion would give it 25-50% more energy regen making it easier to fire all the weapons!

- Yes it gives. But not so big. Even 15ED per 0.5s change situation. Because refill go not like in time but when cooldown over. So - 1 second to wait untill you get 25 ED worse than wait 0.3-0.5s to get 15. I agree even for 5 ED regen each 0.1s, too keep chainfire alive. Smaller portion but faster to feed high speed chainfire. That the point.

Znail, on 29 August 2016 - 09:39 AM, said:

Increasing the cap is not really a good idea as that would obviously increase the alpha damage, but energy regen is on the other hand not nearly as bad to increase for larger mechs.

- Yes. But if mech have 79firepower - it already have heat issue even when split alpha in two by 35+35. That yes - let's cap remain 30 for all.